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7-Plus-NGM Digest February 2005

Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 02:11:29 -0000
From: "rogernetz"

Subject: Dick Stolzenfels



Does anyone know where the 2 3/8" scale, 4 3/4" gage equipment thatDick Stolzenfels built went after he died?
He had also built abeautiful 1" scale NYC Mohawk as well as an 0-4-0.
Roger

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 07:58:13 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: JiTong Railway Video



-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:54 AM
From: Steam_in_China@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Steam_in_China] Digest Number 895

The attached link contains brilliant footage of steam hauled freight and passenger trains on the JingPing pass in Inner Mongolia last Summer.

I cannot see a means of saving it to a hard drive. If you know how, please let me know.

Thanks,
TH

http://rstreaming.zdf.de/zdf/300/041104_mongolei3_ajo.ram

Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2005 11:14:06 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: South African images



Dayle's South African web site continues to grow.

This page, all 2 foot stuff is new.

http://satransport.moby302.co.za/pictures_3rd_Feb_2005.html

The main page is here

http://satransport.moby302.co.za/SAR/SAR.html

TH

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:41:10 EST
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Wheel diameter question



I'm working from a drawing with a wheel diameter given as 20" (full size).
Given that the wheel tread is tapered, where is that diameter measured?
Close to the flange?
At the smallest diameter?
Somewhere else?

Thanks in advance,

Ken Wing

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:58:53 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Wheel diameter question



On the tread at the beginning of the fillet radius.

James Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 20:59:00 -0000
From: "onrama"

Subject: Re: Wheel diameter question



Ken,
have a look at http://www.svls.org/ibls.htm
The diameter is measured at the tangent point between the radius R and the top horizontal dimension line for the flange depth F.

Arno

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:48:18 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Wheel diameter question



You caught me just before beddy-bye with your question re wheel diameter.
Since I stuffed two folders of 2 ft. narrow gauge drawings in my currently underused brief case (along with 5-6 vcr tapes; I'm on Adirondack Live Steamers Winter Banquet program tomorrow) I just check 'em out.

Take what follows with a grain or two of salt.

Didn't find what I had hoped for, those being drawings of a couple of two foot trucks. I think I loaned these to a fellow, not correct, a married couple, fellow members at ALS who are getting into two foot gauge modeling.

Anyway, rather universal on these drawings the wheel diameter is called out ( 36" or 22", whatever) in a blank space on the drawing next to the subject wheel.Man and boy, I have never turned any wheel so do not accept this as gospel, but my tke that this is the diameter of the wheel starting at the end of the fillet against the flange then tapering out to the edge of the tire. I suppose that, if you are going to differentiate between center blind (no) flange tires and their companions, we can argue till the cows come home.

I trust you shall be receiving more erudite replies than this.Heed them, by all means.

Cam Brown
Two Foot Forever

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:28:22 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Wheel diameter question



Ken,

See the drawing at
http://www.redwoodvalleyrailway.com/pages/specs/download/standards.doc

In the lower right corner of the drawing is the profile of a wheel tread and flange. A line over the tread shows where a wheel diameter is measured.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:19:45 -0000
From: "GB"

Subject: Dumb Question



Hello List
I have been trying to answer my own question for a while now and feel I may have the answer but have to be certain.
What is the difference between a Briggs boiler and a conventional firetube design.
Is it the fact that most pics of Briggs boilers I have seen don't appear to have a waterjacket around the firebox?

Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:32:04 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Dumb Question



That _is_ the principle of a Briggs boiler.
Have a look at http://www.narrowgauge.iform.com.au/boiler.html

Arno

Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:44:19 -0500
From: "Gil"

Subject: Re: Dumb Question



Thanks a lot Arno that is a great wisite lots of good info have saved it to my favorites for futuer reference....
Gil

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:57:47 -0500
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: June Meet at Godshall's



The Shermans Dale Valley Railroad has scheduled it's meet for June25/26 2005. Please attend regardless of the gauge that you model and meet with new and old friends. Bring your equipment to operate or just for show.One inch is still going strong and new people are showing up on a regular basis. Food will be catered on Saturday and Sunday. Operations will begin on Friday to accomodate those wanting to get an early start.
Food will be available at local shops RSVP if possible.
Thanks
Don and Wayne Godshall

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:42:34 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: June Meet at Godshall's



Hi,

Where is the geographic location of this track?

Thanks,
TH

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:47:30 -0000
From: "John Haskey"

Subject: Re: June Meet at Godshall's



Area code 717 is E. Pennsylvania, Harrisburg. Is that specific enough?
---john.

Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:23:02 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: June Meet at Godshall's



Whoever you sre, thanks for the invite. I try to act normal - whatever that is. For me.

Survived a cold-up-here seasonal banquet of the Adirondack Live Steamers this past Sunday. Found that I was to be the entertainment as a.) I volunteered and b.noone else did So I used this for theexcuse to wear my conductors' suit for the first time in a while. No one threw anything.

Where are you folks? We should be in Florida now,but things have conspired against us.

Cam Brown

PS: This for anyone who may see this. At the feed last Sunday, I was asked who had the (1" scale I think) model of #24, a gorgeous two foot gauge Prairie of the Sandy River & Rangeley Lakes up in Maine. I've been passing myself ofdf as an authority on the two footers, the real and (some) midels but I'm stumped on this one.

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:26:28 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Movable point frogs



Hi Folks:

Some time back I suggested that a movable point frog might be a solution to the problem of running both 7-1/4" and 7-1/2" gauge equipment on the same track. Since the only real "interference" fit on the track is at the frog guard-rails, this seems like a fairly easy solution, because it requires no guard-rails, or sliding track sections. They should last forever, and provide a smoother ride than standard frogs, because there is no gap at the frog to be battered by the wheels. I promised that when I could get photos of the prototype, I would post them for you. I've got my photos back, and I've posted a selection in the "photos" section of the Group home page http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/7-plus-NGM/lst.

Here are a couple notes on the frogs. The point of the frog is rectangular in section, and relieved like a switch point on both sides to fit against the closure rails. The switch machine pulls the point over, and the "slip" joint at the heel of the point allows the required flexibility. I found out one day, when the throw rod broke on the crossover at East Upton, that when there is no tension on the point it is normally lined "straight".

Since "our" size aluminum (or even steel) rail isn't as relatively flexible as mainline rail (131 lb., in this case), if I were building a switch with this type frog, I'd do it a little differently. I'd make the "point" out of a rectangular piece of material, as wide as two railheads at the back and profiled like the prototype at the "point". I'd mount the rails and "heel" of the point on a plate, with a vertical pivot at the "heel" of the point. You would need some "ears" on the bottom of the point, or "fingers" through the "web" as on the big ones, to keep it from lifting, and a throw bar connection at the "pointy" end. To throw the point, I'd probably make a bell-crank and rod extension from the switch point switch stand. That would throw both the points and frog at once, so that there would be less chance of the occasional accident we have on the mainline when somebody forgets to throw the frog (or lines it wrong) and then runs you through it :>)

Just a thought, thanks for your time.

