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7-Plus-NGM Digest November 2006
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Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:22:38 -0600
From: Jim O'Connor
Subject: lawsuits and releases
I just posted an article I've been working on about using a liability release for scale railroads. I did some research and I wanted to share what I found out.
I think it's a good subject to cover at this time. If you are interested, take a look at http://www.discoverlivesteam.com/magazine/73.html.
You will also find a spot for your comments at that location.
Thanks, Jim O'Connor
(sorry for any cross postings you might get on this)
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2006 17:33:01 -0500
From: "russ@hobby-tronics.com"
Subject: RE: lawsuits and releases
Jim,
What about groups that haul the public, do they require the public riders to 'sign in' or do they use any kind of signed release? We do the 'speech' and have operator training is that enough? Would a safety statement on the
back of the customer ticket be enough if the 'speech' was modified to include reading the ticket?
Russ Wood
BOD
Klamath and Western Railroad
Chiloquin, Oregon
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Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2006 05:07:52 -0000
From: "Jim OConnor"
Subject: Re: lawsuits and releases
That's a great question. If the RR is on public land like a park, the government may not want to restrict use to only those that are willing to sign the release. In that case, a well posted notice of the rules and dangers may be all the government will allow.
Otherwise, I really don't know what's done typically. The survey I conducted did not ask what type of railroad operation it was. It might be good to break it down further on a follow-up survey.
Thanks,
Jim.
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Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2006 13:45:05 -0500
From: "russ@hobby-tronics.com"
Subject: RE: Re: lawsuits and releases
Jim,
We are the small portion of Train Mountain that is run By the Klamath and Western local club. We lease the right of way from the larger Train Mountain Museum. Our insurance carrier has not made a request for any kind of 'release' form to be used. We have introduced a documentation stream that records each train ride, number of riders, who was the engineer, conductor, and was the 'speech' given. We also record any incident such as derailment or whatever. We are currently a donation box funded group. We are contemplating going to a fixed fee ticket for each ride. The back side of the ticket would include the 'rules' as reviewed in the 'speech'.
As always thanks for taking the lead and raising the questions that need to be answered, we all appreciate your efforts.
Russ Wood
BOD
Klamath and Western
Chiloquin, Oregon
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Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 14:53:39 +1100
From: "George Paxon"
Subject: Re: For George Paxon
Howard,
Curious as best way to roll my tender side sheets. I have them all cut out and holes for rivets all drilled. I made a false tank of gal steel which will fit insde the tender shell to hold the water, so I won't need a water
tight shell. I have the tender built up through the deck now with the trucks and braking system all done. I am readsy to deck it but will wait until I get the tank all finished as the deck outline needs to be the same as the tank footprint.
What is your 2-8-2?
Geo.
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Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2006 07:02:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Brad Urani
Subject: Plastic Lumber
Dear list members,
My name is Brad Urani, I work for Plastic Lumber Co. of America in St. Louis, MO.
We produce (obviously) plastic lumber in standard dimensional sizes and also custom shapes including I-beams. I have reason to believe that I can supply plastic lumber to the miniature train industry cheaper than any of my competitors and I'm looking for distributors or end-users who can buy large quantities (preferably truckloads). If anyone can give me contacts for potential buyers, I would be much obliged.
Thanks you,
Brad Urani
Plastic Lumber Company of America
8000 Hall Street Bldg 5
St. Louis, MO, 63147
P: 314-382-7766
F: 314-382-7711
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Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:30:53 -0000
From: "Ed McCamey"
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber
Brad,
The web site is unproductive as to products and range of prices - needs a good bit of work. Naturally the live steam hobby is looking for a cost effective means of creating maintenance free trackwork - and plastic ties would go a long way to that end. But present costs have been elusive to all but the very well to do track owners and clubs.
Live steam tracks would need basically a source of 2x2 (nominal - 1-1/2x1-1/2) plastic ties at 13" to 16" in length (pending scale and roadbed design) and at net delivered to site costs around the range of $ 0.65 to $ 0.90 each to compete with the scrounger capability of present wood tie systems. Typical expected ordered quantities would be in 4- 6 thousand lots (with some smaller sample lots at a moderately higher premium acceptable).
This would NOT have to mean a first quality appearance tie - just a functional medium gray to black-brown (some variability) with essentially only two sides finished.
If production runs could meet these goals - then you would have a fairly large market to supply. Refine your technology and processes to target this set of parameters and you'll be a hero to the live steam hobby.
