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7-Plus-NGM Digest April 2000

Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:33:50 -0000
From: "Tom Miller"

Subject: New K-36 ready to run!!



Hello everyone. Bart Pond and myself have built 2 D&RGW K-36 loco's in 2 1/2" scale. We have been at it for 7 1/2 years and the big day is almost at hand. We are in the process of painting them and expect to run them about July. These are very highly detailed models.
If any of you are planning on attending the IBLS meets in Canada and at Train Mountain, plan on stopping by my railroad and seeing these two Giants in action. My railroad is part of the extended tour and is set to be open August 19th and 20th. See the IBLS schedule for more details.
Bart and I are going to make casting kits available that include hundreds of CAD drawings of each and every piece.As soon as one of them is painted, I will post a picture of it along side the other
unpainted model. We are in the process of building the patterns for the Westinghouse Crosscompound air compressors. These will be functional units and will also be made available in about one year.
Hope to see some of you this summer.
Tom Miller

Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:41:45 -0800
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: New K-36 ready to run!!


Hi Tom,

I was debating about some of the tracks to stop at, as I have visited yours some years back, but now I'll be definately stopping by during your open days.

I remember seing your K-36 in process, and it will be GREAT to see it in actions.

Regards,
George Potter

Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:41:27 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Reply to Tom Miller



Hello Tom --
I just joined this group a couple of days ago, and haven't sorted out all the details on how to post to it. We plan to stop at your track on the way to TM. I have a 2-1/2" scale Logging Mike, and presently have a cross compound air pump (nonworking) using Skagen castings. One day (or rathe r, one Winter,) when I have time I plan to convert the air pump to a working version. When you are ready to publicize it, I would like to purchase a set of your drawings to help me in my project.
Howard Springer

Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 22:54:19 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: 61 subscribers in three days / attachments



Hello all,

I'm really pleased and surprised: Up to this afternoon, there are 61 subscribers registered for our new list. That's much more than I expected.

And regarding attachments, Stan Zdonick informed me, that it's possible to view the attached pictur es by using the message-folder at onelist. That's really new for me, because in the past attached pictures where lost for digest- or online-subscribers.

So, I changed the settings, and attached pictures are now permitted. The only wish I have is to keep the filesize small, so that all with slower connections will still have an reasonable fast download.

On the other hand, please use the file-folder, so that we - and other visitors - can see our work.

It was suggested to ban commercial mails as well as private deals.

In my opinion, such information is the salt in the soup, and so, I don't want to ban this. But, if it will become to much, than I will change my mind.

I think, we all need informations, where to get needed parts, especially, if members are modelling american prototype far away from the states like me.

Hubert
Visit my 3" scale railroad under http://www.wetekamp.de/pcr_e.htm

Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:01:58 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Hello



Dear List:

Hello! I have just subscribed and for those of you who know me already (if any) I am sorry if you have heard my story before! :-)

I am Curtis Hustace and I live in Dixon, Kentucky. Dixon is approximately 30 miles away from Evansville, Indiana which in turn is in the very South West part of the state. I am 35 years and have been hooked on live steam locomotives since I can remember. Every Christmas my grandmother would give me $5 and I would turn around and buy a Little Engines catalog. I was In love with these locomotives! I wanted nothing more than to build one. I didn't know at the time that my grandfather had already built a 3/4" Northern and had started a 1.5" Northern (both from Little Engines). Unfortunately, I never met my grandfather (he lived in Hawaii . . . I in St. Louis) before he died and that was too bad . . . we would have had a lot in common. His locomotives sat in Hawaii for many years until my grandmother died at the ripe old age of 103 1/2 years. At that time one of my uncles received possession these locomotives and some rail cars. My uncle was also building trains (a member of Golden Gate Live Steamers . . .Richard Hustace). He had completed a LE 0-4-0 switcher, and LE 0-4-0 Crab. He just recently passed away and in his workshop was a box of castings. None of my cousins are interested in building a locomotive so my Aunt and Cousins kindly sent all the castings to me as a gift. They are of a 2.5" scale Allen Models Chloe. I am planning a railroad which (when finished) will be just over 5300 feet long one way . . . it will be an out and back, point to point railroad.

The second addition to the railroad (once the Chloe is done) will be either a Roll Models 2.5" scale steam or 3.75" scale steam . . . I haven't decided on which size I should go to yet . . . Or perhaps the Allen Models Lynchburg. When I get done with the first project I will decide on the second. In between I plan on purchasing a 2.5" scale Gas/Hydrostatic drive 65 Ton Switcher (from RMI) . . . lots of wheels for lots of traction for lots of construction.

Well, I have bored you all to tears now. . . sorry.

