Now this is what makes railroading interesting is old footage of things so we can see what it really was like not just think it. Thanks Dan for the pix.
Boyd
Subject: Anyone traveling from the East Coast to Train Mountain?
Ladies/Gentlemen,
I am interested in some equipment in the tPortland Oregon area.
The guy is willing to deliver to Train Mountain..
I am trying to see if anyone from the East Coat will be traveling out and back and willing to haul back two RMI side dump cars for me...
In lieu of shipping costs I am willing to supply gas money?
I have posted two new HDVs 1080i of a ride on "Link" Light Rail from Sea Tac Airport to Rainier Beach Station, 13:25 HRS 4-1-10. It is in two parts due to the actual length which is 12:02 minutes. The train hits speeds of 55+ MPH and is the most fun part for me on the entire line.
Hubert, I joined this group because of the narrow gauge scale trains. As you know I have the narrow gauge builders group. We stick to our gaugees. Everytime I log into your group looking for helpful info, I see all the posts and vids of full scale trains. I guess your group has now becme a full scale train group. I am sorry to say that I am going to have to quit your group and allow more space for the (toy) trains, as some of your guys call them. Thanks for the years of great info and posts in the past.
Thanks Bill
Date: Thursday, April 08, 2010 9:59 AM
From: Daniel F Morris
Subject: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Hi Daniel,
I'm a follower of this Group and the main interest are supposed to be 7 - plus Gauge models........either you do not know how to measure lenghts and widths OR you are just plain ignorant. Please start your own Group ( Light Rail HDV) in which you could post your crap for those that's interested.
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Johan
Be careful...
I ventured down this road before and was scorned badly by a few individuals;
Most people on here just delete Daniels posts when they come up...
I agree with you that he should have his own group....
But there are people on here who like variety
And he has a fan following for his Light Rail videos...
Subject: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
I agree, this is supposed to be a 7+ narrow gauge modelers disscussion group, please keep the mainline full size trains in other groups. That's why there are specific groups on here, right?
Subject: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Hello all,
originally, I didn't plan to comment this thread, but now I have to do.
Over the last days, I got some requests to stop the links to sites with a content of non narrow gauge or not backyard railroads, and also got messages, that members plan to unsubscribe because this messages.
Here is my comment:
For my person, I visit the other sites, if it seems to be of interest for me. The rest, I only ignore.
For the narrow gauge content or backyard railroad content, it seems, during the past months it dried out and their where not really much messages. We had much more in the past, and if I see,what's going on on the Narrowgaugebuilders-list, I really envy the owner.
So, my wish to all be tolerant and delete the message, if it's not of interest to you. And also to the members, who are not happy with this post, use the group for content, which fits in the main-theme.
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Hi Once Scorned,
Warning noted. It's really sad the way the world turns out to be at present. People just force their way into other's everyday lives, where we try to conform to the normal living.
Now a totally irelevant posting started here (a while ago) with followers of some of this Groups members......Is it too much to ask for these persons to start another Group? One which will satisfy their craving for HDV stuff? I suppose the opportunity were grabbed because no more postings of 7-plus stuff are coming forth.
Cheers to everyone, I'm only airing my views and certainly not trying to confront the HDV poster and his followers. :-)
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
To those below get a life as just delete them Hubert said its ok so please just go with the flow there is nothing wrong with his posts as most days there is nothing on here. I am so sick of people saying start another group.
Again just delete it and open your eyes to others it hurts nothing having those posts here and to think differently is the problem.
Boyd
into all forms of railroading and gauges from Z to full scale. Have fun that is what life is all about and Dan has fun I know him personally.
Subject: Re: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Sorry Hubert, I read this after I sent my reply, after talking to you the others should also meet you in person as you are one interesting fellow to say the least as your interest are whatever is fun in railroading. Hope to see you at the next big meet at Train Mountain and anyone you bring to it also. I will have a place two miles west by the end of summer.