Best,

Mike Decker
Erskine Tramway (7-1/2", 6" scale)
Hot Springs, SD

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:01:37 -0000
From: "Richard Landen"

Subject: RE: Movable point frogs



Hi Mike and everyone

The points I bought from Eric Walker (he of the grooved concrete sleepers) have moveable frogs. There is a pic on the minimum gauge and estate railways group at



The guard rails are for show only, so could be omitted. The blades and the frog form one rigid assembly which pivots about an intermediate point. Seems to work OK!

R

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:46:01 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Re: June Meet at Godshall's



Thank you yes,

I thought it a bit strange to post a message of invite without stating the location of the meeting or listing a web page.

TH

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:38:13 -0800
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: Question



To All,

Is anyone having trouble accessing the pictures of those switch points? It is as if they are TOP secret. Yahoo is tossing me a curve here and I cannot view what is being shown.

Let me know.

RNB

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:19:25 +1300
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: RE: Movable point frogs



Grooved concrete sleepers? Sounds interesting - where can I find more information? I tried Google for Eric and concrete sleepers but didn't find anything of interest.

Chris Draper

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:14:35 -0000
From: "Richard Landen"

Subject: RE: RE: Movable point frogs/grooved sleepers



Let me firstly apologise to everyone for the amount of HTML debris that was attached to my last mail.

The discussion on grooved sleepers and flat bar rail has spanned several groups! Of course many of you will be members of the relevant groups, but for the benefit of others if will resubmit the information here. I have has an enormous amount of help, support and camaradie via groups, and am pleased to help back where I can. However, due to a serious computer problem I have mails on several machines and need to consolidate them first! (I would appreciate any advice over loss of data due to negligence of computer repair!)

The basic concept is to use 30 x 12 black flat rail set into re-inforced concrete sleepers. The concept was developed by Eric Walker, and I understand that similar system are avaible with wooden and plastic sleepers. When I retrieve the mail referred to above, I will post more info, including comments on wheel wear, stability etc. I've posted a couple of lo-res pics on the group site in the directory RL/Kirton LR. Eric built the Kirton LR in his garden. Having seen the system I bought some (800!) surplus sleepers and two (switch frog) points from him. My aim is to 'lose' the track into the grass in certain areas so I can mow over it and drive tractors across it, so I need strong rot-proof sleepers. Eric has done just this and drives his car across the track where only the railheads are visible out of the earth. This really looks the part!

Hope this helps
Richard Landen

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:51:43 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Question



Would you like to chance a guess why I had posted before yours:

May I suggest for anyone who WANTS others so see that page of which they are posting a URL to go to http://tinyurl.com/, enter that long URL and make it TINY before passing it on.

A few inches down that page is a link that can be dragged unto ones browser's tool bar and just looking at a page and clicking on the toolbar link will create the tiny URL.

Arno

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:14:44 -0500
From: mrjcad@netscape.net

Subject: Re: Re: Question



I say them by going through the yahoogroup site -- they look great!!

Regards
Laurence Johnson,
hometrainmaker

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 09:55:23 EST
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: tolerances question



I don't see much discussion of tolerances in the construction articles and plans in Live Steam, and wonder what kind of tolerances locomotive builders hold?

I have tables for running and interference fits, but there seem to be a lot of parts and dimensions where close tolerances hardly matter. Of course, you're left to figure out which ones these are on your own, which can mean learning lessons the hard way!

There's a comment in the book, So You Want to Build a Live Steam Locomotive, that we don't need to work to .001".

When I took machining class, there was some standard rule about what tolerances to assume if the drawing said nothing, but the more important lessons of the course were that you can't trust the drawing anyway and you need to know how the part will be used to determine the tolerances needed.

What have you-all done?

Ken Wing

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:18:34 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: tolerances question



Hi Ken:

When I was designing 15" gauge locomotives for Sandley's, the "standard" tolerance on my drawings was +/-.015" for decimal dimensions to two decimal places, +/-.005" for three decimal places and +/- 1/64" for fractional. If you get to a fit like the piston in the cylinder or the crankpin in the rod bushing, and you want to be able to make a new part later that fit like the original part, then you would tolerance the drawing dimension to fit the way you wanted it.

As a practical matter, if you are building only one of something, you don't need tolerances, you just make it fit the other part, running, sliding or pressed. Tolerances are just the amount of variation in size that the designer will accept in a finished part so that it will be interchangeable with another part....sometimes made in an entirely different place and time. The bottom line is that the only important sizes on a locomotive are the relationship between the parts that fit in holes.
Pistons/cylinders, crankpins/wheels, crankpins/rod bushings, those are examples of "fits". The outside dimensions of a main rod, for instance, are not important (within reason), since they only "fit the air". As an example, we used to finish our rods at Sandley's with a belt sander and drawfiling, but the distance between, and the size of, the bushing holes, were laid out and machined as close as we could get them.

I hope all this answers your question.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:35:34 -0700
From: "Chuck Hoelzen"

Subject: Re: tolerances question



The locos were a one off production made to fit and not made as an interchangable part. In many cases the bearings were babbit or adjustable bronze and never were made to any tolerance.

We have "grown" into interchangable high tolerance parts today and have lost the older attitude of making two parts work togeather.

Chuck

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:42:11 +0100
From: "josef wagner"

Subject: Re: tolerances question



hallo chuck
looking to friction bronce bearings these are surely manufactured to very close tolerances. looking for such small diameters these are either machined and drilles at lathes or made sintered.
and here they have to fit a shaft of h8 or h9 and you can order the bushing either with tolerance E9 or F9 or without tolerance.
without ... because if you make a press fit into a zinc or steel casting you are forced to machine bushings for close bearing tolerances as well as correct allignemt.
best regards
josef wagner

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:47:27 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: tolerances question



Possible exceptions: USRA design locomotives had relativly large production runs of similar parts across various wheel arrangements.Also, Each manufacturer had "Standard Parts" that were built to prints and stocked, both as parts for new build locomotives and for replacements for locomotives in the field.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:42:55 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: tolerances question



My elderly brain came up with a thread of memory from a thermodynamics class lo these (those?) many years ago. Prof, in his youth, had been employed my a manufacturer of diesel engines, They had an order from a milling company somewhere in the midwest that had ordered a diesel to power an emergency power generator. Theory had it that anything with BTU (ok - and caloric) value could be used as fuel. An attempt was made to run the engine on wheat chaff. The thing did turn over - for a while - until the injectors fouled.

