7+-NGM-logo The
"7-plus-NGM"
mailing-list


7-Plus-NGM Digest March 2003

Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 14:01:18 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Serch engine for the archives-pages / new photos of my speeder



Hello all,

luckily I found a new server, where I could get a free search-engine. Since yesterday, you can search the complete message-archive through this service, and so, their is no need to login to yahoo to find some special in older messages.

And, I also had on friday a highlight during the construction of my speeder:

After some hard days, my mind-construction worked out and I can continue the speeder as gas-electric-engine.

Check out the new photos under http://www.7-plus-ngm.org/pcr/speedere.htm"

Greetings from Germany
your moderator

Hubert

Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:31:05 -0000
From: "Michael Crofts "

Subject: Re: New rail construction questions from a newbie...



Hi Mark and others -

Perhaps I can help. In 1996 I built a 3/4 mile 15" gauge railway which runs engines with average axle load 1.5 tons at max. 15 m.p.h. We have 3% grades and 80' diameter curves. See www.perrygrove.co.uk

Q:-.....a good bit of it is the preparation of the ground under the track.
A:- Drainage is important and I'm glad others have mentioned that. You don't need pipes in most types of terrain- just a system of soak-aways. We make our soakaways by digging a hole and filling it with clean stone wrapped in geotextile membrane to keep it clean. Where we have long down-grades we have a series of "weirs" under the track to hold back the flow of water. We have had some really heavy rain since we built the line - it has never flooded.
When you build an embankment or any other "made ground" (I think you call it "fill"), and you can't use sophisticated instruments to test for compaction, it is a huge advantage to leave it to settle for a whole year or at least a whole winter before you put anything on it. Chances are you will see movement by then, and can rectify it before you lay your track.
Q:- Ballast: What size gravel is the most common?
A:- In England "gravel" means nasty round stones that don't lock together. Crushed hardrock (I use limestone) is what you need. I use a 40mm screen but if I could get it I would choose 30mm. I think the best size depends on your tie dimensions.
Q:- How thick of a layer should be under the Cross Ties for proper drainage?
A:- I think 4" (100 mm) is a sensible minimum but the amount you need is also dictated by the loading on your ties.
Q:- Cross Ties:
- What is a good size? (4x4, 4x6, 6x7, etc.)
- What is the correct interval to space Cross Ties?
A:- Tie size and interval are a function of rail weight, curve radii, axle loading, & train speed. Heavyweight straight rails carrying tiny axle loads at low speeds need hardly any ties at all - just enough to keep the gauge. Skinny little lightweight rails with lots of curves carrying heavy axle loads at high speeds need masses of cross ties. Let me know your data and I'll suggest some tie sizes.
Q:- Is using pressure treated lumber OK to use?
A:- Depends what the treatment is. I absolutely hate CCA/Tanalith/tanalised timber. Bad news for we Euroserfs (sorry to be political) is the Brusslecrats have banned creosote. I don't know what we will do now. They'll probably ban bread next in case we choke on a crumb. Anybody on this list know the technicalities for designing concrete ties? I would like to explore the possibilities for 12" to 24" gauge.
Q: Scuring the rail to the Cross Ties: Spikes vs. Bolts. Which is better?
A:- Here's a huge subject. The best system in Europe is the "Pandrol" system but it's expensive. Spikes are hard to get out. I use special screws.
Q:- Rail Sizes:
A:- see above

Michael Crofts (author `Miniature Railways' )

Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:06:27 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: New rail construction questions from a newbie...



Anyone "doing" "real" two foot gauge would do well to contact the Mainiacs putting the WW&F back together at Sheepscot Sation, ME. Best looking new 2 foot track in Maine. Good wesite and I think Jim Patten is the chap to go after, or Dan Deering, or Jason Lafontaine (sp?) these guys are good.

Cam Brown

PS: I'll cc the folks in Maine so they will know who to blame should they get a rash of e-mail. Promise to join their group; they can always use the money and those with great upper body strength to schlep cut-in-two SG ties and spread whatever it is they use for ballast.

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:54:55 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Questions.



Hi All,

I am thinking about starting to build a small loco based on a 3 foot prototype, so that would scale out at 2 1/2 inches to the foot. My questions are as follows:-

1. Small relativley heavy loco, what thickness would you recomend?
2. Is there a way to calculate the weight of the finished loco based on the working weight of the real one?
3. Based on question 2, is there a way of calculating the strength on the leaf / coil springs that I would need for the suspension.


Being based in the Netherlands, please post full answers that do not refer me to magazine articles as I have no access to them.

Thanks

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:58:18 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Questions part two.



Hi All,

Sorry, questions 1 is missing the word "frames" so the question is:-

"what thickness frames would you recomend?"

Thanks

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:02:07 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Questions.



I am building a 4-6-2 in 1.5 scale, and it will weight in at about 1500 pounds, so depending on what type of engine I would think that it will weight about 2000 pound or maybe about 2500 pound at the most.
Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:04:16 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Questions part two

.

your frame rails should be between 3/4 inch to 1 inch
Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:09:48 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Re: Questions part two.



I know this will sound silly, but according to the drawings of the original loco, the frame on that were only 1" thick, are you suggesting that I make the model frames the same thickness? If I used a scale thickness they would come out at just over 5mm.

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:12:09 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Re: Questions part two.



Ah I get it you think that I am modelling American... no it is an English prototype with plate frame not bar frames.