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
I think that you Johan P should watch what you say on here or anywhere else keep those kind of comments to yourself as it is something not needed anywhere. Don't talk down or degrade someone like you did find another place to surf.If you feel that you need to make them form your own web site please
We are all here on earth to live life and enjoy it so please go rain on someone else's parade.
Boyd
a friend of Dans also but a railroader of all sizes and scales.
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 18:52:23 -0400
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Hello Johan,
We all have our own little quirks and quarks.
I not only appreciate to hear about different avenues, I was deeply disappointed when the old [Livesteamers] group waned away to very few postings because of all the Special Interest Groups (like this one) and forums springing up everywhere.
Hubert seems to echo my thoughts somewhat in his pointing to the [Narrowgaugebuilders] where a lot of posters used to be regulars here.
If list content is really so upsetting that a simple [Delete] will not suffice you may have to start your own moderated list.
All that would be a moot question if there were lots of contributions, in which case questionable posts will be in such a minority to be generally ignored if on no interest.
Some of my spare time is taken up by helping to build the 7¼" - 7½" railroad and track to get ready for the official opening of the Toronto Roundhouse Park May 29 - 30, during the 2010 Toronto Doors Open event
opposite the CN Tower.
Some of the progress can be seen by scanning down on the articles at www.trha.ca/news.html .
(Note that the fitting and assembly of the 3-3/4" scale Sweet Creek on 7½" track, starting at side bar 01/01/2009-02/01/2009 [specifically 1/13/2009] is only part of the museum mandate, the part I am interested in so, don't get upset about the full size pictures on that site.)
--
Cheers,
Subject: Re: Two New "Link" Light Rail HDV 1080i Videos Have Been Posted 4-7-10 14:46 HRS
Hello Arno,
I have to agree with you 100% and must say that after cooling down, I must admit that I have overreacted. I am a member of Bill's Narrowgaugebuilders Group and should rather have concentrated there, on the topic that we love, than crying here about the off topic materials.
I apologise to those persons that felt offended.
Arno thanks for the Link and if the Website includes Fullsize stuff, I definately won't be upset, but rather enjoy it. The reason being it's not a specialised Group.
Kind Regards, to all,
Subject: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Hubert,
Thank you for listening. Was not sure what you were saying though in your message, so I just re-read the home page of the group...
:
:
The 7+ Narrow Gauge Modellers group should bring all narrow gauge friends together, wich run their backyard models on 7.25" track-gauge or wider.
:
:
Members from all around the world are welcome.
:
:
5" gaugers are also welcome, but the focus should be on 2.5" scale or bigger.
:
What about a compromise, instead of off-topic posts to fill the quiet times, we encourage folks to post messages about 7+ narrow gauge stuff? Maybe sharing progress reports and pictures of their Winter projects.
Frolin
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:02:26 -0400
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Frolin,
Why are you holding back?
Why not do what you suggest for others to do.
Here's a part of my progress report, the conduit and junction boxes mounting for the head and cab lights of the Sweet Creek.
--
Cheers,
Arno
Subject: Re: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
In the spirit of things, here is the current progress on my RMI Prairie project.
Not sure if I have posted this here or not, but here is the current progress on my RMI Prairie tender, just about ready for paint. A little more electrical to do, plumbing is done. Then on to the locomotive.
Subject: Re: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Good thought Mr Marek but doesn't seem to happen much so to fill it with full scale or any scale to keep the web site going with some at least looking there is also nice.
Boyd
into all scales and the people who like railroading in general.
Phil,
Thanks for the link and the superb pictures of the construction process. Great workmanship. I echo Frolin's words about telling us about possible problems you've encountered and subsequent remedies done.
Cheers,
Johan.
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:21:09 -0700
From: George Potter
Subject: Re: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Hi Phil,
Thanks for pointing to the pictures - looks good, and I found one more good idea.
I have been looking for a high pressure electric water pump for some time - and your photos gave me enough info to finally find one (and order it). I've been wanting to add a pump "before" my cross head pump (both to prime it ..... and also as another way to get water into the boiler - when all else fails) - but hadn't found any that would go over 100 PSI.