Excuse the off topic digression. Any other wild diesel tales?

Cam Brown

PS, I am a happy man! Married couple in the Adirondack Live Steamers have a Roll Models Mogul! It appears as though the Eckerts, Bill and Nancy, are becoming solid Two Foot NG Types. They look like solid additions to this group - if the Moderator can accept my nomination of this nice couple.

Anyone from Vermont cannot be all bad.

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:31:08 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: tolerances question



A Tale told to me by a WW2 veteran many years ago:
Post war the German shipping was taken over by the allied Navys and a particualr Diesel powered ship was handed to the US Navy to operate.
At the time there was a regulation that all Diesel powered ships had to be fitted with fuel pureifiers and day tanks to run the Diesels from.
Supply therefore provided standard pureifier units and day tanks to be installed, one fo reach Diesel engine on the ship.
The problem was the Main engine was HUGE and slow turning and had been run on basically bunker fuel instead of distilled Diesel fuel.
It had a large enough bore and stroke that If you pulled an Injector, you could place a ladder in the resulting hole and go down and stand upright on the piston head and walk around inspectin gthe valves, bore and piston head.
The Navy engineering types dutifully installed the day tanks and purifirs and poured Diesel fuel into the main fuel tanks. Eventually they got the pureifier to run after numerous cleanings to get the heavier bunker fuel through them and into the day tank(s). Then the Fun began. They started the main engine, and it sucked an inch an injection cycle out of the day tank.
Teh engineering Chief then took the engineroom crew asside and told them to insert a bypass in the line around th epureifier and day tank just in case.
Finally all was inspected and ready so the Commanding Officer ordered the ship under way for trials. The main engine at full power sucked about 50 gal. an injector stroke, so it was run underway on the bypass plumbing, and inport or at idle on the day tank plumbing.
Moral of the story: Command should look before blindly ordering compliance with regulation for which the particular equipmant was not designed.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:33:26 -0000
From: "ncngrr"

Subject: Re: bearing question



Would someone please provide a page/part number for an example of a bearing suitable for 2-1/2" scale freight cars?

I went to a local bearing house in town and when presented with the bearing ID (for 3/4" axle), the salesman brought out a wheelbarrow bearing for $3.50-$4.00 each, an "unground" bearing for around $11.00, and a better "ground" bearing at about $20.00 each.

Any specific suggestions?

Thanks.

Scott
Colorado Springs

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:43:07 -0500
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Re: bearing question



Check with Boca Bearing in Fla. They sell motor grade ball bearings cheap and more than good enough for min RR cars.
On the net:
http://www.bocabearings.com
RichD

Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:47:09 -0500
From: mrjcad@netscape.net

Subject: Re: Re: bearing question



Scott - hi. I would think a double sealed bearing with 3/4 ID for around $3-4 would be just fine. Use your local suppler - shipping costs are noting if you shop for the hobby while doing needed stuff for the home/wife.

Regards
Laurence Johnson,
hometrainmaker

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:09:36 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: bearing question



What loadin gare you intending to have?
#/4 axle end would mean 8 bearings sharing the load for one car (with four axles).
My 2-1/2 scale Uintah Ry flats (9'x32' full size) weigh about 200 lbs empty and have carried 800-1000 lbs load for a total gross of 1200 lbs.
we used single row double sealed ball bearings in the trucks, but I am thinking of rebuilding with scaled MCB B axles, boxes and plain bearings in arch bar trucks.
My 1.6 scale Daylight car weighs about 200 lbs empty also (Aluminium Construction) but has roller bearings fitted.
If you are running lightly loaded scale cars you my want ot look at both sperical ball bearings or Double packaged taper roller bearings (like sometimes used on Go-Kart wheels).

Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:35:28 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: Fuel for Live Steamers



Hi all,

I have recently been using a processed coal (called char) in my 7 loco, but the factory that has been making it has burnt down, and although there is a small pilot factory keeping industry supplied, there's not much left for us steamy types.

The "char" is advertised as an ashless, smokeless fuel, and sure enough after a days running and about 20 lbs through the firebox, there's just a couple of spoons of ash in the smoke box, and no unsavourey sulphur taste in the back of my throat.

The local coal here is almost brown in color, and very unpleasant. The better coal dug out of New Zealands Southern Island is all shipped off to China and all places east, only for us to pay through the nopse for products thus produced.

Therefore, I'm looking for a replacement product for my little loco. My firebox is about 45 square inches, and the boiler capacity is about 4 gallons. The loco is modelled on a 2 foot prototype, basically a Sweat William (like a Sweat Pea but bigger) and with a trailing truck.

Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley
Cambridge, NZ.

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:36:36 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: Regarding the bearing question



Hi Scott of Colorado Springs,

I use bearings by FAG called 6203.2RSR for my passenger trolleys. Two per wheel, and they cost $4 each in New Zealand dollars, that's closer to $3 US. They are double sealed, and seem to be used in most passenger trolleys here in NZ land.

Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley
Cambridge, NZ.

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:46:52 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: tolerances question



Came up with another wildly off RR topic memory that may get a chuckle or two.This is the great fun in this site, when we get off on wild tangents. Subject now is naval combat ships in WWII. A chap (thank goodness I can't recall his name) I met when I was in the paper industry claimed he was the commander of the smallest craft in said war. He was a leftenant( I cannot recall the exact rank nor spelling but I've always been partial to that British and Colonial designation,) in the Finnish navy.

The Finns, even though they were nice enough to (be the only nation) to pay off aid debt from WWI had ended up on the other side in WWII. At the end of hostilities (here memory surges back and forth and I may possibly be making some of this up) there were a couple of the Reich's mine sweepers in a Finnish port (Baltic coast I remember) when the nearby then US ally ordered these ships to sea (destination Leningrad I remember) It was immaterial to those giving the orders that there was little to no fuel on these crafts.

No problem. Orders were orders. Get moving.

So a trainload of pulpwood was raided, ships( to maintain the story line) must have been steam powered with boilers (I do not think that you could get a stick of pulpwood through an injector.) raised steam and put to sea. Following orders, they had started for Leningrad - orders didn't specify when to get there.

Anyway, my paper trade buddy was in a rubber dinghy in the harbor rowed presumably by a solitary common seaman, when the mine sweeper took off (for parts-ports)unknown. His claim to fame was that he was the Commander-in-Chief of the smallest navel vessel in WWII

I really must go and get a alumni article typed.

Cam Brown

I just checked the title. You folks display quite a bit of tolerance putting up with these digressions. I shall be more railroady in the future.

