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7-Plus-NGM Digest July 2008
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Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 23:21:45 -0500
From: From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Colorado Steam
Just got back from a 10 day 2,400 mile trip to Colorado. Got to ride both the Silverton and Chama trains. Had a real surprise when we got to Chama and found out the C18 which was restored in Durango was pulling trains. Not only was the C18 running but also one of the geese was taking passengers. What a treat to be able to see both in action. The goose really has a personality, it has a throaty roar along with the rattle of it's chain and creaking of the body. The C18 was having fun pulling it's consist of cattle cars, gondolas and bobber caboose. I had never ridden the Chama route and was very impressed with the scenery and layout of the line. I may need to volunteer for a week work session next summer.
With all the smoke I've inhaled, I'm really itching to get some more work done on my RR.
--
Rick Taylor
The Old Shop Teacher
Smack Dab in the middle of the US
Topeka, KS
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Casper
Subject: Re: [Colorado Steam ] Digest Number 1817
Hey BusBarn
Thanks for the report. What ya doin on ur RR?
Tom C.
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 01:54:21 -0000
From: "Steve Hughes"
Subject: Nuts and Bolts
With gas at an all time high, I have been wasting too much time and gasoline driving to the local hardware store to purchase the limited number of screws, bolts, and nuts needed for construction of my narrow gauge projects. Now I have started buying fasteners online through Fastenal. Using their website: http://www.fastenal.com, I can buy 100 pieces for less than 10 at the local store. I've stocked up on the fasteners I use and now spend more time working in my shop and less time driving to the hardware store.
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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 23:24:33 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Colorado Steam
Tom, good to hear from you again, wish I could have made it to the SR&CL this summer, I've watched the video made the day we visited a number of times and each time I get more inspired.
I'm currently putting together a new cast iron furnace (the old furnace would only get hot enough for aluminum, brass and bronze) and dusting off my old cope and drag sand pattern boxes. I have a few
working blueprints of the Maine narrow gauge swing motion trucks but hope to get a couple more, so I can start making patterns in the fall. I know you have a number of CAD drawings on line, but I would like a little more detail on such things as the journal boxes.
I noticed from the recent pictures of the SR&CL your crew has gotten the foundry up and running.
Also working on a semi-automatic concrete tie machine so once the track is laid the maintenance should be reduced. Around here wood rots pretty quick, even the treated stuff.
Rick
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:12:22 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"
Subject: RE: Digest Number 1818
Steve,
The SR&CL Ry is held together with Fastenal lag bolts. Jack has even had to by 3/8 bolts and nuts for the switches as he depleted his old supply. Even the splice plates use Fastenal bolts. He keeps the Battle Creek office humming.
Tom C.
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:14:42 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"
Subject: RE: Digest Number 1818
BusBarn,
Tell me more about your semi automatic tie thingy!!!
Later:
Tom Casper
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Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 23:14:08 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: RE: Digest Number 1818
Tom, I can't take full credit on the concrete tie machine, I'm on a casting list and a person on the list in Oklahoma who is making all the patterns and cast iron castings for a big boy in 1.5" scale had the idea first but hasn't gotten around to making one. Basically it's a flat belt 20" wide and runs around rollers set 10' apart. The molds are secured to the belt from the back, but the ends of the molds are not connected permanently to the sides so when they roll over the end rollers they open up and release the tie, kind of like taking ice out of an ice cube tray.
Each mold has tapered ends and sides so the tie is easier to remove. Having a slight taper on the sides of the tie should make the ballast tamp in tighter. The ties are made with the bottom of the tie facing up. I'm also experimenting with making mold sides and ends out of oak but first sand blasting the wood to bring out the grain. I'm hoping the new ties will retain some of the wood grain pattern so they aren't so smooth. I've seen concrete stamped and it really looks nice taking on the appearance of wood, brick, rock or tile.