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:19:56 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



you will need something about that size or good bracing
Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:25:54 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



OK I think I understand now, but at that you will need something about a 1/4 inch then, and if what I am understanding this is something like a tank engine? like maybe a 0-4-0 or a 0-6-0 type of engine, and if that is the case then it will weight in at about 700 to 1000 pounds
Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:30:03 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Re: Questions part two.



Okay... now we're getting somewhere! 1/4" thick is just over 6mm so if I err of the side of safety and make the frames say... 8mm everything should be okay.

Thanks Mike

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:34:58 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



Andrew:
I just took what I am doing and divided by 8 and come out with the size. My frame was 6inches on the real engine, and on the one I am building it will be 3/4 inches. I take the numbers of the real engine and divided by 8 and come out with the size I need. I don't know the numbers for 2.5 scale.

Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:41:32 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Re: Questions part two.



Divided by 8... if I do that that will give me 1/8". Maybe a bit to thin. I am also hoping to get some extra weight in by using thicker that scale frames. As you thought it is a 0-4-0 industrial loco (small and compact) so I think that the weight will be useful. 8mm would seem to be the answer without reducing the distance between the frames to far.

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:46:47 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



Andrew:
Like I said that is for 1.5 scale so I think what you are doing should be right. I am building a Southern PS-4 American engine that will be painted green, and will be about 13 feet long.
Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:52:26 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Re: Questions part two.



Mike,

I am planning to build a small Pekett 0-4-0 should be just over a metre long (+/- 3'6"), and if i'm lucky it will fit in the back of a Europian shooting brake, so I wont need a separate trailer.

Thanks again,

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 04:55:59 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



Andrew:
I wish you luck, and the very best, and when you get it finish I want to see a picture of it, and when I get my done I will send you a picture of it.
Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:10:15 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Re: Questions part two.



Sounds like a deal to me... but don't hold your breath. It could take years to draw and build.

Andrew

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 05:42:09 -0600
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



This scaling reference works fine for everything but the steam cylinders. If you size them with that method (dividing all dimensions by 8) with the steam cylinders, you will not have enough power to pull anything. I forgot what the method is to make the steam cylinders the correct size, but they have to be larger in diameter than scale size to work correctly.
Thomas

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 06:15:14 -0600
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



Andrew, what is a Europian shooting brake? I am trying to learn expressions form other countries, but this is one I do not know.
Thomas

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:46:02 -0800
From: cj.trainer@juno.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



Mike
Been watching your discussion with Andrew. Saw you are building a Ps4. Attached is a pix of my old engine which is up in Chattanooga now. (I have Pat Allen's 2.5" American now.)
Charlton Jones, Anniston, AL

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 10:56:07 -0500
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: 2.5 scale



The "magic number" for 2.5" scale is 4.8.

Does anyone know of castings for a 0-4-0 porter tank engine in narrow guage?

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 09:27:30 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale



I suppose that is the result of 12/2.5 = 4.8
Also I wonder if cylinder sizing would be based on the area of the original piston divided by the scale factor (in this case 4.8)?

As to the Porter engine, try contacting Dave Skagen at Western Washington Live Steamers. Phone 360-426-6280. Or e-mail Garry Housden at Garhous@aol.com.
Skagen restored just such a locomotive which is on display at the supermall here in Auburn (Seattle) Washington.
Regards, RK

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:23:48 -0500
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale



No. That in incorrect.

Area = PI times the radius squared

example: A prototype loco have a 12" Diameter piston. the area is 113 square inches. In 2.5" scale the piston would be 2.5". The area would be 4.9 square inches. 113 square inches divided by 4.8 scale factor would be 23. This is incorrect because the scale piston has an area of 4.9 square inches.

If you square the factor 4.8 squared = 23.04. 113 square inches divided by 23 = 4.9 square inches. The correct area.
surface area in 2.5" scale = surface area of the prototype divided by the scale factor squared.

4.9 = 113 / 23

At 100psi boiler pressure the steam would exert 490 lbs on the 2.5" scale piston. On the prototype the same steam pressure would exert 11,300 lbs!

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:27:48 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two

.

Thomas:
I am talking about the frame and parts like that. The cylinders are already cast so I don't have to do that part, so I am lucky that way. I am just having to do the frame, and the cab, and some other parts, and most of what I need I am able to get in casting. I am not going to try and do the cylinders, and I will send them out to be machined, along with having the wheels quartered, but everything else I am going to try and do. Mike Looney

Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:45:16 EST
From: excalibur5776@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions part two.



Charlton Jones:
I don't think we are allow attachment here because it didn't come through, but I would love to see the engine. Could you send it to me at Excalibur5776@aol.com maybe that way I could see it thank you. Mike Looney

Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 16:53:40 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Does anyone know of castings for a 0-4-0 porter tank engine in narrow



Michael Blaisdell:

Como Roundhouse Products has castings for the Porter 0-4-0. The castings are not stocked and are ordered from the foundry when orders are recieved, so response time is slow. Also, it is a work in progress and not all of the patterns are made yet, but there are enough to get a serious start.

Please contact me off line for additional information.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 06:37:42 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Questions.



Hi Andrew,

Hi All,

"1. Small relativley heavy loco, what thickness frame would you recomend?"

You said the prototype had 1" thick frames, that's 5.3mm. 3mm plate would be strong enough for your frames. Though 5mm will look better and 6mm would be better for the added weight.