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:56:09 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: tolerances question



CROSS-POSTED to [steam-tech]

William,
a very interesting tale, as you said.

I wonder if you can find out more about that particular engine.

In 1966 I worked on a 40,000 tonnes load capacity bulk carrier that had a 10,800 HP (DIN) 7 cylinder 2-stroke Diesel engine, running between 106 an 118 rpm ideally.
Every other night, at 0200 h, were replaced one of the 6" dia. by 2' long injectors.
To do that, the engine had to be shut off, the compression nut for the fuel supply disconnected and the two nuts on the studs that held the injector in place. A 6' crow bar would then be used to break loose the injector and the second fellow would grab and pull out the injector with asbestos gloves. The engineer, who had shut down the engine, had the re-lapped replacement injector in his hands, would drop it in its bore, the pipe reconnected and all nut tightened.
We'd then run down the 3 stories to the operating stand and the engineer would start up the engine while the other two would stand by on maneuver station.
(Did I mention that, if this took longer than 2 minutes, there was hell to pay at noon with a good dressing down by the 2nd Engineer. Don't ask me how I know that).

One of these stations was operating the 600 HP auxiliary Diesel that would pump up the compressed air bottles as the turbo charger would not supply scavenger air until the exhaust reached a temperature of 430* C.

The motor was designed originally with 7 equal cylinders, six as working cylinders and the seventh as a compressor to provide scavenger air.

Once, in Monrovia we had to pull a piston while being loaded. All shore leave cancelled. The moment the engine was shut off we got on top of the cylinder head, put the ring spanner on one of the 24 tie rod nuts and whacked the end of the spanner with a sledge hammer. Each one of us got 5 blows in turn until the nut broke free. That took about an hour and a half and the head was taken off with a chain fall.

While working on the head, others below turned the crank shaft to a position where they could be removing the gudgeon pin of the piston.

With the head off, the crank shaft was turned again to bring the piston towards TDC so the chain fall could be attached to pull the 47" (1200 mm) dia. piston.
That was an interesting affair too as the Chief had a drawing from the Shipyard about the angles, vertical and lateral positions the piston had to be maneuvered to be moved through the small clearances.

I don't know what else was done as I was seconded to replace a couple of ceased fans high up in the chimney.
I passed out just before finishing the second one. I was told later on that I hadn't taken enough fluids; first time for me at a temperature of 42* C and relative humidity of 98%.

Bunker C. We had a 1000 litre / day steam generator which was used to heat the day tanks the separators and the fuel lines to 112* C.

The centrifugal separator had to be shut down every other night and cleaned.
Although the 600 HP 8-cylinder air compressor and the generator motors were in triplicate; one in use, one on stand by and the third being torn on each 21 day round trip, we only had two separators and I never saw one down.

The 8 - 12 watch would open the steam line to the standby separator, and by the time our dogs watch started it was at operating temperature.
We switched over the Bunker C supply line, shut off the steam supply line and opened the lid of the separator so it could cool down enough to work with a putty knife and a wire brush and gas oil (Diesel) to remove the tar off the 43 perforated staggered cones.

First time, they told me to start after one hour or I would not get finished. Everything was still much too hot to touch so I started after two hours.
Big mistake, by the time I thought it was cool enough to work on the cones, the soft solids had become caked on and I had a heck of a time braking the cones apart and clean them.
Back on the carpet and a dressing down from the 2nd Engineer.

We, of course had separate tanks for the gas oil (distilled Diesel, as referred by you - I do not know the proper English ship board expression) which was used for the auxiliary 4-stroke Diesels.

I pre-war times they may not have exhaust turbo chargers, so only operated such an engine as a 6-cylinder but they would not have gotten out of port without heated day tanks and separators (I assume that's what is described a 'purifiers').

As I said in the beginning of this epistle, I would dearly like to know more about the engine but guess that you have no chance to contact that Veteran any longer.

Maybe someone else with more sailing exposoure than I can shed more light on the matter.
[ Frank, where are you ? ]

Cheers,
Arno

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:58:51 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Fuel for Live Steamers



Geez, Grant,
some people have absolutely no sense for priorities!

I wish we could get char here in North America .I know from friends in Australia that they use char almost exclusively.

Would the shipping cost become prohibitive if you would contact any of the clubs in Oz?

Cheers,
Arno

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:53:07 -0800
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: Engine



Good day,

I will apolgize if I get off on the wrong subject. I notice that a few are talking about large diesel engines. Well I have a awesome one for you to look at. See what you think.

Go to this site.

On Yahoo-- The most powerful Diesel Engine in the world

I am sure that you could walk through the block of this one and it would be a little intimidating.

Have fun,

Bob

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 01:10:56 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: tolerances question



The tail was told to me while working in the Cal. LAB. at Litton Data Systems, Van Nuys, California in late 1970s-early 1980s. The man at htat time was nearing retirement. The Company sold the site and all buildings were torn down by 1990s. I have no way to trace him or even know if he is still alive.
Sorry about that.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:13:37 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Engine



Go to this site.

Which site, Bob.

On Yahoo-- The most powerful Diesel Engine in the world I am sure that you could walk through the block of this one and it would be a little intimidating.

It better be the MAN B&W 12K98MC with an output of 101,645 bhp (74,760 kW) with a record output of 8,470 bhp (6,230 kW) per cylinder (just a tad more than the 1,550 hp per cylinder I described earlier <G>).
Arno

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:28:01 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: tolerances question



As you had seen in my post, I halfway expected such a reply. The ravages of time eliminate most of our sources of information.

That is actually the reason for my lengthily reply.
Two years ago I started a new eMail folder called Biography.
Now, when some post triggers my mind I keep a copy of the in the Biography folder.
I may never look at it, but should I want to write up something someday, there are some snippets in that 'shoe box.
(Musing whether the younger generations see much more than a carton for shoes in the expression shoe box.).
Cheers,
Arno

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:11:46 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: Re: Fuel for Live Steamers



Thanks for the reply Arno, it was the Australian plant that was destroyed. We were already importing it from Australia. Pretty reasonable price too (when you can get it), $10 NZ (~$7 US) for a 20-25lb bag (10 kg actually).

Maybe I should try getting in a train load of pulp wood.... at least MY injector wouldn't "reject" it!

Grant

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:15:37 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: tolerances question OT



Cam,
since no one answered you I, the transplanted Kraut, will.
It is spelled Lieutenant <grin>.
(That's why they say 'Two countries divided by a common language'.)

See you at the Spring Meet but, don't get any ideas now when seating the kiddies.
Them, over there, did not have any 'Leftenant Conductors' on their Railways (Railroads for you, ).