Subject: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
I put a electric water pump on one of my engines. Just take a Shurflow RV water pump. Take the top off of it, which is the pressure regulator, and cap it off. Then the pump will pump over 150 psi of water into your boiler. It works really well for auxiliary cars say behind a Chloe or other small engine. Hope that helps.
Erin Swain
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:20:36 -0400
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Hello Phil,
I only just now got around to looking at the forum pages. Really great stuff.
We built the loco and tender simultaneously in two different places. None of the fellows building the tender is on any eMail lists so I forwarded the URL to them.
I particularly like your electric feed water pump which will give a lot of ease of mind if relative new engineers give rides to the public and get distracted. Come to think of it, the distraction may even be more applicable to we older guys when being fired at with questions from five directions by visitors after a ride. (Been observing that a lot while doing station master duties on public run days at the Richmond Hill LS [north of Toronto]).
Was reminded of the photos on my website taken a few years ago on the Sandy Ridge & Clear Lake Railway. The 1/3 scale, two-foot gauge based, railroad up in Michigan. Thought would re-share the sub-page link... http://www.frolin.net/mmgs/srcl/index.html
Funny how years later I took on doing the web-site for the railroad, and now maintaining and loading photos there, with a big site re-vamp coming... http://www.srclry.com
In the spirit of generating relevant message traffic on the group I will discuss my "winter project". I had previously built a coal fired 2 1/2" scale NG 2-4-0 Porter steam locomotive. Some pictures appear on the 7+ NGM yahoo group photos in the folder TRR#7. I really need to update that folder with more recent pictures, but that is another story.
I love narrow gauge steam and after having run TRR#7 for several years, and enjoying each and every run, I began to realize it would be great to have a small narrow gauge steamer that didn't need all of the logistics, time, and effort to load, transport, unload, prep, fire, run, shutdown, cleanup, load, transport, and unload a 700 pound steam engine each time I wanted to run. Over the winter I came up with a little electric powered 0-4-0 Porter "steam profile" tank engine. This critter runs on two 450 watt 24 vdc electric scooter motors with built in gear reduction of about 5 to 1 and chain drive to each axle. In order to make it appear more "genuine" it has a smoke generator that produces about 25 minutes of smoke from a charge of 3/4 once of liquid smoke (similar to what Lionel has had in their tinplate locomotives for years) and a Phoenix sound card blasting out of an 8 inch speaker mounted under the roof of the cab and driven through a 20 watt amplifier. The sound card adds chuff, bell, whistle, blowdown, steam turbo, water fill, coal shovel, and injector sounds. The loco weights about 200 pounds and easily pulls 4 cars with two or three people on tracks with slight grades. I have yet to test it on steep grades.
Having built a completely functional steam engine before, the construction of the "electric profile" steamer was a breeze. The whole project was completed in about 3 months working 2 or 3 days per week. The big reason for the fast construction was that most of the parts on the locomotive were for show and did not have to functionally handle 120 pounds of live steam. The frame was constructed out of steel, but most everything else was built from wood, plastic, and sheet metal. Being a tank engine (that is where the batteries are hidden), I am currently running it without a tender. Future plans call for a small electric powered tender with it's own batteries MU'ed to the tank engine, maybe next winter.
I have uploaded photos of TRR#1 in the photos section in the folder entitled appropriately TRR#1. The first picture is of the Bachmann On30 1/4" scale model which I scaled up to make my 2 1/2" scale "steam profile" locomotive. The next series of photos are of the loco under construction. Note the liberal use of wood and plastic. Through a friend and fellow builder I learned of a local vendor who does water jet cutting from CAD drawings. I mastered enough basics of CAD to design the water tank and had the components of the water tank water jet cut, a big, big savings over cutting sheet metal by hand, and a lot more accurate.