12/2.5 = 4.8
2.5/12 = .208333

1" * .208333 = .208333" * 25.4 = 5.3mm
or
1" / 4.8 = .208333" * 25.4 = 5.3mm

2. Is there a way to calculate the weight of the finished loco based on the working weight of the real one?

Well, it's no real accurate way, but a "good" guess formula is as follows:

(2.5*2.5*2.5) / (12*12*12) = 0.009042245

2000lbs * 0.009042245 = 18.08lbs in 2.5" scale.

3. Based on question 2, is there a way of calculating the strength on the leaf / coil springs that I would need for the suspension.

You can use the previous formula to estamate weights based on the prototypes axle loadings, but you're best off to build the engine and do one of two things; Either just make some springs and either add or removes leaves as needed. and/Or swap out coil springs for stronger/weaker ones. OR build the engine and use solid blocks to fill in for the springs, then once the engine it built weigh it and make/purchase springs as needed.

Remember that physics dosen't scale down. If the prototype used a 1" dia steel rod, then a 5mm steel rod would look right but a 2mm steel rod would probably be strong enough to do the job.

Curtis F.

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 08:37:57 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Re: Questions.



It seems that the weight of an assembly can be roughly equivalent to the cube of the scale.
That is because weight is directly related to volume or cubage (length x width x height).
I say roughly because the percentage of open space might vary from prototype to scale model, and the weight of materials of the components will vary also.

The original question about scale power is still intriguing.
Someone commented that a simple scale down of piston diameter would result in an under-powered model. Perhaps the scaled piston area should be in proportion to the weight (i.e. cube of the scale) also.
As to component sizing, just a little knowledge of strength of materials will do.
Bending strength will ratio to the section modulus.

But more importantly "springiness" or stiffness will ratio with the moment of inertia.
Those are technical terms, I know. It would be laborious to explain all that here. But I am sure the subject of strength of materials can be researched at the local library.

As a matter of fact it could be an interesting hobby.
The whole question of how big to make something to carry a weight or load propelled me into engineering school in 1958. But that's another story.

Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:26:48 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Questions.



Glad someone else answered this question abour doing a SWAG on model weight relative to the prototype. Lo these many years ago when I as active and agile, I remember working out the figures on B&SR #7 2-4-4T and SR&RL #24 a Praire comparing what I'd learned models weighed . Came out close dividing the cube of the scale into prototype loco weight,

This is a comment, not gospel. I wonder how this might check out especially on 2.5 scale models of Colorado moguls and Mason Bogies.

Cam Brown
The Two Foot Crank

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 03:50:35 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Questions.



Richard,

"The original question about scale power is still intriguing.
Someone commented that a simple scale down of piston diameter would result in an under-powered model."


This depends on several factors. First of all is that the majority of pre 1900 engines were "over pistoned" and didn't have enough weight to use all the power they had nor the boiler capacity to keep up with the pistions. So a scale model of these engines tend to have nicly sized cylinders.

Now a 1930s-1940s engine scaled down may be "under bored" but how much power do you really need? A 1.5" scale pacific can handle 50+ people when built right. Maybe a 1.5" scale 4-8-4 can't pull as many scale cars as the prototypes could, but if you want to pull that many cars then double-head! :) Fun for everyone. And the smaller bore means less fuel and water consumed per mile.

If someone wants a 1.5" scale 4-8-4 to pull as many cars as the prototypes then it's time to look into higher boiler pressures, just like the prototypes. A 4-8-4 @ 125psi is nothing compaired to a 4-8-4 at 200psi. Then also add in lots and lots of lead, steel, etc. for more weight. One would also need to look into superheaters, feed water heaters, boosters, etc.

Curtis F.

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 11:27:08 -0500
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: stall vs slip



I have not seen an engine yet that stalls BEFORE it slips. This tells me the issue is not piston size and pressure but weight as it pertains to traction.

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 22:27:56 EST
From: GengH@aol.com

Subject: Locomotive design.



I'm relatively new to live steam. I do however have 50 years experience in engineering and am a strong believer in engineering. One of the things I learned in this time was not to try and reinvent the wheel.
I frequently see queries about how to design a locomotive, boiler, rolling stock, and track work, most often from beginners to the hobby. They want to design something from scratch, often something that has already been built by someone else, and do it with no design experience. Why engage in risky design and construction projects when there are so many examples of good practice already in existence and with so many builders who are so willing to help a beginner?
I'd suggest building a simple locomotive first using an existing design, and with help from experiencd old hands. If you later want to reengineer a Big Boy or a Challenger you'll have some experience to fall back on.

George Hoke
Kitsap Live Steamers

Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 20:53:39 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: Locomotive design



Is 50 years how long it takes an engineer to learn some lessons from the real world? <G>
Anyhow, as a newbie, I like to ask those kind of dumb questions, not to try to reinvent the wheel, but to decide which wheel to purchase. I too had to learn the hard way. I built a Davenport shaped loco from scratch, and made lots of mistakes along the way, but I'm sure glad I learned those mistakes from a $400.00 hunk of scrap metal and salvaged parts than made those mistakes on a $3000.00 kit of unrecognizable castings.After turning my own wheels from a solid piece of rod, designing and redesigning a suspension system, returning those wheels, replacing the motor once, trying to build my own motor control system, and finally buying one from 4QD, and remounting that motor again, I've learned a great deal about a lot of things necessary to make a 2.5" scale loco work that are a lot better lessons than listening to the ramblings of someone who's done it before. It did take a bit longer though.

Roy Stevens

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:34:37 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Locomotive design.



"Why engage in risky design and construction projects when there are so many examples of good practice already in existence and with so many builders who are so willing to help a beginner?"

