Does anyone know of any resources detailing bridge and tunnel construction in the model gauges? I have Civil Engineering for Outdoor Railroads volume 1 but volume 2 that is due out soon is the one covering bridges and may or may not cover tunnels too.
Hi John - if I can be of help and answer questions about what we are doing here on the Winter Creek - perhaps we should do this via the group in case anyone else is interested?
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:40:11 +1200
From: John Oxlade
Subject: Re: Bridges and tunnels
Hi Chris,
I am aware of the photos and discussion on your site about your tunnel - and your new bridge looks very good too.
My wife and I are looking at a piece of land at the moment (not sure if we'll get it, it depends on what the authorities will let us do), but if we do and we go ahead, I'll likely be looking to build two curved trestles and two curved tunnels, so I can use all the help I can get.
My first idea for tunnels is 6' diameter sewer pipe, the only slight "problem" I would have would be trimming them so they fitted together to form a curve. You can't really put a 6' concrete pip in a mitre box and take a hacksaw to it!
Cheers,
John
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 07:29:34 -0400
From: Ralph Reese
Subject: RE: Bridges and tunnels
Volume 3, in preparation now is supposed to deal with tunnels.
Use the 'manhole riser rings' as they are called - 500-600mm long sections designed to stack together vertically for large junctions. These could be easily put together on a curve and a bit of concrete to fill the gaps
2)
There is a Northern hemisphere club that cut the pipes in half lengthwise and placed them on two stacks of concrete blocks to get the horseshoe shape. There tunnel was curved. Someone may remember the web address of the photos I saw
3)
A Melbourne club as done as you want with full sized pipes. Remember at 12m radius you are only correcting the angle every three metres by a couple hundred mm
4)
Make your own in situ. Using reinforcing wire and the trowelling methods of the concrete tank builders. I watched a couple of guys build my Neighbours 30,000 L water tank this way
Also - have you been to Driving Creek Railway in Coromandel? Each of their tunnels is built by a different method. I am sure Barry would be happy to let you wander up the property for a look-see. If you catch him at the right moment he is bound to offer some sage advice, but he is very shy and prefers to avoid the public on busy days. Incidentally he has several fine viaducts. I briefly helped during the reconstruction of one span on #2 a few years ago. Amazing.
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:03:55 -0600
From: Terry Miller
Subject: Re: Bridges and tunnels
Chris,
Have you talked to demolition companies in you area? Some of these type of companies, get excavation jobs where there are large pipes needing to be removed. Steel pipes are often sold as scrap but the concrete pipes
need to be broken up to be recycled or hauled away. Easier and cheaper for them to sell to you and it won't be a big deal if the pipes are not in the best of conditions.
We also use square box culvert here. These would make a great tunnel. Some are shorter than they are wide so you could stand them on end to get overhead clearance.
You might also talk to a local fabrication plant about purchasing rejects. Pieces that don't meet specifications or pieces that were ordered and never picked up, are often broken up for recycle. Again, cheaper to sell to you than to spend the time to break them and recycle the remains.
Thanks for the ideas Terry. I have a deep cutting about 5 months ahead of the current railhead. Would like to do a concrete tunnel there - was thinking of pushing on and retro the tunnel at a later (and more financial!) time. I know a couple of people that know others in the industry and it will be worth following up with. Thanks
You have the idea for concrete pipes I had some 12-15 years ago.
Most concrete pipes have steel reinforcing in them.
When concrete pipes are removed from an existing sewer or waterway, typically they start a trench down to the pipe at a manhole. They then go into the pipe and knock a hole in it for a hook. This could be as far as 30-60 feet depending on the overburden. They then take a chain with a hook inside the pipe and attach it to the hole. Then they use a crane or a bulldozer to pull the other end of the chain and rip the concrete pipe out.
Since the pipe needs to be broken up anyway, there is no need to preserve the pipe like a cast iron pipe which might be reusable.
I looked into the cost of having a couple of sections of concrete pipe removed in one piece to use for a quick way to form a faux stone arch bridge. The cost of removing the concrete pipe for it to be reusable was about 75% of the cost of a new concrete pipe!
Another point concerning concrete pipe, concrete pipe fragments can be used as fill as well as any rock or stone. Think of concrete as a man-mad stone.
So "hauling away" concrete pipe will not always happen. It depends on the site and how much fill they need.