Take Care

Curtis Hustace
Hustace Short Lines RR
214 F. Rogers Lane
Dixon, KY 42409
812-453-0217 (Day)
270-639-6930 (Evening)

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 02:26:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Re: Hello


Hello one and all. Its nice to be hooked up with all you folks. My name is Thom Cleesattel, live steamer with the Tonawanda Creek Model Engineers in Amherst NY suburb of Buffalo, NY. Been a train brain as long as I can remember. I have stuff from N-gauge on up to 1 1/2 in. But recently got hooked on this 2 1/2 in size. I like the massive size although it can be overwhellming at times. Like the one piece casting for my #50 D&RGW desiel switcher. It's just about 200 lbs. of alluminum which was a real treat to lift onto the bridgeport. I thought everybody told me alluminum was a light material just like a ton of feathers as aposed to a ton of bricks, Oh well. If anyone's interested, there is a photo of the engine with myself and my nephew on the Finger lakes livesteamers page at www.northnet.org/wicksall/fllsmain.html . I'm currently scratch building a D&RGW narrow gauge flat car and high side gondola to go along with the engine. Lots o fabercating of parts like queenposts turnbuckles coupler pockets step ups grab irons you know all the usual goodies . Say did you know small square nuts are getting harder to find these days? I can't use hex nuts, gotta keep the rivet counters happy. A good friend of mine , Bill Cochrane also a fellow narrow gauge nut lent me his photos of the narrow gauge in Colarado back in the 50's when alot of the stuff was still around. This is basicly what I'm using for the details on the cars. Most of the photos are sharp close ups which really help a lot along with plans found in model magazines I should have a couple of nice looking cars good enough to keep the rivet counters happy. The only draw back is that the cellar is rapidly disappearing. This stuff sure does take up a lot of space I guess the Mrs's stuff will have to be relocated,of course when She's not home! Our club is also building 8 Fitchburg Northerns. Each member make eight of something on the drawings then we get togeather swap parts, figure out what we need next go home and make eight more of something. However alot of times eight becomes, for example forty-eight. Yours truly was asigned crankpins. Thats six pins times eight engines equals forty-eight pins. Guess what? The boys liked my work so much My next assignment was eccentrics, yep you guessed it another 48 pieces. It's still alot of fun making all those parts esspecialy when they are all exactly the same with no waste. Well time for some shut eye. I'll keep you guys posted on our progress possibly with some photos. Take care for now TC

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:44:57 -0700
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Hello



Curtis

I know you are a few hours from us but we are havung our 7th Annual grasshopper Short Line RR run the weekend of the 15 apr. WOuld be glad for you tp come. We are in SE corner of VA.

don
suffolk, va
Locoparts

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:02:48 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Hello



I would love to come, but I am leaving for Germany on the 13th for 12 days for a photo shoot. Keep me in mind for your next run though. Thx for the invite.

Curtis

p.s. my sister lives in Norfolk so I'm out that way once a year or so.

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:26:52 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Hello



Thom,

I'm having problems with http://www.north.org/wicksall/fllsmain.html

Only thing I can get is www.north.org but is a blank page except for the title.

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:09:41 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello



If you can get ahold of Russ Steeves at the Waushakum LS and pick his brain it may help with all those in-th-works Fitchburg Northerns. Russ' FN #5 (you've seen her picture in the magazines a number of times) is the best interpretation of this engine that I've seen. I think he sweated out a couple of 16ths more in dia. out of the cylinder castings which makes a huge diffeerence in her performance.

I'll cc Russ on this so you can steal his e-mail address.

Cam Brown,
Largo Central RR
Adirondack LS

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:25:27 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello



Picked up your 7.5 group note re the possibility of a 3.75' scale Roll Models. Being a self appointed apologist for Maine 2 foot gauge, severasl of the Moguls (and the later Praire conversions) are hiding just under the skin of tghe RM mogul. Just to bug my wife, Ileft the catalog open on top of the bookcase with a coiuple of plans of the maine equipment next to it. Futz with the cab and sand dome (using another steam dome maybe), Steph. in place of Walch, gear, con RM into spreading the first and second driver axle boxes a bit and one would have "Old Star" originally built for the North Carolina Laurel River and Hot Springs, sold to thw Wiscasset and Quebec thence to the Sandy River. Nice engine.

Cam Brown.

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:47:27 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Hello



I don't even get the blank page, I'm getting a 404.

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 12:47:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Re: Re: Hello



Hello fellas; TC here.A bunch of guys are trying to get the fingerlakes page for a photo of my #50 D&RGW desiel switcher. The address I gave out was apperently wrong . Sorry for the inconvience. My lame excuse is that I was tired from working all night stareing at negatives and making plates for our six color press at work. Any way here's the CORRECT address; http://www.northnet.org/wicksall/fllsmain.html I forgot the "net" in northnet. Again sorry for the trouble. The photo is under the spring'99 section center flush left.
Take care TC

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:24:05 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: New Hello



Thanks for the updated link, it looks like a great club. I noticed something in one of your photos:

Sorry, the file is not longer available online.