Reason #1) For some of us the real challenge/joy of the hobby is in the design work.
Reason #2) People are tired of seeing the eaxct same Gene Allen engines just painted different shades of black and with different road names.
Reason #3) You'll learn more about the hobby the more you stray away from the prints. Learn pattern making and cast your own wheels. Learn lost-wax and make your own detail parts.
Reason #4) In getting answers on how to do things not to-the-print you can meet some very spectacular people and make great friends.
Reason #5) It's easy. You don't have to redesign the engine, just changing wheel spacing and length of the boiler can make a world of difference. This isn't rocket science. :)

People should build what they want and not be limited to what's avilable. A lot of thought and a little talent can go a long way.

"I'd suggest building a simple locomotive first using an existing design...

A very, good suggestion, but not for everyone. I've met people who could have built a Challenger from scratch on their first try, but ended up building a small simple engine to-the-print and were upset at the time they wasted. Though, you are generally correct.

I'd be more inclined to reccomend buying the prints to an existing engine and making personal modifications. The Railroad Warehouse "90ton Logging Mikado" would make a killer consolidation!
Or a nice 2-10-2! Or a 2-6-2. A big 2-6-0. All using the same valve motion, wheels, cab, smoke box, etc.

Heck making an extended, or shortened smoke box would be neat on some engines currently on the market and there's no engineering involved there.

Imagie a Little Engines 1880s Baldwin 2-6-0 as an 1890s Northern Pacific 2-8-0. That would be Sweet! Or just pull back that front axle to give it an odd wheel spacing.

Just decied what you would like to change, go to a meet and ask around for advice on how to do it, or look for possible problems.

"...and with help from experiencd old hands."

Absolutly. I would never reccomend anyone starting on any project without the eyes (and brain) of an experienced builder looking over their shoulder. Look at the most exprienced builders in the hobby, and they will all have someone looking over their shoulder at their work. :)

Cheers,

Curtis F.

PS. Please attribute rambeling thoughts to medication clearly marked with "do not opperate heavy machinery", and my computer is heavy. Please attribute bad spelling to my lack of attention in grade school. ;)

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:59:52 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Re: Locomotive design.



Hey guys, it is only a hobby.

But I do wish someone would publish a guide to locomotive plans
And I think "live steam" should refuse to publish a picture of an overweight person atop a locomotive unless there is a reference to the source for plans to the model.
that goes for regular and underweight guys too, but there seem to fewer of those.
Model airplane news for instance lists a plan source for almost every model pictured.
Now don't get uppity, those guys spend a lot of time and money on their hobby too.

By the way I have made a nice little collection of catalogs by writing to all the companies that advertise in "ls".
Enough plans to keep me busy for a long time.
And for those of us who might live far away from other live steamers (or just like to keep one's own council) the internet is full of links to technical information.
Often times the advice of the old timers comes with too much baggage. Old text books and other publications tend to be better.
Check out the books offered in live steam magazine.
Hey i've got to get back to work on my hobby.
Bye

Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 18:03:02 -0800
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Re: Locomotive design.



Hi Richard, Curtis, and all

Being somewhat overweight, and having had photos of my engine & myself in a few magazines, I'd like to point out that there wasn't a source of plans for my engine. I started with two pictures in a book, a few dimensions (driver diameter, cylinder size, a weight (wrong)) and over a number of years found out some additional information, drew plans and built an engine.

This was my first attempt at building a locomotive.

Things that I did do (not necessairly in this order)
1. Buy a set of drawings from Gene Allen (for his American), which gave me a lot of information and helped provide an answer of how everything was done on his model .... I used these to insure that I had a comparative answer in my design.
2. Got the Australian boiler regulations ..... which should be considered a very good design guide for model loco boilers.
3. Got my hands on as much locomotive information as I could (full size practice and model)
4. Hung around with other live steamers, and got as much time running other engines as I could ..... tried to understand how and why each one behaved as they did (aid in making tradeoffs in my own design).
5. Decided that I really wanted a locomotive, and although a Big Boy, or Cab Forward would be really neat, limited my engine choice to one that I might realistically finish. (Narrow Gauge American) (only 4 drivers to machine) (picked a prototype that had historical interest to me (we used to live along the right of way where the prototype ran) (also picked an early engine without brakes on the loco, to minimize the number of parts I had to make).

I personally would never consider telling someone what to build or what not to build, that choice is up to them. I do believe that helping someone understand what they are undertaking, and helping them find information, gain knowledge & expierence is the most I can / should do.

Regards,
George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:11:17 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Locomotive design...guide?



Richard

"BUT I DO WISH SOMEONE WOULD PUBLISH A GUIDE TO LOCOMOTIVE PLANS..."

What kind of guide?

Curtis F.

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:21:57 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Re: Locomotive design.



Well now that you have built the engine, how about some plans to help someone else. The country is a vast place. It is full of places empty of any locomotive club.

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 06:26:29 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Re: Locomotive design...guide?



Well I could start by making a list of all the names , addresses , etc. of the companies I have collected.
But not just right now.

Besides I think such lists already exist as links on several live steam sites.
In a way the internet is a vital resource for any hobbyist..
And the books advertised in live steam magazine are a good source for instruction on machine shop techniques.

A visit to the libretto will gain access to books on boiler design.
Much more authoritative than opinions.
RK

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 22:48:50 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Re: Locomotive design.