One person paints the black mold release agent around each mold so the ties come out black, then places plastic screw anchors over the pins and lastly sits a piece of cut rebar in the mold. The plastic anchors suspend the rebar in the center of the mold. The molds then move to the center section where another person (or the same person) puts in the concrete and levels it off. I didn't mention the whole belt is running on a flat piece of plywood so it stays flat. The center 1/3 section of plywood is separate from the end pieces and has an air vibrator attached to it so the concrete is vibrated and fills all the gaps in the molds and around the rebar. The last 1/3 of the table is so the ties have a little curing time before being removed from their molds.
I am working on a lower belt which will catch the ties as they are being removed from the molds and take them to a long water tank which around here is sold for watering livestock. I will build a 4 wheel running gear for the water tank so it can be moved with a tractor. The ties will be placed in the tank and covered with water for
curing. I've read where 30 to 45 days under water will make the ties so hard you can't drill into them. After curing the water can be drained off and the water tank can be wheeled directly where needed.
From what I've figured these ties will take more time up front to make but should never need replacing and will cost less than treated wood and much less than plastic. This should also give me a solid roadbed for the bigger equipment running on the lighter rail.
Rick Taylor
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:44:03 EDT
From: GengH@aol.com
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1818
The tie machine sounds really interesting and very clever. Do you have any photos you could post?
Thanks.
George Hoke
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Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:07:27 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"
Subject: RE: Concrete
BusBarn,
Very interesting idea. I would like some pics also. Interested in what you put in the mold to hold the rebar and anchors. Curing underwater, very interesting also. You plan on using aluminum rail?
Later:
Tom Casper
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 06:35:49 -0000
From: "edgarcorny"
Subject: Re: Concrete
Hi,
Concrete uses Portland Cement, sand, and gravel. The concrete is specified as the strength it has after a 30 day curing time. The ultimate strength of concrete is an asymptote." Asymptotes are formally defined using limits." An asymtotic limit is the apparent "final" value - in this case it would be the ultimate strength of the concrete. The value that the concrete always tries to reach but never gets to.
The reason for this limit is that all the cement in the concrete is not wetted and therefore not able to chemically react to bond with the other components.
Under drought conditions, submerging concrete will allow it to continue to set properly. Never mix concrete or Portland Cement at near freezing conditions. The water will turn to ice and stop the setting of the concrete.
The rebar installed in the tie allows the concrete that has an extremely low tensile strength to take a tensile load by using the rebar for the tension. Concrete is fine for compression.
If you want to better prevent the ties from cracking over time, use a pre-stressed concrete approach. This is making the rebar longer than the concrete casting form. Place the rebar into the empty form through the holes in the end of the form. Then use a clamp on the rebar that presses the form ends. This puts the rebar under tension to start with. Then pour the concrete, once set, remove the clamps, trim the rebar, and the concrete will hold the rebar in permanent tension. With the concrete in permanent compression, it will have a less tendency to crack.
Never use salt water in a concrete mix. The additionally impurities with sea water will cause casting problems. The concrete buildings in Miami poured in the 1920s crumbled in a white powdery form in the 1970's. Also, do not use salt water in concrete when using re-bar. The same Miami study found that the rebar had rusted away and had been the cause of the collapse of a few structures.
I hope this may be of use for you.
EC
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:12:44 +1200
From: "Chris"
Subject: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Hi All,
Thinking about building a Roger Marsh Design known as 'Tinkerbell' and interested in getting an idea as to who can supply castings at what sort of cost.
You see the trade-off for me is cost of transporting heavy castings vs doing my own - a consequence of living way down at the bottom of the world!
I understand a Mr Finchley may have been able to supply the drawings in the past, but I cannot find any web reference to him, Roger Marsh or his company Minimum Gauge Railways.
The only Roger Marsh design I have been able to find is the Romulus on Reeves site.
Anyone got any other links I may be able to follow up on?