Cheers, Arno

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:43:30 -0800
From: Peter Moseley

Subject: Re: Re: bearing question



Scott:

On our cars we are using the traditional 1/2 brass bearings on cars that run light, i.e. no passengers, and we use needle bearings running on induction hardened axles on loaded cars e.g. tenders, flats and gons. This requires stocking two different configurations of axles, one with the flange on the end to retain the 1/2 brass and the other plain to allow it to slip into the needle bearing. These axles have a 1/4-28 thread in the end to allow a custom retainer to be screwed into the axle after assembly. The needle bearing is pressed into a steel block that is configured like the 1/2 brass but fully surrounds the bearing.

Peter Moseley
F&PV RR
www.homepage.mac.com/petermoseley

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:48:23 -0800
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: Engine



Hi Arno,

I found this engine on Yahoo.

I just clicked on #1 typed in the most powerful Diesel Engine in the world and up it came.

This engine is called the Warsila-Sulzer RTA96C turbocharged two cycle. Output HP is 108,920 @102 rpm.

Take a look at all the pictures of this monster. I think it goes in big container ships. I am glad I do not pay for the fuel it burns.

Bob Bowman

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:08:47 -0800
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: fuel



Hi again,

Say since I am not a steam fan could someone tell me a little about this (char) you speak of. Is this a type of fuel that will burn 100% clean in boilers and not leave any residue?

How about producing smoke when running. Does this Char make alot of smoke out the stack?

I could not find any place on the web so far that produces it let alone sell it.

just wondering,

Bob

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:09:35 -0800
From: Peter Moseley

Subject: Re: tolerances question



Ken:

Without going into the specifics, one wants close fits on cylinders, pistons, and valve gear, but loose fits for journal boxes in pedestals etc. Modelers tend to make things too tight and then have trouble out on the track. Engines need to be able to "walk" over the track and not be stiff or they will end up on the ground a lot. Same goes for trucks. Loose trucks are much more forgiving than ones made to close fits.

The other aspect comes in when you are trying to make an accurate model of an existing prototype. How close should you be? This is an aesthetic question and for some great care is taken and for others it doesn't matter much. We've spent a lot of time trying to make very detailed models of 2.5"/foot C-16's but always have to compromise some. For instance 1" dia grab irons on the prototype scale to .208 so we are satisfied to use 7/32 (.218) stock. Part of the fun for us making these decisions.

Peter Moseley
F&PV RR
www.homepage.mac.com/petermoseley

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:57:06 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: fuel



Google is your friend!
char Australia coal brings 110,000 returns.
On the first page already are some that are topical.
Arno

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:25:08 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Engine



Hi Bob,
I had seen that engine before, referenced in an other list.
Having grown up with DIN horse power and finding out that SAE hp are different I would like to find a reference to its output in Watts.
I looked at a lot of Google returns but did not find the one I wanted.

Did you post a URL? A picture would have been stripped by Yahoo.

Arno

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:33:22 -0000
From: "Alan Ainslie"

Subject: 7 1/4 gauge transfers and livery southern Loco



We are in final stages of repainting model of Maunsell 262 in 7 1/4 gauge.

1. The closest I can get to lettering is in Haresnape. I will have to scale and scan, and create the font in Photoshop and print onto Decal paper on a colour laser.

Anyone know of ready to use lettering and cab numbers in 7 1/4 gauge that is correct? Or a source of same in 5 inch gauge that I could scale.

If I do have to do the lettering Decals myself, anyone out there need a set?
2. Any assistance with style of buffer beam numbering: I have studied and still cannot really understand which of the many variations is correct.
3. same please with cab side plates which I will etch in Brass. I struggle to find the correct period style though.


Any assistance appreciated.

Thank you
ALAN AINSLIE
SPINNEY LIGHT RAILWAY, FARNHAM, SURREY (running from Easter if anyone wants to visit or bring a loco)

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:41:09 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Fuel for Live Steamers



Grant

On the COALS list there was mention that the plant that burned down has been rebuilt and is back in production. If you want to join the list run out of Steam and Engine Australian http://www.steamengine.com.au and click on the bottom link of the third column. As there and you should get pointed to the proper information.

kind regards
Dennis Port Alberni BC

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 21:00:59 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: Big Engine



For the listee that asked about conversion from SAE horsepower, the factor is 1hp=720 watts. This is especially important for those of us stateside that are building grand scale electric locomotives. With this conversion one can calculate many things, including needed motor size, battery run time, approximate pulling capacity, etc.

Roy Stevens

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:15:58 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: RE: Big Engine



I guess you referring to my question about Watt rating on the large Diesels, not horsepower, as horsepower as a standard is too close to a horses patootie.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower.

You may well be right with the 720 figure used commonly, which would explain why German cars with approx, 735.5 Watt show a lesser amount of DIN than SAE horsepower. Arno

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 22:33:25 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Big Engine



Hmmm. I have used the factor of 726 Watts/HP (exact) or 746 Watts/HP (lossy, to account fo rconversion errors).
Now I will Need to go back and research to find th ecorrect conversion factor in references.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:47:09 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Big Engine



Did you look here for a summery?

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:14:43 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: Re: fuel



Bob and Faith,

The trade name of the product in Australia used to be "Ray-carbo" and it is advertised as an ashless smokeless fuel, for use in space-heaters. Therefore, no smoke to speak of up the chimney, just lots of lovely steam without the sulphur tang!

Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley Cambridge, NZ.

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:32:01 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: New pictures



Howdy, I have just uploaded some recent photos of our little backyard line here at Squirrel Valley, New Zealand. You'll find them in the files section of the website under the heading :"Squirrel Valley, New Zealand".



This is my little battery electric (and me) out visiting a friends 7.25" layout here in New Zealand.



Recent pictures of the "mainline" with my scratch built battery electric.



The loco departing the unfinished bridge. Yes, the unfinisherd bridge over the unfilled pond! Seems appropriate somehow...



A section of the newly completed "mainline" here at Squirrel Valley.


The golden (rusty) spike ceremony here at Squirrel Valley. Just before Christmas 04 we completed the mainline here.

Grant & Donna Alexander
Squirrel Valley
Cambridge, NZ.

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:55:23 -0000
From: "Richard Landen"

Subject: RE: Re: Big Engine



One SAE HP is 0.746kW

One DIN HP (aka PS) is 0.735kW

Hope this helps. I've always used the former!

The conversion losses thing is a red herring - Watts and horse power are both units of power and are directly interchangeable in the same way a metres and feet. Losses should be accounted for by multiplying by the % efficiency of conversion where required.