I think it's great that somone is willing to design their own locomotive. There is a lot of work involved but the end result can be that much more satisfying. I built my first locomotive from a kit. My second locomotive I built from plans only and made 99% of the parts from bar stock. My third and fourth locomotives (I am building 2 of them at one time) is a total design of my own using some "tried and true" formulas for the basic calculations and trick of the trade that I learned from building my first two locomotives. Everything will be made from barstock (or sheet stock). There is no reason why someone cant built exactly what they want. Especially if the have the ambition to build an entire locomotive from the ground up. Some guidance from a knowledgable person could be helpfull but not 100% necessary. There is enough information out there in the form of websites and books to build your own loco. And build a good one at that.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 13:16:27 EST
From: KA2TTY@AOL.COM

Subject: The Great Train Debate--A newbie weighs in



Greetings from Tacoma!

I'm a relative newcomer to building my own trains (though I've been collecting them for 26 of my 32 years) but that doesn't preclude me for having my own opinions, such as they are.

I wholeheartedly agree that the best thing a newcomer with precious little experience (such as myself) can do is to ally himself or herself with those who have "been there and done that." From everything I have seen, knowledge is truly power, and it's probably the major difference between creating something that provides enjoyment and some expensive form of self-torture. The expansion of the internet has made it possible to find and acquire all but the rarest of designs. It also helps to get us newbies tied into those in the know. (Personal note: Danke schon, Herr Hubert!)

With all that being said, the second most important thing to building a locomotive is passion. Having knowledge is great, but I believe that devotion would make the countless hours that are spent designing, building and redoing go by quicker. Otherwise, it's an expensive form of tedium. I have been collecting Marklin trains for most of my life (see above) and am particularly fond of German stock.

Basically, I'm going to build a 2-6-0 Type 24. Though I know it will be harder than if I just kit bash an American Mogul, I also know that I will have more fun (and not regret the time and money invested) when I'm done.

Regards,
Erik

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:26:04 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Prototype Harp Switch Stand Value



The Joshua Tree RailRoad Museum is being given a DSP&P prototype Harp Switch Stand in first class condition including the target. Does anyone out there in narrwo gauge country have any idea what the value of such a rare collector's item might be worth? We need to help the widow who is donating it put a value on it for tax purposes...

Rudy van Wingen Vice President JT&S RR Museum

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 20:22:31 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Prototype Harp Switch Stand Value



Rudy;

Please contact the Colorado Railroad Museum in Golden Colorado, maybe they can be of service.

David Hannah, III

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 02:39:54 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Loco Design



My first goal when I got into this end of the hobby was to make something that moves. I can say now that I have accomplished that goal. I took my loco out yesterday, and apart from a loose drive sprocket set screw, it performed flawlessly. It has two deep cycle 75 amp/hour batteries, a 4QD controller, and a four brush 1/4 HP 24V motor connected to the wheels through #40 chain. It has three point suspension, which is to say the rear axle has two fixed contact points to the chassis, and the front has one fixed contact. There are no springs, but the ride quality is good. I built this from scratch except for the electrical system with bits I scrounged up around my shop and at a local industrial outlet, with only a rudimentary knowledge of large scale railroading, though I have been a model railroader since I could hold an Xacto knife.

A couple pictures can be seen in the Photos area of this group.




I can say that I probably wouldn't have gotten the thing to run without the help of this group. I plan on cosmetically finishing this loco, adding couplers, then building a D&RGW gondola.I would do several things differently if starting over.
First, I would use smaller batteries, which would result in a shorter wheelbase. The long wheelbase likes to bind on sharp curves with aluminum rail. The motor has enough umph to power through, but the drag is noticable.
Second, I would plan for the cosmetic portion of the loco a bit better. I'm having difficulty making it look like a locomotive since the body is more or less an afterthought.

Roy Stevens

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:03:46 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Re: Loco Design



Hi Roy,

Thanks for sharing your locomotive experience and priorities. I've had similar thoughts. I was wondering how long your wheel base was, and what radius it binds on?

Michael Lavrich

Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 18:57:33 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: Loco Design



Michael,

The loco is about 36" long, with a 24" wheelbase. It tends to drag on aluminum rail laid to anything under 30' radii. Out at S&S Shortline, one curve in particular has kinks at the end of every section of track, and the loco really likes to dig in at these. It does very well on steel strap track, aka groovy track. If there's a next time for a four wheel locomotive, I'll probably use a wheelbase of 18" or less.

Roy Stevens

Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:59:12 -0000
From: "rjkplans"

Subject: Couplers



Just a brief note to those who sent me information on rail car couplers.
Many thanks to both of your for your kind efforts.
Along the way I have obatined my own copy of the 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia, and many pages from the 1925 edition also.
Both books did come to me via inter-library loan. I was surprised.
What a terrific source of information on railway equipment.
In the course of installing a new video card to support my new 3D CAD program I pushed the "wrong" button.
Well, now I have everything back in working order, except my address book was overwritten, and of course I had not backed it up after adding many new pieces of information.

(Only a computer geek could write a program that does not provide some sort of default backup. But of course that too is another story.)