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Railway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:21:40 +1200
From: "John Oxlade"
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Chris, contact me off-list, I have a lead for drawings and castings in NZ.
Regards
John
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:37:43 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: RE: Concrete
Haven't got it all together yet, but I'll take some photos when it's up and running.
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:51:47 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: RE: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
Tom, the rebar is sitting on the plastic anchors which are sitting upside down on nails which poke up through the bottom of the mold. The nails sit straight up so the tie can fall out of the mold easily.
I will be using aluminum rail and plan on using a small pad of roofing tar paper under the rail over the tie. I understand the concrete may corrode the aluminum.
There is a web site (I believe it's a RR back east) which I can't find right now where they show the process of making concrete ties. The difference with their process and what I'm doing is they are using indiviual one peice molds and have to break the ties out by hand. Like I said earlier, I can't take all the credit for the process, just improving on what others have already done.
Rick
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:59:02 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
EC, thanks for the information. I know concrete isn't a perfect material for the RR ties, but I think for what are doing and the conditions we are working in concrete will work well.
Rick
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:13:09 -0500
From: "leon risenhoover"
Subject: Re: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
I don't know if concrete is very good for ties but the railroads are using them. forget about trying to prestress them unless you can stretch (and hold for a month) the rebar about 1/32 inch. concrete doesn't get hard because it dries out. it must be kept moist as long as you can. spalling can be stopped if you get enough air in the mix, it needs air pockets in it to hold up to freezing temps and lastly there are different grades of Portland depending
on where it is going to be placed.
Leon in Luther Ok.
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Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 23:30:26 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"
Subject: RE: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
Boys:
They aren't all that great on the mainline either. I've got photos I've taken of the tops "spalled" off and the little pre-stress wires sticking out. The ends have a tendency to break off outside the rails. It must not have occurred to anybody that concrete is some softer than granite ballast either....after a while, most of them are rounded on the bottom. If you go on the ground on concrete, all that's left is rip-rap, or back track ties with half the rail clips missing. That however is with 20,000 ton trains at speed, I expect they'd last OK on 7-1/2".
Mike Decker, on the BN
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:44:44 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Chris,
Roger's company is long gone. The rights to the drawings and castings were bought by Chris Fincken, but Chris would appear less active now than in the past.
If John Oxlade's lead doesn't get you far, contact me and I'll do what I can to help. I'm currently building two slightly modified Tinkerbells - there are several drawbacks with the original design which I'm designing round with these two.
Peter
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 06:49:15 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Forgot to say, you can see how far I've got on my website http://www.beevers.org.uk/min_rly/min_rly.htm
Peter
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:46:21 +1200
From: "Chris"
Subject: RE: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Thanks for the Advice Peter, I came across your website just the other day and have it bookmarked to watch your progress with interest.
John's lead has led me back via a mutual acquaintance (NZ is very small) and I have my fingers crossed we can find one or two like minded souls to do something around a theme here.
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Railway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 02:47:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Larry McCarthy
Subject: Re: Concrete
Rick,
What are you using for a "release" agent?
Larry Mac
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 19:35:37 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Chris,
The main thing to remember is to make the cab longer. As drawn it's 27" long and you will toast you knees on the backhead. My two will have 33" . . .
Peter
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:03:03 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"
Subject: RE: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
I agree with Peter...when I visited England in 1968, Rodney Weaver took me to Teysley (sp?), where I met Roger and drove Tinkerbell. At 6'2", my legs were a little too long for comfort :>)
Mike Decker
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:07:27 -0000
From: "edgarcorny"
Subject: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
Hi Rick,
I think concrete is a great idea. I've never had the space or time to try out a concrete tie. I was considering putting in a concrete deck bridge and using something like the "pretsel" that they use in 1':1" scale but I lost my job before I could really get it started.
However most people do not understand some of the fine points in concrete mixing.
I was just offering some extra items to think about, not to mean they are needed.
From what I understand of your process, it sounds good.
