7+-NGM-logo The

7-Plus-NGM Digest March 2005

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:12:31 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Fittings

Have just gotten some fittings from Coles Power Models and they were very nice to deal with along with very quick service better prices than Super Scale, the shipping was only what prioity mail cost not the sur charges that Super Scale has for there stuff, comes to over twenty dollars right off the top minimum for Super Scale. Boyd Butler ps Coles doesnt have a minimum order either.

Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:00:51 -0000
From: "srcl_24"

Subject: New Photos

I posted 6 new pics taken on the Sandy Ridge & Clear Lake Railway.
These are less than 100kb so should be better to download

Loading wood at Highpoint Spur

Plow train at Wooshill

Spotting load at Woodshill woodshed

#7 on turntable

CLL #4 on CBE branch leaving

CLL #4 and me on TT Phelps

Tom Casper

Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 19:29:43 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: New Photos

Thanks for posting the photos Tom. It's always good to see SR&CL action.

What's all that white crap I see there? Looks too cold. It was 68 and sunny here today.

James Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 15:59:26 -0800
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Tom @ srclry

How do I view your pics, Jim?
Howard Springer

Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 22:10:07 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Tom @ srclry


I'm guessing you meant Tom for this request. To see the photos go to the web site http://groups.yahoo.com/group/7-plus-NGM/ then put in your password, then go to Files, then go down to SR&CL in that list of files.
The photos from Tom are there.


Jim Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:36:29 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Photos & Howard Digest Number 1177

Howard, photos are in file section under folder SR & CL Ry at Yahoo groups.
See link below.

Tom Casper

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 08:46:01 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE :Mr Hobac Digest Number 1177

Jim, that white crap is SNOW. (BG) U get it up in the Sierras just east of u. We find the cold invigorating and it makes the steam stand out. Plus the warmth of the roundhouse stove is really enjoyed (for further ambiance) when u can get back inside from a run. Us MEN of the Midwest like to be out in winter with steam.

Will have a few more photos to post next week. Will try to erase that white crap for u.

Tom Casper

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:32:06 EST
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: axle question

Thanks for the help on the tolerances question. Now I have another.

I'm getting ready to make axles for the tender (plain bronze bearing). I'm working from Allen Models drawings. These show a verticle shoulder at both ends of the journal. I also looked at Master Car Builders axle standards from the late 19th century. These show a 1/4" radius at both ends of the journal. In 2.5" scale, that translates into .052".

Should I stick with the Allen design, or use the radius? If I use the radius, do I need to lengthen the journal, round the edge of the bearing, or both?
Any other changes I need to consider?

Ken Wing

Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 22:46:18 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: axle question

Dear Mr. Wing,
What does the Allen Models drawing show fo rth ejournal bearing contours?
If you machine the axle with a sharp corner (no radius) at he ends of the journal, it will be a stress riser and may break off in service.
That said, if Gene Allen designed in a radius on the journal bearings then a similar radius should be used on the axle journal to outter flange and journal to wheel seat areas. The MCB and later AAR and ARA learned by sad experience that sharp corners instead of fillets resulted in eventual axle failures, sometimes with disasters as the result.
By the way, the taper to an outside bearing car axle is intended to spread the stresses out so the axle does not break from flexing under load as quickly.
I hope this is of use.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 09:17:58 EST
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Re: axle question

The journal bearing is vertical on both ends, matching the axle contour.
Ken Wing

Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 21:06:53 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: axle question

Ken put roller bearings or needle bearings on the axles. I put the brass per his drawings and hate to get on my hands and knees to oil them often. I will sell you mine and build me some with bearings.


Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 02:31:35 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: axle question

A caution with needle bearings: if they are the type that uses the axle as the inner race, you should consider using a hardenable steel for the axle and have it heat treazted to get the bearing area up to the bearing manufacturer's recommendation. A set of unhardened (Cold Rolled Steel) axles lasted "real quick" under one of my narrow gauge cars.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2005 22:31:57 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: axle question

Good point I shouldn't have assumed that we all know it but most definatly use the matching races.


Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:21:27 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: axle question

Second opinion, if I may. Bronze half bearings with felt and oil in the journal box cellars works very well. Usually, fire ups are done on elevated track and oiling at that point is simple enough. Once a day for the journals is sufficient. I used this type of bearing for many years on a commercial operation.

Jim Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 08:33:14 -0500
From: "Gil"

Subject: Re: Re: axle question

do you feel needle bearings with an inner race would work ok ?


Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 10:02:17 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: axle question

If there is enough 'meat' on the axel, an inner ring could be fitted:

Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 16:27:25 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Aftermath from flood

After a great flood from Frances, most of my time was spent getting my machines up and running again. Now I have a problem. I always machine my parts to specs, and everything works fine. But upon tearing down the first steam engine, i found the area of the steam chest the slide valve runs on is pitted. The slide valve is brass, and the surface is steel. Can the steel be milled to remove the pitted surface, without a problem in the running of the engine??

Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 11:53:35 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Aftermath from flood

Go to http://members.surfeu.fi/animato/steamloco.html
(I am surprised that not _everyone_ here has allowed himself to get lost on Jan-Eric's pages),
there to http://www.saunalahti.fi/animato/3003/index3003.html
then to http://www.saunalahti.fi/animato/3003/3003z.html
then to http://www.saunalahti.fi/animato/3003/3003ax.html
finally http://www.saunalahti.fi/animato/3003/3003bx.html


Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 18:01:47 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: axle question

I concure with Arno's response. My solution to the previously stated problem was to use a better grade of steel, and have the ends heat treated to the bearing specifications. The have worked well since, and leave more 'meat' in the bearing area to fit the original space.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:47:58 EST
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Re: axle question

Thanks for all the ideas.
Ken Wing

Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 09:51:09 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: Re: axle question

I have another solution to add to the axle question. I use mild steel for the axles and drill and bore each end to a loose fit for a dowel pin about 1" to 1-1/2" deep. I think that 5/8 dia. is a good size. A small cross hole at the bottom of the bored hole is needed to vent the air that is trapped behind the dowel pin as it is pushed in. Then I coat the pin with loctite and push it in to the hole, one in each end of the axle. The length of the dowel pin would be the hole depth plus the amount needed to stick out. Using this method allows the axle to be heated up and the dowel pin removed if it should be needed. The dowel pin is case hardened and ground so that is an ideal surface to run a bronze bearing or roller bearing on. Well add this to your supply of solutions and have fun making axles. These dementions are for 1.5 and 1.6 scale, other scales would need different sizes.

Bob Petersen

Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 13:35:28 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: RE :Mr Hobac Digest Number 1177


You are right on. We have snow near to us but usually not here in town. I had about 15" of snow on the 12" gauge line one time. The RR was at about 3000' elevation. Bucked the snow with the blunt nose of the Plymouth and packed the radiator full. After that I built a beautiful V-plow using an old Jeep plow blade and rigged it to quickly go on and off the Plymouth. We never did have another storm like that one and I only had a chance to plow about 4" of snow after that. Quite disappointing.

Any way, I was raised in snow country in Oregon and don't miss it a bit. I look forward to seeing the next batch of photos Tom.

Thanks again,

Sonora, California

Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:28:43 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Needing HELP

The ports on my steam chests are steel, and the slide valve is brass.
When i had a flood from Frances (huricaine) all my equipment was under water.
Well when I tore down the steam engine, I found the steel ports were pitted badly.
Can I mill these down and still be able to run, or do i have to add a plate??
See picture under storm damage.


Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:30:21 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Needing HELP

Dear Mr. Van Lenten,
From memory of discussions from the past, not from personal experience:
If the original port face, where the valve traveled had been cut raised above the surroundings then you could possibly mill the surface to remove the pitting, but would need to get the surface flat and smooth. any 'tooth' or 'ripples' in the final surface will result in rapid valve wear or leaking.
Another way that might be better, replace the damaged valve port face wiht a new piece of material milled to proper port sizes and measurements and either replacing the raised valve face or inset into the original so as to give a renewed port valve face to mate to the brass valve.
It could be made from a piece of ground tool steel stock to approprate size and thickness, and retained by added screws set outside the of the valve travel.
Such a renewable valve face was used sometimes on prototype engines in the slide valve era. Replacable 'valve liners' were used for the piston Valve era.
I hope these comments are of use.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:37:33 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
From: hugh smith

Subject: Re: Needing HELP

As long as there is enough vertical play in the valve to valve stem area so the valve will seat properly, you should be alright. You're not changing the shape or size of the ports, just the thickness of the valve plate. There's nothing critical in this area so go for it.


Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:55:09 -0800
From: Info

Subject: Upcomng Live Steam Meet

Hi all,

Please acccept this email as a personal invitation to join us at the Over The Hill Live Steamers in Chiloquin, Oregon for our next meet.
We will be steaming up on May 28th and 29th 2005. Please check our website for details and signup information:


We are adjacent to Train Mountain and those dates are the start of their work week. Double your pleasure by attending both. Please plan on attending and having some fun in the clean mountain air.

Russ Wood
President, Over The Hill Livesteamers
Chiloquin, Oregon

Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:42:48 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Griffith Park Draft Master Plan Presentation.