So if you guys would send me another e-mail from the east of canada (Toronto), and somewhere in Florida, it would be appreciated..
By the way I am interested in the design of coupers as a part of my drawing package for a Shay locomotive.
(Hmm, an article for Live Steam Magazine on couplers might be interesting too.)
I have been collecting L.S. magazine since 1999. Sure makes me want to build something.
But my drawings have first priority. Besides, making drawings costs me little.
Most of the mechanical stuff is complete in 2d, now for the 3d drawings on the new software.
Sure are a lot of parts to a locomotive. Probably more than in most of the machines I used to design back before retirement.
Regards, RK

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:09:01 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: Upscaling the Climax



Having just purchased Mr Hiraoka's fine book on building the Climax I am pondering the feasibility of scaling up to a Narrow Gauge format on 7.25" track. His notes on upscaling to 1" or 1.5" scale are excellent and cover the subject well. Has anyone used this book (or one of it's sister volumes) to build a 2.25" Scale (3x = approximate 3'6" gauge) or even 3" scale (4x books dimensions)?

Regards
Chris Draper

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 09:18:43 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Chris,
It may even be possible to model as if 2 foot gauge, go 3 3/4" scale and have a real hauler. That is if you want to move a State or two. :o)
regards
Dennis
There is only one "Smartest Dog in the World" and every little boy owns it!

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 18:40:55 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: HarpSwitch Stand value thanks




I wish to thank all of the members that sent in suggstions and estimates regarding the value of the DSP&P harp switch stand that the Joshua Tree & Southern RR Museum is receiving as a donation.

I was given the name of an auction house/appraiser in Denver that also does the appraisals for the CRRM and they will do a professional job for the JT&SRR Museum including providing us with the IRS forms needed.

When the transaction is complete and the stand is installed I will post photos on the list and on the Museum's web site.

Is this a great group or what?!?!

Rudy van Wingen
Vice President
Joshua Tree & Southern RR Museum

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:18:50 -0800
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



REPLY TO DENNIS:
Dennis - I wonder if you know that there is a beautiful 2-1/2" scale Heisler on display at the Nicholson Mfg. Co. plant, which I understand is loacated near the airport in Sydney. It was built by my good friend Dennis Riches, and I tried to own it, but was beat out by Bill Nicholson, who was Dennis' former employer.
Can you please send me your e-mail? I lost it in a computer meltdown.
Howard

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:11:21 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Well so what.
Sydney Australia is not on my list of places to visit.

Ok, here's my point.

Live steam owners are forever strutting the stuff they own, or have the means to own.

But it is seldom that any of them have any inclination to share information IN THE FORM OF PLANS.
If I was standing in front of the wonder mentioned, what could I, as a potential builder, do with the view?

Just look I suppose.
And admire the wallet power of some guy.

Would Dennis Riches care to share, even for a price?

So what is this hobby?
A place to boast, or a place to build.
RK Seattle.

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:33:40 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Richard,
Thanks for posting Howard's reply to my posting.
I have found the Live steam group (world wide) very good at offering help and have encountered all kinds of this help from Australia, Toronto, Hertfordshire UK, Denmark and Finland. Now this is for my current project of a 3 3/4" scale 7 1/2" gauge 0-4-0 + 0-4-0 24" gauge Garratt that was built in the UK and operated in Tasmania, Australia and will result in a ride in the cab model. I have had help finding and procuring plans from the original builder's archives and from drawings made by individuals for their own use. Dennis Riches has built a lot of beautiful models that are now owned by friends of mine. Now Sidney is just about 22 miles north of me and about 140 miles north of Howard up here on Vancouver Island British Columbia, Canada.
Mister Nicholson bought the locomotive to use as a centre piece for his main office and in its setting it looks terrific, although I like Howard would rather see it on VIME, Kitsap, BCSME, or what have you track every weekend the purchaser does have the ultimate right to do with it as he chooses. When I have finished my drawings they will be made available to whoever wants them and whoever can read them as they will be done in some sort of CAD program.
Howard, try trainzattelus.net if yo u want me direct trainz @telus.net hopefully we will see each other at one of the events this summer.
regards
Dennis (Downtown Victoria BC Canada)

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:45:43 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Upscaling the Climax



The Garratt sounds like an interesting project Dennis - Similar in form factor to the Roger Marsh Garratt on the Moors Valley Railway (UK)?

Love to see some photos - even partially built.

Regards

Chris Draper
Auckland NZ.

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 12:21:33 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Well I AM EMBARRASSED.

Here I am jumping to conclusions about a far away land.
Of course Sydney BC.
My dad grew up on Vancouver Island. I've bee there many times.
AS a person of Canadian parents, but born in the US, Seattle is about as close as I can get to my favorite place which would be the island.
Still don't you find that there is a lot of photography of wonderful models, and yet it is so hard to find plan sets.

I myself am a retired mechanical engineer. Currently I am occupying my time by making up a set of plans for the 150 ton WM #6 Shay, the last and largest from 1946 I believe.

If you would like to collaborate on plans, let me know. I am sure there are lots of land-locked and would be hobbyists who might be interested in really good plans sets. This is a huge continent, with many a place far removed from a train club.,
I am so impressed by Kozo's work, now there is a good set of plans. It seems many quibble with some of his methods, but hey they work for him. And the books are really very well illustrated.

Anyway, from my background in machine design and building I find most plan sets need a little help.

Many are very crowded, lack assembly drawings, and in general are not very clear.
But at least someone tried.
Now that 3 dimensional drawings can be made the parts can be illustrated much better than ever before.

Besides my budget is really limited just at the moment. So hours spent on the computer are not problem.
Well thanks for your gentle "straightening out"
Regards, RK

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:37:13 -0000
From: "rjkplans"

Subject: Boiler design



Does anyone know of any source for articles on boiler design by John Van Riemsdijk.

He has been an advisor to the Aster company for the design of some of their products. Wow now those are some beauties. Different scale of course, but still wonderful.