Finally, a couple of photos of the completed loco are included (note the "smoke"). I made the test run in late February at the Houston Area Live Steamers track and then took the loco to the Maricopa Live Steamers Spring Meet in Phoenix mid March where it ran flawlessly over their 10+ miles of track over three days and was a big hit with the builder/owner and spectators alike.
Subject: RE: Re: Scale or real?? Not even Narrow Gauge
Roy,
That is exactly what I did, I found a brand new one on ebay for 1/3 the price of going through a regular store, bypassed the pressure switch and it works great for direct pumping into the boiler. It is pretty much for emergency operations since I prefer to use either the injectors or the steam pump. But you can never have too many backups. One other thing it is good for is doing boiler checks, it will put out more then enough pressure to test your boiler for yearly leak inspections.
If you defeat the pressure switch it will put out close to 200 psi.
Phil
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:55:45 -0500
From: Rick White
Subject: Re: Winter Project
Going to http://picasaweb.google.com/LCCFBRR
and choose the albums 2010-03-20-MLS and the other two on 3-19 and 3-18 to see photos of TRR1 at MLS in March, 2010.
Thanks for the kind words. This is my first live steam project so it is all a learning experience.
I do not think I would have done much differently. While the documentation is lacking, the fit and completeness of the RMI kit is superb. Everything just seems to go together nicely. Besides who follows instructions anyway?! :)
I have been modifying things as I go along to add more goodies and make it easier to work on. I think the fellows up at TRHA actually welded the body to the base plate of the tender. I chose to make it bolt on so I could powder coat it a different color then the base plate. The base plate will be black along with the chassis and the dividers, and the body of the tender will be a nice dark royal blue to match the locomotive boiler jacket. I painted the chassis with a spray can as it will probably need to be touched up all of the time and it is hard to do touch ups on
powder coat and have it look good.
One thing I would have done differently was to order the tender with air brakes, forgot to do that so will have to add them after the fact meaning take the trucks apart to add the disc, air cylinder and other components. I will start the final wiring of the tender this week. I built a switch box for the tender lights, backup light and electric high pressure water pump, with 1 extra switch for growth. This box will be mounted on the side of the tender just behind the injector water control on the left side. I got one of those red switch safety shields so that the pump cannot be switched on by accident. I will post photos when it is done and mounted.
I also added additional 1/4 inch round rod to the top edges of the dividers, similar to that which goes around the top outside edge of the tender, I always thought that they were a little sharp and dangerous if someone sat or fell on them by accident.
I cut the injector water valve shafts about 3 inches above the floor and put in a shaft coupler which allowed me to rotate the shafts and have them aim toward the outside of the tender when closed and aim backwards or forwards when flowing. The way they are normally is not very good, the one on the left digs into your leg when you are sitting in the tender and is very easy to turn on by accident and waste water. I also reversed one of the valves so they both are turned on and off the same way.
After engineering one of the Sweetcreeks at our club, I found that I was just too tall and big for the standard configuration. I will be building my cab out of quarter sawn oak instead of using the supplied sheet metal cab, and make it approximately 8 inches longer. I will put down a floor that extends back so there is room for my
feet instead of having to sit cross legged with my feet resting against the boiler. I will also be adding about a foot to the drawbar that joins the tender and locomotive. Will see how it works out and how long it actually ends up being. This will also give me room to add a post to hold the 2 air brake valves on the left side of the cab.
I have also added a pair of brass 14 inch long 1/2 inch diameter liquid level gauges, one for oil and one for water at the rear of the tender. More for show then anything else, but they will be functional and look nice. I also plan on adding a small ladder and a backup light to the rear of the tender as well as vertical brass hand rails on the rear corners and on each side of the front of the tender. I purchased 1/4 inch brass rod and some of the 1" large standoffs from Real Trains. They are all drilled and will look very nice once installed. All of the brass stuff will
be polished and sent out for gold plating so it will stay shiny.
I have made a lot of modifications, and I am sure there will be more. I have never enjoyed a project as much as I have enjoyed working on this one. Maybe some day I will actually get it completed. :)
Question
What has your experience been with slip switches....i.e. a dog bone track with a single main connecting the two loops so each time you come through the loop next time you run the loop in the opposite direction?