Kind regards

Richard Landen

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:44:10 +0100
From: "josef wagner"

Subject: Re: Big Engine



good evening roy
that is not absolutely correct.
there is sae HP and din HP
the differency is that sae describes the motor power without all small drives such as water pump, colling ventilator, hydraulic pumpe etc
best regards
josef wagner

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:03:24 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: New file uploaded to 7-plus-NGM


Great shot, is that a tender added or a riding car?
Arno

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:34:12 -0000
From: "srcl_24"

Subject: new photos



Hello,

I have uploaded 3 photo's I took of the Sandy Ridge & Clear Lake Railway. 2 of them are rather large as I am learning how to resize. I will delete after a week to keep file size down. When I learn to resize smaller will repost to file section.



wiating for a cleanup of a derailment



Shay #4 bring wood to Woodshill.jpg



Shay #4 spotting a load of wood while helper engine waits in clear

Tom Casper

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:08:47 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Experience with Char



Hi all,

I can give you a little first hand experience of Char.

2004 was a re-acquaintance for me with coal fired live steam when we acquired the 1.5" scale Great Western "King" over the winter.

We started the year with the coal that was supplied with the loco. Not really sure what it was but I'll guess at Welsh Steam coal. (Same as the prototypes used.)

It burned OK but clinkered badly. Loco did not steam well. We then picked up a Welsh/English blend that clinkered less but the loco still did not steam too well.

By this time we were beginning to think something else was wrong but also starting collecting different (available) coals to try.

We picked up a couple of bags of Char from Tom Miller in Oregon who uses it exclusively in his D& R.G.W K36 and a couple of bags of pure Welsh from Train Mountain.

Meanwhile I'd be talking to a couple of other King owners. (There are now three in the USA, One with Matt Jeffrey in Pennsylvania and one with Peter Nott in Los Angeles plus ours)


Matt suggested I change the bar spacing on the grate from .108" to .250. This we did and the difference in how the loco steamed was remarkable.

Back to Coal. With the new grate installed we can now burn either Char or Welsh. Both work well, neither produce smoke but there is a difference. The char burns very hot and very fast to a fine powder which the loco ejects up the chimney where it covers the loco and the driver like pollen in the spring.

But steam oh yes, provided one was willing to shovel.....the loco steamed very well however the char consumption was very high.

The loco now steams just as well on Welsh which burns more slowly therefore one needs to shovel less. The ash tends to drop into the ash pan but clinker can still be an issue.

With the demise of the Char producing plant in Australia, the decision was made for me. We will continue using Welsh.

Had this not happened I think I would have gone for a mix of the two.

If the supply of Welsh dries up or becomes too expensive, we may have to switch to Propane. But, for this loco, I'm going to try an keep it on coal, somehow....

TH

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:09:16 -0600
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char



Trevor:

Let's NOT start talking crazy now! :) LOL

Curtis H.

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:50:41 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char



That sounds a little like the lignite (brown coal) briquettes we used when I was a kid to start a fire in the stove. Just one sheet of newspaper needed, no wood for kindling.
No dirt and just a little amount of powdery light white ash.

The only difference from your description is that it did not burn extremely hot. It was expensive and we used it only to get the fire going before switching to anthracite (which would require tons of kindling to take otherwise).

Arno

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:00:41 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char



With the demise of the Char producing plant in Australia, the decision was made for me. We will continue using Welsh.

Somewhere I thought I read that the Char production was back on (Russell??) I have a medium size bag of the stuff and I have tried it out at the club.
It does burn hot, fast and clean in a 3 1/2" gauge locomotive. After the test runs we ended up with a fine greyish powder all over the riders and the equipment. The cost of getting it to this part of the world is slightly prohibitive to my way of thinking.

Had this not happened I think I would have gone for a mix of the two.

If the supply of Welsh dries up or becomes too expensive, we may have to switch to Propane. But, for this loco, I'm going to try an keep it on coal, somehow....

Have you considered oil?

I have a couple of people trying to convince me to go to oil for the burner on my locomotive. I do have the idea of making two setups for it. One for oil and one for propane and switch back and forth as necessary (read convenient) depending on fuel availability. Coal is not an option for me as there is no readily available coal that burns clean and is affordable.

kind regards
Dennis Port Alberni BC

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:38:04 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: new photos



Beautiful. I have copied them to my work computer for future enjoyment. I hope no one caught a cold in the process of the day.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:23:26 -0500
From: "mikell"

Subject: Re: Re: new photos



Tom
I would like to stop by sometime I live in St Joe do I need an ppointment??
I know your near Battle Creek somewhere

mikell

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:24:02 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char ADDENDUM



Trevor,
what is the colour of the char you use, closer towards brown or more shiny pitch black like petroleum coke?

Cheers,
Arno

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:24:34 -0500
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Looking for Southern Railway Arkansas Sub



Both the email and phone are not good numbers. Does this still exist and who would one contact?

Southern Railway Arkansas Subdivision

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:01:44 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char ADDENDUM



Arno,

Send me your snail and I'll mail you some. It is for 3 1/2" gauge locomotives (very small pieces) and I don't think I'll be needing it in the near future. I think I owe you a favour or two; n'est pas?

kind regards
Dennis Port Alberni BC,

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:14:30 -0600
From: "David Hannah III"

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char ADDENDUM



On the subject of "CHAR".

I would like to add some information about "Char" from Australia.

About five years ago, I brought ten, "50" lb bags of "Char" from Tom Miller of Oregon.

I used the material to burn in my Railroad Supply Mikado that I ran here in Texas. The stuff burns clean, produces very little smoke or ashes.

The one thing you need to remember is that "Char" burns very hot, so it doesn't take much to keep the fire going in the fire box.

In fact when I was letting some members of the Houston Area Live Steamers operate the Mikado, one member accidentally burned the grates in the Mikado and I add to asked Vance Nickerson to build some new grates.

Just be forewarned that "CHAR" is a very hot fuel, and it doesn't take much to operate a steam locomotive.

David Hannah, III

Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:06:22 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char ADDENDUM



Pas de quois, Dennis.

Thanks for the offer, I don't really need any, it is just to settle an argument, ahem, difference of opinions, with John Vincent.

Trevor,
John Vincent is working on a King and has met with Matt in the past. He was surprised to hear that there are only three running in North America.

Cheers,
Arno

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:58:52 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Arno M ? Digest Number 1168



Hi Arno, yes it is a tender with a seat. We needed a place to carry coal.
And if an engineer in training is running the engine, the instructor rides there to keep an eye on things.

Later:
Tom Casper

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:07:08 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE:chevwilliam Digest Number 1168



W.J.S.
When I go over in the winter I take warm gear with as one never knows what the weather will be.
The snow was not expected that day in such quanity.
It sure was pretty but a nightmare to keep from slipping the drivers in the slush.
We run more in the winter than in the summer due to fire problems so have learned to pack well.
Thanks for the comments.