There is a very good article in the Aster catalog on boiler configurations authored by "JVR".
And I have come across references to a "JVR" boiler.

Some suggested joining G1MRA-USA, however they do not seem to have an article index or references to articles by "JVR".

I understand Mr. Van Riemsdijk is retired and living in France.
Can he be contacted?

Sure would like to learn more about his thoughts on the design of miniature locomotive boilers. I want to see if some of his concepts could be applied to 1/8 scale building. Stay bolts and flat surfaces under pressure don't interest me much.

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:38:06 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Chris,
I am just in the process of starting the drawings. I am sort of basing it on the "William Rufus" and the one that Wato has going at the moment. It was in the last AME and it sure looks to be a massive beggar. The pictures there solved about three big problems for me and the last hurdle (10' traverser at my home club) to building a 12' long locomotive was solved by making the front power truck removable.
http://www.moorsvalleyrailway.co.uk/locopage/15williamrufus.html
Once I have drawings ready I will post if anyone is interested but don't hold your breath.
regards
Dennis

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:36:09 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Curious: what is AME (something model engineering?)
I am familiar with Engineering in miniature from Britain.
RK

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 21:11:51 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Australian Model Engineer, their live steam magazine, and a good one.

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 22:39:26 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Richard,
Australian Model Engineer. pound for pound dollar for dollar the best ME magazine in the world. But that's just my opinion. :o)
http://www.ameng.com.au/magazine.htm will let you get an idea of this issue's contents.
regards
Dennis

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:29:04 -0500
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Locoparts: Press Release of new products



List

We just issued a Press Release to the pblications advising of our latest items to support our favorite hobby. If you wold like a digital copy please let me know and it will be on it's way to you. The file is MS Word, and is 1.8 meg. Please be sure your ISP will allow you to receive files that large.

If you requested a digital copy of our last catalog, check your email:
you may already have this.

Thanks for your continued support.

don orr
www.locoparts.net

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 07:59:50 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



THANKS.
RK

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:06:47 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Locoparts: Press Release of new products



Thanks for the offer.
Please include me in your distribution.
RK

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:55:10 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich" >

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Dennis,

I also would love to follow progress on this intriguing locomotive. Wasn't there a book and a complete set of plans for the 2' Garrett published by a Frenchman a few years ago? Any idea where to get a copy?

Michael Lavrich

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:12:02 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Hi Michael:

Dr. Christian Cenac wrote both the Tasmanian Garratt and a new book on the 60cm gauge French WW1 lines. Both are well provided with drawings.

If the Garratt book is still in print, I'm sure that a note to him would get you a price. Tell him I sent you :>)

Best,
Mike Decker

Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:23:53 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



Hi Mike:

Thank you for the information.

By the way, in 1994 at the Garden Railroad convention in Littleton, CO, you introduced me to the minimum gauge trains of Heywood and sold me the Hubert Household book Narrow Gauge Railways. I've since bought Maxitraks 7 1/2" gauge 0-4-2 and started laying track. Thank you for broading my railroad interests.

Michael Lavrich

Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 09:28:19 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



I'm glad someone saved me looking up Dr. Cenac and his great book(s).

One only realizes how little one knows about articulated, better - multiple engines sharing a common boiler, until one has seen this great work. Hope Dr. C is on the resurection of K-1 in Wales, due to run this year,

Aside:
Many people know of the first, and only flight of the Boeing DC2 1/2 in the CBI in WWII. By the same logic this engine should be the K1 1/2 being an amalgam of Ks #1 and2 shipped back home from Tasmania, with other bits and pieces as a new boiler

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:39:12 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Steel strap track



Group,

I'm planning on laying some 7.5" gauge steel strap track on the side of my house as the first part of a loop around the house. There are two things I'm unsure of though. I'm not sure about how to prep the ground for the track, and I'm not sure as to how to treat my ties to keep them from rotting away. Normally pre-treated wood is used, but I'm poor, and I got a whole bunch of free 2x4's already pre-cut to the length I need.
These are a full 2"x4" rough cut, and with a length of 17-17.5", this should provide a very narrow-gauge feel.
Thanks for any help you might provide.

Roy Stevens

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 01:59:18 -0000
From: "n11525re"

Subject: Fine! I'll try that again...



Hope to get in a little text before I hit "enter" this time...

I'm looking for someone who may know for sure the type of boxcar door hardware was used by SR & RL, and whether or not it was just common standard gauge parts. If standard gauge, I might be able to get measurements for drawings nearby (I'm on the left coast). I don't know why SR &RL might have wanted to go to the effort and expense of making different castings, but it's not as if stranger things didn't happen in the realm of narrow gauge....
Pics on the web have been inconclusive, and even if I could identify the parts it doesn't necessarily mean current cars are outfitted appropriately. I'm trying to finish a bunch of patterns I've been working on, and I'm stuck for the correct info here concerning the boxcar door hardware.

Any good info appreciated!!!

Stan Rutledge

Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:44:36 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THESE CARS.
AND PARDON MY IGNORANCE, BUT WHAT ROAD WAS (IS) SR&RL.

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 06:06:18 -0000
From: "n11525re"

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



The dates would be from about 1915-1935.
The SR&RL was and (is again) the Sandy River & Rangely Lakes Railroad, the largest 2-foot gauge railroad in the United States. There's quite a bit of published material about them, in paper and on the Web. If you're like me and trying to model that outfit on 7 1/2" gauge track, you are working in 3 3/4" scale.