-ed mccamey-
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Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 09:49:04 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"
Subject: Re: Re: Plastic Lumber
I echo Ed's thoughts on product, pricing, and quantities. I would like to add another factor in the equation that has in the past been a big stumbling block to live steamers purchasing plastic ties in quantity, and that is the high cost of shipping.
Plastic ties have seen some success on the west coast partially because there are sources of supply close. Because of the weight and volume of plastic ties in bulk, shipping any distance is cost prohibitive. I have participated in a couple of studies on installing plastic ties in new railroads and we found that the cost of shipping was going to be as great or greater than the cost of the ties themselves. The big advantage of wood for tie material is that it is readily available everywhere and usually transportation costs are not a factor.
To be competative nationally, a supplier of plastic ties will need to address the shipping issue.
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:03:31 +1300
From: Chris
Subject: RE: Re: Plastic Lumber
Speaking for enthusiasts in Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere - you might find a small export market for right-priced plastic ties too!
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Bush Tramway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:26:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Brad Urani
Subject: Plastic Lumber
I've received alot of requests for 2x2s so I'm trying to come up with a strategy to please everyone. At first I misunderstood and thought everyone wanted a true 2x2 and was quoting $1.30 per foot minus 10% for full trucks, but if its a NOMINAL board you all want, meaning a true 1.5 by 1.5, I can do it for $.73 in gray in any length over 6 feet or $.65 for a full truck load (50,000 linear feet).
The problem with orders of less than 50,000 feet is that it takes me 3 hours to set up the machine which makes it less cost effective for me to run. For those of you who want to buy at $.65 but don't want full truckloads, I figured out how I can do it. I'll pigg-back small orders for RR ties onto large orders for my bigger customers who use the same boards for other applications. I run true 1.5 x 1.5s twice a month in the spring and summer, but December is slow so it could be a while before I run them again. The other option is for you all to work together and place several small orders simultaneously, since it doesn't matter to me if it all goes out on different trucks.
The remaining problem is shipping. For all of you in the Mid-West I can ship cheaply. For all of you in California, I guess what I really need is a West Coast distributor, which I'm working on.
I assume most of you want to cut your own ties, but for anyone who wants them pre-cut, we can do it for an additional $.25 per board. Starting January 1st, we'll have the ability to predrill them with up to 5 holes per board. I'm still working on pricing for this.
Feel free to call me at 314-330-4626.
-Brad
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 13:06:41 -0800 (PST)
From: James Keeline
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber
I believe that some railroads are using 2x4 lumber on end for their ties as they may be more stable in the ballast. Riverside Live Steamers has replaced most of their ties with 2x4 (lumber size) plastic ties.
How difficult is it to cut this plastic material to length. Does it bind in a circular saw? What kind of plastic is it?
James Keeline
San Diego, CA
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:12:00 -0500
From: Robert W Herronen RWHERRON
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber
How much is the 2 by 4 plastic "tie" stock then? I'd take 8' lengths since I cut mine down to 16".
#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#=#
Robert Herronen
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:53:20 -0000
From: "Ed McCamey"
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber
Let's see here.
Using 12 foot 1.5 x 1.5, I could get 8 ties per board length (~ 15" ties +/- kerf), these would be representative of 10' ties in 1.5" scale. (We do need the extra length for ballast stability).
Five thousand ties would be 625 12 foot lengths. That's 7,500 running feet, at $0.73 LTL, that's $5,475.00 or $1.10 per tie PLUS FREIGHT (ol' yuck).
With a truckload shared deal (somehow arranged) it's $ 4,875.00 (STILL PLUS FREIGHT - NOT YET FIGURED!), now being $ 0.98 per tie. Looks like we're still 35% -40% too much premium over the advantage of using wood ties (even treated well can be scrounged at $ 0.45 per tie - less if you don't want them to last too long). I know the maintenance factor alone will give some benefit to paying more - but we're just not there yet as I see the numbers, especially with the shipping factors.
This is a hobby. It requires a lot of resources, and ties are required - but the cost factor still has to be balanced with all the other pieces-parts, the labor (freely given), the time, and the "dis-staff" influences!
-ed mccamey-
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 22:45:55 -0000
From: "Tom C"
Subject: More Pics from the SRCL Ry
Hi guys,
We had a good weekend and I got some pics to post. We got our flat car done and in service and ran two steam engines around. Will add more later.