Later:
Tom Casper

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:55:32 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: RE:chevwilliam Digest Number 1168



Have you fitted working sanders yet?
If not, perhaps a Kitchen size "salt" shaker might allow controlled sanding as needed.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:51:06 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Char



In reply to the comments read:

I'd call the Char supplied via Tom Miller to be neither brown or shiny black but gray.

I'm not very keen on converting the King to propane, the cab of the loco is very prototypical, propane firing would spoil that. I would definitely not use Oil. I just do not like the fumes. I shall try to keep it on coal. After 2005 I'd think the loco will be used less as the Garratt will be finished. So supply of coal will be less of an issue.

There is another reason though to keep the loco on coal. Education. As the years pass, fewer and fewer kids even know what coal is. They wonder what the "black rocks" are that I'm shoveling into the loco. In 2004 I lost count of the number of lumps handed out to kids to take home as souvenirs.

Personally I'm only aware of the three 1.5" scale Kings in North America. there may be more of course.

TH

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:30:04 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: RE: Experience with Char ADDENDUM



Yes the "char" we had been using here in New Zealand does burn hot, and as a result can be made to last longer than the same quantity of coal. Apparently the BTU's are more. I found myself shovelling more coal rather than the other way around when the char ran out.

I have "bent" cast iron grates in my loco using char, and even my current stainless steel fabricated grate has taken on a slight sag. As for the back tube plate, I saw one that ran low on water and the silver-solder had been dripping from the ends of the tubes. I guess till they let all the rest of the steamy water out in a hurry!!

Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley
Cambridge, NZ.

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:58:00 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Char



I liked your story on kids and coal. Reminded me of an episode at one or the other of the club tracks where I play conductor. Think this was on one of the weekend run days of the Largo Central Railroad,in the Central Park, oddly enough, in Largo Florida.

Club's agreement with the town, city, municipality,whatever, is that we are open for public rides on the first full weekend each month. Great track - remember to see it when you are in that area.

Anyway, i talk a lot, which habit is useful in keeping the kids, people, in line from becoming restive waiting until their ride gets about the track. One of the gimmicks that proves useful is having a lump or two of coal in my pocket, to pull out to display, especially when we have one or two properly coal fired engines at work. Quite often, the kids do not have the feigntest, or is it faintest, notion what those "black rocks(term often heard)" are. I recall a couple of years ago pulling this stunt on a couple of boys in line yielding the usual negative reaction. Grandmother, their chaperone that day went ballistic.

"Your Grandfather went underground every day for ?? years to dig out that stuff and you don't know what coal is???"

Can't recall now which little town near Scranton the line came from and I didn't want to get into a discourse comparing anthracite and bituminous.
Luckily, a train showed up and I could stop my pontificating.

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:03:10 -0000
From: "GB"

Subject: Grizzly Machine Tools



Hello List
I am looking for feedback pertaining to the quality and performance of Grizzly Ind. machine tools just got their catalog and they look imteresting
Thanks in Advance Gil

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:20:16 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Grizzly Machine Tools



I own a small Grizzly lathe and it works fine. Just remember you get what you pay for and if you want a small hobby machine they supply some nice units. I have a friend who bought a small lathe mill unit and was disappointed because it won't hog a .250 cut like my large machines. I still use the little 7'' lathe from time to time when it just isn't worth starting a big machine to make small brass bolts and bushings.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:36:36 +1300
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Grizzly Machine Tools



Gill - I will be interested to see what others think. I have no experience with this brand directly but here are some general thoughts:

1) I know many on the list will feel these tools are inferior to older established brands, but I would think having a cheap tool is better than none.
2) Beginners are unlikely to be able to get highly accurate with any tool and will probably not notice the difference. Plus it depends on what you actually want to accomplish anyway. .
3) People just entering the hobby may not know what they want to do long term and these tools provide an introduction. (Everyone is concerned about getting new people into the hobby - encouragement etc etc) .


Hope this helps
Chris Draper
Winter Creek Tramway
Auckland, New Zealand

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:11:38 -0500
From: bgwmoxie@aol.com

Subject: RE: Grizzly Machine Tools



Keep in mind they advertise 2-3 open house Big Saving Sales on dinged equipment...A buddy of mine got into a complete work shop with extras for what he originally would have paid for just one machine....
Take a looksee on their home page:
www.grizzly.com

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 06:53:44 -0600
From: cj.trainer@juno.com

Subject: Re: Grizzly Machine Tools alternative



If anyone is interested in quality machine tools for our hobby, I am selling my MSC Vectrax 2 Hp mill and MSC 13x40 lathe for almost half what I paid. They are like new. (Am moving too far to take.)
See my ad in Live Steam Jan/Feb or email me.
Charlton Jones

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:24:55 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: sanders Digest Number 1170



Hi W.J.S.

Engine #7 has working sanders. Our other two don't. The sander doesn't work on air so plugs up with snow if it is deep. #7 is slippery even if no snow so have to keep hand on throttle when starting. Jack put a hole in the floor on the Caboose (over the rail head) so we can pour sand into a funnel and have some dribble on the rail. This helps some. It is tuff running in snow or on wet rail.

Later: Tom Casper

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:39:11 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: sanders Digest Number 1170



ANOTHER OFF THE WALL NOTE FROM THIS TWO FOOTER.

Although I never saw it myself, you are somewhat following prototype with that in caboose funnel sander. On the world famous 2 foot line up to Darjeeling in the Himalayan Mountains in India. the railway had a couple of (probably underpaid) coolies on the pilot pouring sand on the rail. Could have gone to rest camp there when I was in service. Didn't. One of the dumb things I've done in my life.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:38:12 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: sanders Digest Number 1170



Doesn't even have to be snow. wet rail, oily rail, greasy rail, leaves crushed on rail, catapillars crushed on rail, etc., etc. have all coaused wheel slip in my past. But the fun in working the train over the line in spite of the 'lubricated' track! Many good memories of runs of the past at LALS, now LALSRM, and other local clubs.Even a quick laid (for one meet) 'logging or mining' spur that was NOT graded to the system standard maximum grades or minimum radiuses, and was great fun with various geared locos and a few rod coupled ones too.
Night running with a train of gondolas with young peopld in sleeping bages asleep in them.
One night with a 4-8-4 and every car we could find (I think it was 34 cars total), with one to 4 people per car, oh the stack music, and the sight of a glowing red smokebox and stack with the safety valve feathering going up hill, we made two round trips if I remeber correctly before we pulled the couplers out of one pair of the cars near the front.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:48:17 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: sanders Digest Number 1170



Many good memories of runs of the past at LALS, now LALSRM,

?????

and other local clubs.