Does anyone have any videos of your projects?
Johan, do you and your buddy have any vids of your engines?
We have had several from Robert Morris, and Fred Veeschoten. Are there any others that would like to share? I am still looking for more state information on boiler codes. This is for our information and no one else.
So help me out --Please!!!
You can post links to vids if you are using other sites to post them.
In all due respect to Hubert who happens to be a fine list moderator, I will no longer post anything I produce, Live Steam or otherwise. There has been wide spread support of my postings and I thank each person who has said so since 1995. While the vitriol towards me is means nothing. The hate and discontent towards Hubert does and is totally uncalled for! If you liked what was posted, you can subscribe to my Live Steam & YouTube account. You will be updated each time a new posting is made as they will continue to grow.
Hello Bill,
Unfortunately I haven't taken any video shots due to the non owning of such equipment. I will ask Hannes if he have taken any, although Hannes is an avid still/digital photographer.
Due to negligence by not having a "safety chain" fitted to my loco, it snapped the drawbar and nearly demolished all of her righthand valvegear motion. I've handed the controls to one of our club members who had the misfortune of this happening to him. Poor guy, he is nearly 75years of age. The loco took off and derailed about thirty meters further. Needless to say what emotions ran through me when I were informed about the incident. Luckily no person nor other equipment were physically involved (damaged or hurt) Moral of the story? Let it be a lesson for me, to fit a chain when the damage are repaired and prior to it "return to service".
Cheers,
Johan.
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:07:53 -0400
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Videos Anyone??
Johan,
You may not remember my post below"
=============================
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:02:17 -0500
Hello Johan and Hannes,
I don't recall if either of you posted this in either list before.
Both of you and your engines shown in such beautiful surroundings.
A report plus lots of pictures of the South African National Live Steam Meet in Pietermaritzburg report is available at this website - scroll down for a great series of pictures:
http://www.sandstone-estates.com/interim/Model_Makers/Pietermaritzburg_Model_Engineering_Society/Steam_Meet_Pietermaritzburg_2009.html
Russ Milland
Cheers,
Arno
==================================
Unfortunately, the URL gets a 404.
Maybe Hannes knows who put that up or to which site it was moved.
--
Regards,
Arno
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:51:23 -0400
From: michael guy
Subject: Re: Videos Anyone??
Bill,
Here is one of our RMI Sweet Creek running at GHLS in Hamilton Ontario.
Hi Arno,
By mentioning and reposting your previous posting.......yes, I do recall. The unfortunate disaster took place last Sunday (week ago). Hopefully the loco would return to the tracks soon.
Thanks for posting the info again.
Kind Regards,
Johan
The photo's were put on the Sandstone site by Andries Keyser, the Sandstone site had a revamp a while ago, perhaps that is where the link got lost. Most or many were my photo's in any way, they can be viewed as well as many others at,
Myself and Johan and a third person are currently engaged in another Narrow gauge project a 4-4-0 tender engine, the prototype was built in 1895, in my opinion it has very elegant lines, progress on the construction on my engine can be viewed at
What is not shown in the pictures is that there is a weight attached to the top of the lever which looks like a European manual switch lever but which is really an articulated extension of the model's lever.
When the loco wheel kick the un sprung switch blades (points) to the opposite side, the lever is actuated. The articulated weight extension then flips over the centre point and keeps the switch lined up until the train coming through again, kicking it to the other side.
Chris,
this seems to be exactly what you are looking for.
--
Cheers,
Arno
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:39:50 -0400
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Videos Anyone??
Hello Hannes,
You are right, the Beira #7 shows some elegant lines for a NG loco.
I am partial to Forney looks, with the Denver, South Park & Pacific RR - 2-6-6Tin first place and the SR&RL #7 in second.
I was lucky being at the Edaville when she was getting her trailing truck rebuilt and the engineer showed me everything in the shed.