Good luck and take some photos and post them if you would.
EC
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Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:26:37 -0000
From: "Peter Jackson"
Subject: Re (Concrete) Digest Nomber 1819
Hi All
Here in NZ the Railways used concrete sleepers on the mainline and have no trouble at all. NZ Railways first used concrete sleepers way back in 1960 as an experiment.
About 1980 they started to use then in all resleepering around the country. To my knowledge and what I have been told there have been no problems with the sleepers.
All the concrete sleepers that are for the South Island NZ are made in China.
Over here there put a thin piece of rubber under the rail. Travelling over concrete sleepers is very smooth and comfortable
Peter
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:13:01 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"
Subject: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
concrete ties?? Snap/Groovy Track?? Hummm.
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:49:50 +1200
From: "Chris"
Subject: RE: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
I have located a local (NZ) tink and will be visiting when I can arrange it.
I noted this extension on your website - does this mean Roger liked warmer knees :-)?
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Railway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:50:53 +1200
From: "Chris"
Subject: RE: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
That's my height. So longer - or thicker trousers is the order.
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Railway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:57:15 +1200
From: "Chris"
Subject: RE: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
John - You are welcome to come run with us.
I just looked over your website - very nicely done sir! May be interested in some of that rail when you get a price, and all ears about the rolling stock kits too.
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Railway
Auckland, New Zealand
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:43:11 -0400
From: rghtathome@aol.com
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Okay Boys....Sitting here reading the chot chat about being too BIG; I am 6'-10" tall and weigh in the 400 lb range....
While I would love to ride in or on....I think it may be near impossible....
Whose website is that again?
Beevers???
Thanks
Chris S.
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:26:04 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Nothing's impossible, some things are just more challenging than others.
The miniature railway part of my website (with links to pages about the VERY big tink I've 99% completed, plus pages about the pair of almost standard (well, compared to the last one, anyway) standard engines I've started to build) can be found at:
http://www.beevers.org.uk/min_rly/min_rly.htm
Regards
Peter
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:40:05 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Concrete
Larry, my release agent for now is just motor oil mixed with some carbon black for coloring. There are commercially made release agents and I may try some, but for what I'm doing a thin coat of oil paints on really easy. In shop class I've had kids cast all sorts of things in concrete and oil is a pretty good release agent. Of course with the price of oil these days, the commercial release agents may be cheaper!!
Rick Taylor
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:51:35 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
Thanks for the words of encouragement EC, I know it will still be a lot of work, but even using wood is a lot of work with the cutting and pre-drilling, then the eventual replacing in a few years. Hopefully I can get a few friends together and have some tie casting work sessions.
Rick Taylor
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Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 22:58:55 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
Leon, I didn't know you were on this list. I want everyone to know it was Leon with the original idea of the semi-automatic tie machine. I knew I wanted to make concrete ties after seeing the website from back east where they were making ties in separate molds, but when Leon mentioned put the molds on a moving belt, it really made sense.
Thanks again for the idea Leon, your work is blazing multiple trails for me with your cast iron furnace and pattern making ability. Looking forward to making the trip south again to see what you've accomplished since my last visit.
Rick Taylor
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 01:04:53 -0400
From: rghtathome@aol.com
Subject: Re: Concrete
Release agent for making concrete uprights for?Waushakum's high line track?was used crank case oil....
Works well....
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 00:18:32 -0500
From: "leon risenhoover"
Subject: Re: Re: [Concrete] Digest Number 1819
I lurk a few lists. mass production man. your going to need thousands of these things so don't make em one at a time I say.
Leon in Luther Ok.
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:54:41 -0500
From: "Rick White"
Subject: Re: Concrete
Larry Mac,
We are using old oil mixed with diesel and sprayed onto the molds. See http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/livediesel/photos and go to "HALS Concrete Ties" at
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/livediesel/photos/browse/bf78 to see some of the process. Mix 25% oil and 75% diesel. Spray the molds just before using and before putting in the rebar and the plastic screw holders.