Stan

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 08:39:59 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



How interesting.
I was thinking that I might be able to find something in the copy of the 1946 Car builder's Cyclopedia that I have from the library just now.

I will take a look, and let you know if I find anthing of use.
By the way where are you, I am in the Seattle area.
RK

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 12:05:23 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Steel strap track



I'm no expert as I only know first hand two club tracks constructed of rail from recycle aluminum storm windows.

From agedand jagged memory comes the almost strap track of the Cincinnati (sp?) Cinder Snifters (sniffers? something like that) where the strap is vertical, pressed into tight slots in the ties. This may have been an article in Live Steam a few years, or maybe several years ago.

Cam Brown

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 17:08:29 -0000
From: "n11525re"

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



I'm in Whatcom County, and I'm hoping to cast a fewparts today, provided the rain holds off. Have a lot of patterns I need to try out, with the info on the door hardware I'have a complete set.
BTW, while you're in that Cyclopedia, maybe you could find some info/dimensions on the 3/4 size couplers they used? Hopefully soon the results of my efforts will be posted to the Files section.

Thanks for any help.....

Stan Rutledge

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 07:11:00 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Upscaling the Climax



You're welcome Michael. I see that Christian has answered you, and you should be able to get his book.

I've added a couple photos of the latest progress on my 7-1/2" gauge, "half-size" Heywood railway, in the Erskine Tramway folder in the "photos" section of the list homepage.







I plan to be at the Narrow Gauge Convention in Denver in September. Maybe I'll see some of you folks then.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 07:38:28 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



Hi Stan:

On the whole, the Sandy River didn't build their own cars, they were bought from regional car builders. The reasonable assumption is that they used the current MCB style hardware, since full-size people would have had to use the grabs, steps, etc. In addition, there were "proprietary" part designs by hardware suppliers, which could be specified. The door hangers, and track, were pretty standard-looking parts. There was nothing complicated about the latch, it looks like just a hasp-and-staple assembly. Jim Dunlop has probably done one of his drawings on the box cars. Several have been published in the "Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette" ...maybe someone has an index to look them up.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 06:08:21 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Re: Steel strap track



Hi Roy,
The Power Supply Company in Oregon publishes info on steel strap track, as well as plans for the device to lever the ties onto the rails. Willow Valley Railroad in Brooks, Oregon uses that method, and it is a nice riding track. Also a fellow in Sisters, Oregon, but he said be careful to get your steel before cutting the slots as batches vary some, and he once precut a bunch only to have them turn out too loose.

I soak my ties in used motor oil as a treatment; it's cheap, gives color and makes them less tasty to bugs. I have several barrels for soaking and keep them in for several months, especially in winter when they are not heating up with the sun.

Be sure to widen gauge at least on curves to 7 5/8, I just use 7 5/8 everywhere.

Michael
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:19:34 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"
Subject: Speeder-update

Hello all,

after some days of thinking over, I made a major step in construction my speeder today.

Check out (and feel free to send me corrections to my text, because I'm not sure, if I wrote it correct) under < A HREF="pcr/speedere.htm">http//www.7-plus-ngm.org/pcr/speedere.htm.

Greetings from Germany
Hubert

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:20:35 +1200
From: "Hansen-Hill"

Subject: Re: Steel strap track



Just a reminder -

http://www.railsystemsco.com/Groovy%20track.htm

http://www.railsystemsco.com/Turnout%20drawing%201.htm

http://www.railsystemsco.com/Big%20Groovy%20Track.htm

http://www.continet.com/robbpynes/rmi/

http://dellepro.dellhost.com/steam/magazine/six.html

http://dellepro.dellhost.com/steam/magazine/five.html

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 16:21:46 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Re: Steel strap track



Hi Roy,

I realized I told you the wrong company. It should be Rail Systems of Sutherlin, OR. As I got on line to correct this I see someone has provided the websites. Great group!

Michael

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:36:47 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Coal availability in CA.



Rudy;

I have been getting my coal from the "CITY COAL YARD" in Brazil Ind.. Good stuff, and they will ship in 45 LB bags, and Vance and I like to burn it in the D&RGW Mikado.

Just my 2 cents worth.

David Hannah, III

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:00:10 -0800
From: "Rudolph P. van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Just my 2 cents worth....



David -

Sounds great! How many tons shall I prepare room for at JT&S?
Rudy (aka "Smart Ass")

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 22:31:34 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Re: Just my 2 cents worth....



Rudy,

Obviously, from the subject of the e-mail, you only need to prepare room at the JT&S for "2 cents worth" of coal.

Bill Laird

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:50:40 -0600
From: "Mike Eorgoff"

Subject: Re: Re: Coal availability in CA.



What size are the pieces in the 45 lb. bag?

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:11:38 -0800
From: "Rudolph P. van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 747



Bill Laird -

Another "S-A" heard from!

Of course, knowing David, 2 will probably go a long way...
--
Rudy van Wingen
JT&S RR Vice President
Joshua Tree and Southern Grand Scale Division (15" gauge)

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 08:56:02 -0800
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Steel Strap Rail



If one uses the slot method for there rail,the Vancouver BC club located in Burnaby,pardon the spelling, has a very easy and cheep method of installing it into the ties it must cost all of ten dollars if you use the good metal to make and very simple, an email to them would get the info am sure.
Boyd Butler

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:39:40 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Coal availability in CA.



The coal from Brazil Ind. is acorn size, small, great for "ALLEN" size locomotives.

David Hannah, III