About an hour before the first train in the morning he saw me sitting, having a coffee, trying to explain to my wife (yeah, right) the difference between the pictures in Live Steam Magazine, which had just published the first installment of Don Young's building article and 0-4-4T #4, standing under steam, waiting for the first run of the morning.
Beira #7 can easily hold her own in the looks department.
Last time you posted some pictures in the list, ISTR that it ended with the lanterns.
I just sat through the whole slide show. What great workmanship and then the photography; pure joy.
Thank you for sharing these links and pictures. These show some very nice looking equipment at tracks and meets.
I was curious how common it is to find, the larger models based on 2 foot gauge models like those of the SR&RL #25 and #7? Are these many who model in the larger 3 3/4" scale, over your way?
i've been building 2 engines in 3 3/4" scale. see my photos in the folder "Fred's stuff". this is a commercial passenger hauling design based on a Hunslet engine sold to India.
The 2 foot prototypes modelled to run on 7 1/4", what we use here, are built in quite small numbers by only a few guy's over here, although the general leaning is towards larger models. Most of the members that build larger
models here belong to one club. There is one person, a member of this list, Johan Pretorius about 350 miles away that also builds to the larger scale but to my knowledge he is the only one in his home club with such a large locomotive.
Myself and Johan built the Avonside tank locomotives simultaneously at different venue's, I kept a pictorial record of proceedings as I built, can be viewed at
There is also a series of photo's of a very small french Decauville 0-4-0T which might be built at a later stage, which would make a beautiful little engine, have a look at
You are invited to attend the Narrow Gauge Meet May 10 through the 16th. This is one of the specialty meets held each year at Train Mountain. While everyone is welcome the primary focus is on narrow gauge equipment. This includes steam and diesel models and . . . . Train Mountain is privately owned but built and maintained by a large group of volunteer members. If you look at the list below of upcoming events you will see a Work Week preceding each Train Meet. With over 30 actual (not scale) miles of track there is always maintenance to be preformed and if you are interested in building a live steam railroad this is the time to come and learn. Most important though it's a great place to come and have fun running and riding outdoor trains! For more information contact info@trainmountain.org. Website www.trainmountain.org. You can also drop me an email at russ @ hobby-tronics dot com
Narrow Gauge Meet
May 10 - 13 Work Week
May 14 - 16 Train Meet
June Meet
May 29 - June 3 Work Week
June 4 - 6 Train Meet
Operations Meet
June 26 -July 1 Work Week
July 2 - 4 Train Meet
August Meet
Aug 7 - 12 Work Week
Aug 13 - 15 Train Meet
September Meet
Sept 4 - 9 Work Week
Sept 10 - 12 Train Meet
Thanks for the invitation, Russ.
Before I can commit to attending, since I have a narrow gauge steam locomotive, are there restrictions regarding where on the TM track I can operate it?
It's coal fired, and at last year's Triennial, I was not permitted to run on the Elizabeth Loop, and Aspen Loop areas - anywhere on the property north of the highway were off limits to all engines burning coal, char, wood and oil.
That's one of the reasons the narrow gauge group decided to have the narrow gauge meet in May. Its just after the snow melt and the ground is still wet and perfect for coal burners. Most of the guys attending model Colorado Narrow Gauge and they are all coal burners. Hope that answers your question. If in doubt, give Train Mountain a call.
Subject: Off Topic: I'm looking for the Freight Section of Precision Craft Goose
Hello all,
I know, that a lot of our members are also modelling in O-scale. So, please excuse my off topic request:
For detailling the roundhouse-area on our On3-module-layout I need the freight-section of a Precision Craft Goose. Sadly, Precision Craft doesn't have them anymore.
Perhaps someone has one laying around from a kitbash, or has used the drivetrain for another model.
It would be nice, if the frame comes wiht the body, but a body only would also be very helpful.
![](http://www.7-plus-ngm.org/2009/bilder/091129_1.jpg")
![](http://www.7-plus-ngm.org/2009/bilder/091129_2.jpg")