Bill,

Could you explain the above please?

kind regards
Dennis Port Alberni BC

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:39:19 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Steam Valves



I just found for those who need larger than true scale size valves a source, these are 1/8" pipe and both 90 and straight styles,I purchased both styles of them. The valve handle is a little large but with a little foot work or making of your own that can be overcome. Any way they are the United ones, 200 psi. Beckmann Boatshop is the supplier, got them to me in less than a week after I ordered them via USPS prioity mail after a phone call to order them. www.steamboating.net/index.html
Boyd Butler

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:41:29 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Valves Again



One thing I might add the pix of them are not quite correct, the stem for the handle is longer than shown and the packing part is shorter from nut to body of the valve.
Boyd.

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:50:06 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: sanders Digest Number 1170



I have been a member of LALS since 1971 and have attended many meets, christmas runs, night runs, etc., etc. There have been some really memorable times. The club recently reorganized and changed the name to Los Angeles Live Steamers Railroad Museum (LALSRM).
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:37:03 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: sanders Digest Number 1170



Thanks, I had forgotten about idiots on cell phones and 911.

kind regards
Dennis Port Alberni BC

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:31:41 -0500
From: "Charles Robbins"

Subject: Re: Re: sanders Digest Number 1170



William,
Was the name change at LALS something to do with the insurance problem that most, if not all of us are having because of our trains hauling the public?
Thanks, C. Robbins

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:21:12 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Deadbeat Notice



Lists,

Just a deadbeat notice on someone claiming to be a live steamer. Per his request via this list I made a copy of a full set of locomotive plans for this person, some 170 pages as I recall, and mailed them to him in the summer of 2003. To date I have not received any of the $55 I requested for my effort and mailing costs.

His name is Stan Rutledge, 8145 Pony Express Way, Maple Falls, WA 98266. His last known e-mail address is r11228re@earthlink.net. He has received the plans and said he was going to send the money right away, twice now. He has a wheel barrow load of excuses. Looks to me like a deadbeat.

I have always operated on good faith bargaining and VERY rarely been burned. I had NEVER been burned by any member of this list until now. Guess I just found the one rotten apple in our barrel.

Jim
James Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:52:48 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Coupler pocket size



Group,

In 1.5" scale, the standard coupler pocket size is 1"x2". But I'm planning a 2.5" scale flat, and was wondering if there is a standard pocket size for that.

Roy

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:58:48 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Coupler pocket size



Roy,

I use 1" x 3" rectangular tube for my 2 1/2" scale coupler pockets. The coupler centerline height above the railhead is 5 3/8" (an inch higher than the 4 3/8" height for 1 1/2" scale couplers). I stack a piece of 1" x 3" rectangular tube on top of a piece of 1" x 2" rectangular tube and set the centerline of the top tube at 5 3/8" above the railhead. I drill a 3/8" hole through the top of both coupler pocket tubes set back about 1 1/2" from the front of the coupler pocket. I then make a 3/8" dia. pin that will go through both coupler pockets (about 2 1/2" long). Now, I can use a 2 1/2" scale coupler in the upper pocket or pull the pin and remove that coupler and set a 1 1/2" scale coupler in the lower pocket and insert the pin. This allows using either 2 1/2" scale couplers or 1 1/2" scale couplers on the same piece of rolling stock, real handy when interchanging cars with folks who use 1 1/2" scale couplers.

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:33:54 +1300
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: Re: RE: Experience with Char ADDENDUM



PS, it's dark grey in color.

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:38:41 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: sanders Digest Number 1170



According to my understanding of the discussion at the time, the name change and State corporate filing was changed to clarify our status vis a vis the Amusment Ride Safety Regulations and insure continued future coverage under the Federal Exemption for Museum Demonstration Railways. As far as I know it was not an insurance driven thing, the costs IF we had been declared an Amusement Ride and Covered by that group of California State lLaws would have bankrupted the club immeadiatly. Just and initial inspection is $125.00 and hour per inspector for two inspectors and the permitting fees and required legal filings were estimated to be $7,000.00 to $24,000.00 each for several repeating annual filings required. Also the regulations for Amusement Rides would have been nearly impossible to comply with on our 7.5 gauge 1.5 sca;e equipment as they require roof and sides enclosing the passenters adn passenger restraints (seat belts/ safety bars, etc.).
As we sucessfully argued, and received rulings that, we are a demonstration / museum function, we modified our name and corporate filings to reflect that fact.
I hope this is useful to all.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:57:39 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Coupler pocket size



On my 2.5" scale 'gas-mechanical' we used two pieces of 1"x3"x6" rectangular steel tubing stacked and welded, the wall is about 1/8 so the pocket inside is about 3/4" high by 2-3/4 wide for each opening (two openings). The lowere one is set at 4-3/8" nominal above railhead. the width is a compromise between tight radiuses and not wanting the hassels of radial coupler mountings. My chosen prototype is the Uintah Railway, and the cars I have include three Flat cars that are being upgraded to double pockets and 2.5" scale trucks (they were originally built with 1.5" scale trucks and single pockets to allow running with LALS equipment adn a pair of Logging Disconnects I also have).
The 1.6" scale 'Daylight' car and Dynamometer car have singl;e pockets set at 4-3/8" nominal height.
The NG 'B' electric mine loco had one radial coupler and one 'fixed' coupler set at 4-3/8" nominal height(I sat on the battery box with my feet in the 'operator' station straddling the motor).
I hope this is of help.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 22:43:22 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: A Few Needs



HI all

I met a gentleman who is bout to try to finish a locomotive he started a few years ago. He asked if I could try to find some stuff for him. I have quoted his e-mail to me and if you can help him please respond and I will forward your comments. He lives in the North west in Washington State.

--------------------- quoted --------------------

Talked with you last week about getting valves, etc for my live steam loco I'm trying to finish. I currently have 1 Stuart valve 34-50-71544 (1/4"-5/16-26 (I have a 26 tap) and am looking for 3 more, plus 1/4" & 3/16" unions also male hex end union 1/8" copper fitting x 5/32-48 male thread, vacuum gauge 1" dia 0-30hg, right angle check valve from 1/8 pipe to 1/4" copper, 1- 3/16 street ell, would like to find reasonable price plain water gauge,

--------------------------- end quoted ---------------------------


kind regards

Dennis Port Alberni BC

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:36:19 -0000
From: "traindude80005"

Subject: Re: A Few Needs



Hi there:

I would suggest that you get a copy of a recent Live Steam magazine.
There are several good venders that advertise in there. I personally have used American Model engineering Supply and Loco Parts. I have had good service from both.

Lee Brown