I just received an e-mail announcement that the Draft of the Griffith Park Master Plan will be presented at a public meeting of the Griffith Park Resource Baord on March 30, 2005 at 6:30PM.
The meeting is to be held at Friendship Auditorium, 3201 Riverside Drive (just East of Los Feliz Blve.), Los Angeles, CA.
RSVP by March 23, 2005 to the Griffith-Metro Region Superiontendent's Office, Department of Recreation and Parks, Tel: 213-485-8744.

This is the revision of the Plan that has been in place since the 1970's and will have discussion and recommnedations on LALSRM, Travel Town, and the proposed Railroad from Travel Town to the Zoo.

Since this is following the LALSRM Spring Meet, perhaps some of us may be in the neighborhood for the meeting.

Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:09:50 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: African Live Steam meet High Wycombe, England July 9th 2005

The High-Wycombe Model Engineering Society will host the first annual UK African Live Steam Meet, Saturday July 9th 2005

Their website address is:

http://www.HWMEC.co.uk which also gives directions on how to get there.

Currently we have 4 SAR locomotives so far organised to be in steam for the day and are hunting down more locomotive attendances.

Currently on the "In Steam" Roster:

SAR Class 15F 4-8-2 - Andrew Giffen - 3.5" Gauge
SAR Class 15F 4-8-2 - Richard Niven - 3.5" Gauge (Ex-SAR Fireman)
SAR Class 15F 4-8-2 - Mike Jones - 3.5" Gauge
SAR Class 15CA 4-8-2 - Mike Jones - 3.5" Gauge
EAR Class 31 2-8-4 Unconfirmed 5" Gauge

Currently on the "Static Display" List:

SAR Class 25NC 4-8-4 part-built - Jim Nolan - 7 1/4" Gauge
SAR Class 23 4-8-2 - Richard Niven - 5" Gauge
SAR Class 16DA - 3.5" Gauge
EAR Class 59 4-8-2 + 2-8-4 00 Gauge, Kevin Patience

Unconfirmed attendances include an SAR tank locomotive and a highly-detailed Class 23 in 3.5" gauge.

We may also play host to some 32mm Gauge SAR steam - NGG16's and an NG15, two of which may even be coal-fired!

The North-British Locomotive Society are interested in attending and promoting the re-building of their full-size Class 25NC that resides with them in the UK and the RSSA are a possibility but I have not heard from them yet in response to my email.

Details for folks with locos - the legalities:

To summarise:

1. General Public and visitors, public liability covered on club insurance.
2. Static display and running models, owner will need to make own arrangements for loss / damage etc.
3. Running locos, owner will need public liability cover, this could either be his own (some model engineers take this as an extension on their clubs policy, we would need to see the certificate), or he could join HWMEC as a day member (circa £1) to be covered on our club cover, valid boiler certificates required.
4. Other drivers, as above would need to have either their own PL cover or join as a day member.
5. 16mm locos, as above to ensure PL cover.

Hopefully the above will not be too big a problem but as expected with events and when dealing with the public, the steam fraternity and clubs have to cover their backsides.

If anyone on this list will be attending (and I made a request in another posting too) - with or without locos - please be kind enough to let me know as I have to work with Martin to plan the stands and make allowances for members of this group for food and other bits and pieces.

Send an email to: sarspa_association@yahoo.co.uk


Bryn Morgan

Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 01:16:57 -0000
From: "srcl_24"

Subject: new photos to see

Hello all, I have added a folder in the files section with 6 new photos from this last weekend on the Sandy Ridge and Clear Lake Railway. Look for the March folder and I hope u enjoy Michigan in winter.

Shay #4 with snowplow on main

Shay #4 at Phelps

Jack Ozanich with his engine SRCL Ry #10

Archbar truck from flat car #438

Jack on plow

Cars at MP 2.6

Tom Casper

Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:53:36 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Upcomng Live Steam Meet

Dear Over the Hill Group.

I suppose I qualify - having reached the Lincolnesk age of four score years and a little bit. Having been subject to the usual depreciation expected for people of this geriatric stage of life, I must reap vicarious pleasure in knowing that you shall all have a great time.

I am a member of the Adirondack Live Steamers at Saratoga Springs, N.Y. Nice tack, Come and visit us when and if you can. The estimable R. VanWingen grops in on us whenever he finds himselfin the east. don't take my word for this.

Ask Rudy.

Cam Brown

PS: I am the two foot guru in these parts. Which leads me to admit that ALS is (properly) gauged at 71/4", rather tight for ,ost folks taste.

Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 20:24:11 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: new photos to see

Tom, thanks again for more great photos of railroading action. ~ Jim

James Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:37:55 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: new photos to see


A wife ago I lived about 100 miles north of you in Ontario. You sure enjoy winter there a lot more than we did. I tried skiing, down and cross, ice fishing (seamed silly since I don't use Ice in my drinks) snow machine riding (me and mine parted company a little too high going a little too fast) and sundry other things. Damn silly part was we put our trains away when the snow flew. Should have packed up a crossed the Mighty Mac and came for a visit.
kind regards
Dennis, Now living in Port Alberni BC

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:11:11 -0000
From: "Ed McCamey"

Subject: Re: new photos to see

I often explain some of my own history based upon which wife I had at which time as well!!! ;-|

-ed mccamey-

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:33:24 -0000
From: Frolin@Frolin.net

Subject: Frolin's new SR&CL photo section

Howdy Folks,

I would like to invite those interested in the 'Sandy Ridge & Clear Lake Railway', to visit a new photo section on my web-site...

These are photos taken during my various visits to the SR&CL, and also will include update photos that Tom Casper sends me to share during the year.

As time allows soon, I will be loading many more pictures that will include angles and detail shots of the equipment, trains, the railroad and such. This will take some time and I have a sample loaded so far. So more is to come, this is just the initial photos to see now.

This past weekend, March 12-13-14, I flew up to Michigan to work on the railroad with Jack and Tom, and took a batch of photos (ok, a couple hundred plus 2 hours of video). I have loaded in a quick grab of 22 pictures, that should give a summary of the work we did over the weekend. More photos from the visit will be loaded soon, this is just to get a batch up quickly.

I can't stress the words I have heard enough, "this is a real working railroad" and its just 1/3 the size of the real Maine Two Footers. Some of these pictures may show this, more taken when loaded will show "work on the railroad" that does not include "running trains".

Frolin Marek
Marek Mountain Railroad
Marek Mountain Mining
San Antonio, Texas

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 06:44:34 EST
From: tomeagles44@aol.com

Subject: Re: Frolin's new SR&CL photo section

Dear Frolin

Tho I am not a 7 plus NGM I am a 2 foot modeler and a Maine Maniac!! I model in 7/8N2 and have SR&RL # 6 a 0-4-4 Forney in Live steam and a B&H # 5 a 2-4-4 Forney in Battery powered,RC with digital sound and admire all things "2 foot' Thank you for this web site it makes you dream what a Rail Road!!!


Tom 7/8N2 Eagles
"Maine Done Right"

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:20:27 -0000
From: Frolin@Frolin.net

Subject: Re: Frolin's new SR&CL photo section


Thanks for the comments... I hope you went from the above SR&CL page, one level back/up my site to the 'Real Railroads' section of my Guide Service page, to find the page on the 'Cripple Creek & Victor NGRR' in Colorado.

Its a Two-Foot tourist line but has some neat equipment. I like the 0-4-4-0 O&K mini-mallet they operate. I have photos there of her, plus her sister engine that is on display in Mexico. Its the only of that that series built, fortunately the CC&V has theirs running!


Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:50:42 -0000
From: "srcl_24"

Subject: more photos from the srcl ry

I put in some more pics from this winter on the Sandy Ridge. Frolin and I will saturate u with photos.

shay #4 on Woodshill branch

shay #4 and train

broken a end truck, flat #438

Falt #439 carring wounded car home for repair

#7 at Jack's Pit

#7 by MP 0.8

repaired truck for #438

tom casper

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:21:27 EST
From: Lineshaft@aol.com

Subject: SR&CL photo section

The photos are great. I love the layout through the woods in the snow.

I have two request.
1- Can you tell us a little about each photo, like what's up with the Flat car on its side?
2- Can you take some close up photos of the Shay engine set? I.e.- cylinders, crankcase, trucks.

I'm on a long term 2 1/2" scale three truck Shay.

Dave Fontes
Rohnert Park, CA

Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:03:09 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: srcl photo questions from Lineshaft Digest Number 1191


Let me jump in and say about the flat car. It derailed and the truck broke.
We use Oak for the bolsters and we have found they dry out and start to crack over time. This car had about 10 years on it so were ready to fall apart. Jumping off the tracks and the brake rigging caught on something and that was all it took to brake it apart. We used car #439 to carry it back to the shop.

We are starting to use aluminum for the new ones as it should last much longer. Got one set done. With paint on them, you can't tell not oak till paint gets nicked off.

You can check our web site for plans on the trucks. I think Mel has a link to them. There are more photos of them there also. Srclry.com

Tom Casper

Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 14:49:06 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: srcl photo questions from Lineshaft Digest Number 1191

Do you notice any other differences between Oak, or other woods, and Aluminum for Bolsters?
I am curious About ride qualities, such as vibration or noise transmission differences between materials for background, and think your experiences with the truck bolster material change in an otherwise identical application would lend some light on the subject.
Best Regards,
William J . Stewart.

Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:39:54 -0600
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: William ? Digest Number 1192

William, The car wasn't back in service when I left so can't say about ride quality. My guess it may be noisier
But will let u know next month when I go back.

Tom Casper