Cut lever up close - A end of #437
Finished stenciling - Our new flatcar ready to go in service
First revenue load on 437 - Putting it to work
SRCL Ry #437 and train at Sumac - Working its way up to Woodshill
Stencil #437 - Getting ready to add it's number
Stencil on new flat - The lettering being readied
Tom C.
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:36:08 -0800
From: "James Hoback"
Subject: Re: More Pics from the SRCL Ry
Thanks for the latest photos Tom. Are your center bearings, side bearings, queen posts, and turn buckles cast of iron or aluminum?
Regards,
Jim Hoback
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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 08:41:45 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"
Subject: RE: More Pics from the SRCL Ry
Jim, we use aluminum.
Later:
Tom Casper
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:57:56 -0000
From: "Ralph"
Subject: Golden Spike Ceremony
We are celebrating the completion of the 2-foot gauge outer loop with a Golden Spike Ceremony on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006. For those unaware, the outer loop mainline is over 6,200 feet in length. 2-foot and 7-1/2" gauges will be operating from 10am to 4pm.
For lunch the plan is to grill burgers and dogs on our new smoker/grill. Side dishes and cold drinks round out the fare.
We hope as many members as possible can join us to celebrate this milestone on the 2-foot gauge railroad. This is a big deal for Regg. He's been dreaming of building his own railroad for over 40 years. He laid the first rail in 1996. Come on out and have fun riding the trains.
All train buffs in the North Florida, South Georgia area are welcome. Visiting Engines/Engineers are always welcome to visit. Track is 7 1/2" gauge (4500 ft), and 24" hauge (6300 ft.)
NE Fla Live Steamers
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:18:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Brad Urani
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber
We can extrude the boards to any length so there's no waste when you cut them. By my math, full truckloads
of 50,000 feet x $.65 is $32,500. Shipping to California is about $2,500 or $.05 per foot so $.70 a foot or $.93 per 16" tie. For those of you closer to Missouri, shipping will of course be less.
-Brad
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:18:21 -0000
From: "Ed McCamey"
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber - Hey, just maybe in TX
OK, can we get 10-30 folks together here in Texas at 2-5,000 feet each to share a load?
I would buy 400 each 8' lengths of 1.5 x 1.5 gray for 3,200 feet.
Be willing to drive my truck somewhere here in TX to pickup from the trailer load delivered to some 'centralized' location.
With some ballast maintenance and realignment due to environmental movement over time - but no tie replacement, just think, track laid once for our own lifetime!
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 07:33:00 +1300
From: Chris
Subject: RE: Re: Plastic Lumber
What about sending them by rail ;-)
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Bush Tramway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:51:54 -0000
From: "Ed McCamey"
Subject: Re: Plastic Lumber
Missouri, USA to New Zealand? Man, what prototype shipper did you have in mind. 8-) Oh - yea, I see that "funny farm" moniker now!
P.S. Nice web site and what looks to be a fine RR in development. Too bad it's quarter inch off! How do you grade those 1:40 grades for reasonable consistency?
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:14:27 +1300
From: Chris
Subject: RE: Re: Plastic Lumber
I use a builders level & string line to peg it out at exactly 5m intervals on grade. Rough it in with the digger or by hand. When the grade is close - I use a self-leveling laser level. I set it up so it is exactly the height of the top of my shovel's business end, then measure a known distance along the ground (5metres), lock the self leveling meccanism and tilt the line until it matches the required grade. Then go back and shave any high points.
It is easy to stand the shovel and check using the laser - no strings etc in the way while I work.
I like to get the ground as accurate as possible before ballast/track. The old builders adage of getting your foundation perfect makes the rest of the building easy is only too true. However I HAVE been known to throw track across rougher ground and use the ballast later to level properly!
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Bush Tramway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:35:18 EST
From: douglasandcj@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Plastic Lumber
What, you must not need them until next season. US Railways only do things in train load lots.
Doug
Rock Creek Railway Company
10809 N.E. 158th Street
Kearney, Mo. 64060
Tel: 816-628-4353
Fax 816-628-2968
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:35:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bruce"
Subject: Re: Cutting Plastic Lumber
James,
I am using recycled plasting lumber for the ties on my home RR. I have done a lot of tie replacement on a club track where I used to live and raw fingers at the end of the day are not my cup of tea. I like to put 'em down and forget 'em. Check out my web page on some of the tests I did with the recycled plactic material as well as why I used it in the first place.