Chris, I too would like to hear how you are tackling your tunnels.
I'm planning on a RR tunnel with side tunnels to connect my house to my shop. Here in Tornado alley I would like to have a shelter for my family and any visiting engineers. I was planning on using ferroconcrete and have started purchasing rebar. I do have a friend who rents equipment for Cat and can give me a pretty good deal over a weekend or two.
Hi Rick - if you look at the wintercreek.net.nz website under projects there is a photo set showing construction of the current wooden tunnel. I haven't built the concrete one yet so am interested in your methods too!
Subject: CE book series - was:Re: Bridges and tunnels
Hi,
Volume 2 does not have any coverage on tunnel construction. It is strictly bridges.
Due to the recent issues with land permits and legal issues, several people have wanted a volume 3 to cover these points. Since it is not apparent at the moment how much of a book that will take, it is planned that V3 will include that as well as tunnels and probably grade crossings.
As I understand it, V4 will probably be a step by step How-To layout a live steam track. This is in the air as it might also come out as a DVD.
Since most people are building their tracks as a hobby and as inexpensively as possible, Doug is considering offering his services free when he has time from his business of preserving (by scanning) antique railroad books such as Official Guides to CD. After it is done, if you want to pay him a token fee for his help, it will of course be appreciated. However the point is to help out people in their hobby.
If you are interested in some help with any design point of a live steam track and/or have a tunnel to be built or designed (that can be used as an example for V3) contact me back channel and I'll see he gets it so he can contact you directly.
My comments on concrete pipes come from Doug himself.
I was on a train day at the club layout and set up a consist of logcars and some MOW-cars. The whole train is over 30' long. With new piston seals, the loco runs great and had no problem while handling this heavy load.
You'll find some photos on my website and a clip at youtube.
Several railways in the UK have used a proprietory steel corrugated tube. See the following link www.tubosider.co.uk, I am sure similar products are available
worldwide. On their website you can download installation instructions etc.
The biggest tunnel in the UK is at Pecorama at Beer in Devon using this construction method.
This form of construction has also been used to construct some bridges on the new Welsh Highland Railway, whr.bangor.ac.uk look at Phase 4 pictures.
I do not know if this source has already been mentioned but we got our tunnel material (steel - 7'diam) used and free from the highway department. The ones we got even had a elastomeric coating on the inside of two so the fisheries folks were happy as we used one of those for a creek diversion under the track.
We had to get a truck to go pick it up about 50 miles away but we got four 20' sections and two connector rings for the price gas. One of our members had a big enough truck to do the whole thing in two shots but any full size pickup will be able to handle one at a time on a car hauler trailer. They only weigh a couple of thousand lbs total.
Ask around as they seldom re-use the old ones and they have to pay someone to take them to the scrapper when they widen or redo highway projects.
I took some lumber, screws and nails, 1/2" water pipes and 90° fittings and an old tank, bought some time ago for a tank car...
The result is a simple backwoods water tower for my logging line. Some progress photos and neraly finished views are hosted here =>
The trestle bents are build out of wood, cutted to size on a circular table saw. The tank will rest on three bends.
To complete the bents, I nailed two boards in diagonal direction to the bends. This gives a lot of stability to the bents itself.
Next was to raise them up to the superstructure. 6 more boards are used to hold the bents in position and alligned.
To support the water tank, a cross frame of bars has been placed on top of the superstructure.
That's how it looks for the moment. Now I need some hardwork for the spout.
This was made from 1/2" water pipe with some fittings for the elbow and head. This prinzip was used on West Side Lumber Co. oiling facilities for example.
There's only a small gap between the railroad and the tank, but it will be enough to pass through while riding on the tender. But the tank should be placed on a spur track for saftey.
This view clearly shows the spout with elbow and counter weight. You can also see the globe valve below the tank.
Just wondering what Aluminum Rail is worth now a days. Looks like we might be coming into at least 1,000 feet of the stuff and at least 2 switches. Since we are a 15" gauge RR it won't work for us. So will be selling it. So wanting an idea on the value of that rail and of course if you are interested feel free to contact me.
Is there a good source out there for steam engine parts?
Injectors / steam pumps / etc.
Thanks,
Terry
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:37:45 -0700
From: Peter Moseley
Subject: Re: 2 1/2" parts
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