You want the plastic screw holders and the rebar to stick to the concrete, not release.
Rick White
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:44:28 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1818
Rick W, thanks for posting the HALS pictures. I wish I lived closer, I would love to have a work party and assembly line some concrete ties. Why did you switch from using wood to concrete? Are you putting anything under your aluminum rail?
Rick Taylor
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Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:55:10 -0500
From: BusBarn@Prodigy.net
Subject: Ballast Tamper
Rick W,
About the ballast tamper in your picture files,
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/livediesel/photos/view/bf78?b=5
the belt from the engine, what is it running to? Does the tamper work pretty well? Does the vibrations tire the operator? Any suggestions for the next model?
Thanks,
--
Rick Taylor
The Old Shop Teacher
Smack Dab in the middle of the US
Topeka, KS
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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:30:25 -0500
From: "Rick White"
Subject: Re: Concrete
Rick Taylor,
Yes, we are putting the concrete ties under aluminum rail, and without anything inbetween. This is different from the actions of Jim Goodson and Bruce Roosa on the Comanche & Indian Gap Railroad (see
http://home.att.net/~cigrr/2001Fall/ and some more at http://home.att.net/~rick_white/ ) where they put pieces of rubber inner tube between the tie and the rail because they are concerned about corrosion.
HALS switched to concrete when CCA lumber stopped being available at the local lumber yard. Since then we have come into a truck load of CCA lumber that has been shared between the WB&S (see links above), the C&IG (see links above), HALS, and here on my railroad. But, that is running out and we will have to get a truck load of something, hopefully plastic. But we keep making concrete ties because they are good and they last. I am on the concrete tie crew for the forth Saturday of the month. We try to get a batch of 100 made each Saturday, but we are not hitting even 50% so far this year. We have 5000 ft of rail to put down at HALS for an expansion and need 1350 ties. If it was wood, we would use 1500 ties. We are saving some CCA treated wood for switches.
Rick White
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Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:19:53 -0500
From: "Rick White"
Subject: Re: Ballast Tamper
Rick Taylor,
The photos show the first generation unit. Mike Hales built a second generation then took it all apart and built a third generation unit, which I have. Then he was still not satisfied and now has his forth generation unit out, which is at the WB&S ( see http://home.att.net/~rick_white/ for photos of the WB&S ). These are from Thor Tampers, Mike's company. Reach Mike at bluehorizons12000 @yahoo.com (remove spaces around the @).
There is a slight vibration, but the changes made between generations have reduced that from a modest vibration that only let you use it an hour at a time, to a slight vibration, that I can stand for four hours at a time. Well worth having. Can be set to tamp from 1 to 4 inches deep. We use at 2 inches at HALS with its 2 by 2 inch ties and at 4 inches here and at the WB&S where we use 2 by 4 ties.
While it is easy to adjust the depth, since each location mentioned has a tamper, they are not ever changed after the initial adjustment.
Rick White
Central Texas
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Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2008 10:10:34 -0500
From: "leon risenhoover"
Subject: Re: Concrete
they also make colorant for concrete, just toss in a table spoon when mixing you got color all the way through so if it chips it won't be white
Leon in Luther Ok.
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Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:41:10 +1200
From: "John Oxlade"
Subject: Re: Roger Marsh's Tinkerbell
Peter,
I've just gone back and looked at your website. What does SMR stand for? I have put a link to it on my site but the full name would be handy.
Also, I have pretty normal eyesight and the green and blue backgrounds are quite hard on the eyes. Might I suggest changing the colour-scheme to something a little easier to read?
The site is great, I wish I had the time and equipment to build a Tinkerbell myself. As I don't, I undertook some "chequebook modelling" recently and bought myself a loco here in New Zealand.
Kind regards
John
http://www.worldrailfans.info/7.25inch/
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