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391/whyplastic.html
Enjoy...
Bruce Mowbray
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 21:32:26 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza
Subject: Re: Re: Plastic Lumber
Could be arranged but it will cost you a fortune for the bridge. To you boat may be a better bet. :-)
kind regards
Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC.
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:47:35 +0800
From: "Craig Belcher"
Subject: Re: Cutting Plastic Lumber
Hi all,
Although this conversation doesn't affect me too much being in another country, i would like to offer a few thoughts.
| 1. | I am the perway super at my club (Castledare Miniature Railway) with some 15,000 ties to replace, i didn't want to be doing them repeatedly and this is where the plastic has a distinct advantage. |
| 2. | so far we have installed around 5,500 new ties, all made of plastic. initial cost is slightly more then the equivelant lumber however they are known to last 4-5 times as long as the lumber ones do, and at this stage, we have not found one that has become rotted or unusable. |
In short, look at it from the view that while the lumber sleepers may last you 10 years, for a fraction more cost up front, you will get plastic that should last to atleast 30 years...
30 YEARS without replacing a single tie? sounds like a good deal to me!
Craig Belcher
Per-way Super.
Castledare Miniature Railway
Perth Western Australia
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 02:55:46 -0800
From: "Geoff"
Subject: Re: Re: Plastic Lumber
You could do it by intermodal containers.
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:17:01 -0500
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Cutting Plastic Lumber
How long ago did you pay $ 0.54 for a real 2 x 2 x 16 as compared to the now offered 1.5 x 1.5 x 16 at $ 0.93.
--
Arno
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:54:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bruce"
Subject: Re: Cutting Plastic Lumber
Arno,
I purchased my lumber back in 2002. Keep in mind I bought 2 full bundles of 100 2x4x12' each direct from the manufacturer/plastic recycler and I also bought "factory seconds". This gave me an additional discount. Even
though they call them "seconds", they are of top quality as far as density and shape and are only lacking in perfect color. There are noticable color variations from board to board and there seem to be a few more odd color splotches here and there than there would be in a "perfect" board. This didn't bother me in the least.
Bruce
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 08:41:26 +0000
From: Phil Ashworth
Subject: RE: Cutting Plastic Lumber
Bruce,
Your last posting prompted me to explore the whole of your site.
What a fabulous website. It's so generous of you to share your experiences with others in the hobby, especially those of us in the UK who long for the wide open spaces of North America!
best wishes,
Phil Ashworth
Oxford UK
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 07:45:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "Bruce"
Subject: RE: Cutting Plastic Lumber
Phil,
Thanks for the kind words. Now that my house is complete, I plan to add to the website on a regular basis. I will be taking photos of the final grading of my ROW and posting them to the site. Now that the weather has
turned, I will be building some rolling stock and will probably have a few pages of info from them. Thanks again for the positiv feedback.
Bruce
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Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006
From: "Tom C"
Subject: More Pics from the SRCL Ry
Hi guys,
More pictures of november
SRCL Ry # 7 at High Point with 2 cars - Setting over cars for runaround move
SRCL Ry # 7 at Sumac MP#1.0 - By MP 1.0
SRCL Ry at Clear lake with #560 and Alina - Going to spur track with cars.
Tom C.
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 08:48:16 +1300
From: gscale@clear.net.nz
Subject: Steel boilers, again
Hi guys,
Thanks to all those that gave ideas and suggestions with regards to storing steel boilers. Now I want to run the
thing! What do you do for boiler treatment. I am aware of a product called something like LSB8000 but it is extremly expensive from our local model engineering supplier here in New Zealand, about $60 a bottle! Any other bright spark ideas out there, we have quite an extensive dairy industry here in New Zealand I wonder if there is a product they use that might be suitable for our little boilers?
I assume the product needs to break down any water born impurities, and also treat the insides of the boiler against rust....
Any help most appreciated.
Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley Railway
Cambridge
New Zealand.
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Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 02:39:57 -0000
From: "Ed McCamey"
Subject: Re: Steel boilers, again
Grant,
You could consider getting pure industrial water (de-ionized), it's not out of the tap - but cheaper than many chemical treatment methods. I'm not familiar with your neck of the woods, so specific cases and availability may need a bit more searching. Try a chemical supplier. You may want to invest in a Reverse Osmosis system and create a supply that way - but be sure to use some ph stabilizer, and possibly run it through a carbon filter before inputing to the RO pump.
Just some ideas to work with.
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR
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