This shows what appears to be a highline supported by PT lumber resting on gravel. Is this the case? I'm drawing up plans for Pioneer Valley Live Steamers to put in a new smaller gauge highline. (1.75") I want to review all the options before I present to the group. I've heard this type of construction has been used by other groups for their highlines. Have you had any issue with stability?

I know this is an off list topic but many clubs have multiple gauges. PVLS currently has 3.5", 5", and 7.25".

Thanks,
Stan

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:26:46 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Hello/Russ Steeves



Listees,

In the interest of 7+ narrow gauge live steamers, do you think we could get Russ to join our list? I have the plans for the F.N. in hope of building one someday.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:00:44 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: New K-36 ready to run!!



Hi Tom; I have read with interest your mail on the K-36's.
I for one am interested in building one of these. Lets keep in touch as I'm interested in the castings and drawings. I can't wait to your pictures.
Thanks,
Bill

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:35:54 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello



Hi Cam;
I'm one of those nuts thats building parts for those 8 Finchburg Northern locos.
I made all of the driver bearing blocks for them.(48), then the axles, and who knows what else. I thought Tom was going to give himself a hernia when he and my son got the frame up and on by bridgeport to do the axle bearing pockets. Any info you or anyone else can get us on the Finchburgs would be appreicated.
I for one am a D&RGW nut having sent a couple of summers our there in the early sixtys. The wife and I even rode the narrow gage on our honeymoon and she even helped me get dimensions for some rolling stock.
Keep in touch,
Bill

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:50:36 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: New Hello



Contact Thom C. at his web TV address. We both belong to The Tonawanda Creek Model Engineers in Amherst NY. We have a beautiful elevated track using pressure treated lumber, for the 3/4 inchers. I helped Thom build it but it was his design and it has held up well. Better yet, your welcome to visit anytime. Our openhouse will be the last weekend in July, Its a 4 1/2 acre site , mostly wooded with inch and 1 1/2 7 1/4 gage on the ground as well as the elevated 3/4 inch track. We'll try to get some pictures up soon.
Bill C

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:40:40 -0000
From: "Donald Dickens"

Subject: A must see



If you haven't seen this you haven't seen 7+ Narrow Gauge http://members.home.net/melcaswell/index.htm
Caution: Lean back when viewing, drool damages keyboards
Don Dickens

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:57:26 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Re: Hello



All I got was a 404 also.

Sharon

Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 00:10:11 -0000
From: "Bill Oberpriller"

Subject: Roll Models 3 3/4" scale cylinders



Hi,
I'm new to this list. I just purchased a set of Roll Models/Wato 3 3/4" cylinders. I plan to build a freelance 2-4-0 using the Wato castings. I am going to document the process on a web site. I posted some pictures of the set-up I will be using to bore the cylinders. The pictures can be seen at http://minnie240.webjump.com
Bill

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:29:02 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Roll Models 3 3/4" scale cylinders



Bill,
In response to your open letter regarding building a free lance 2-4-0 with Keith Watson's castings ala Roll Models (new owner/distributer of Keith's designs). Why not just go ahead and build the 2-4-0 Lil Lima that Keith designed and which I believe will be released by Roll Models some time soon, like this summer.

It is an excellent working enging and very straight forward building. Having finished one, see attached photo, I would suggest go one bigger and build the Li'l Mogul 2-6-0 as designed by Keith and I suspect will also be available from Roll Models soon.

See the Lil Lima at Train Mountain this June and the grand IBLS meet at both Burnaby, CA and at Train Mountain in August.

Doug Wilkinson

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:17:54 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Roll Models 3 3/4" scale cylinders



Dear All:

Very good point . . . please check out Roll Models new web site. . . www.rmirailworks.com.
The 2-6-0 Mogul (Sweet Creek) is available now as well as the Stuart 2-4-4T. Coming soon are the Columbia 2-4-2 and the Frontier 2-4-2. For availability call Paul or William Garin . . . they are more than helpful!

5030 E. Jensen Ave.
Fresno, CA 93725
Phone: 559-441-8686
FAX: 559-441-0359

These locomotives are 3 3/4" scale. They are releasing 2 or 3 2.5" scale locomotives this summer. I am not sure what they are.

Curtis Hustace

Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:25:03 -0000
From: bearkatt@primenet.com

Subject: DRGW #50



Can anyone connect me with someone who has plans & parts for (or a completed model of)DRGW # 50? Im looking to build or buy one.

Many thanks in advance

Scotty L. Hill
Phoenix, Az

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 22:46:27 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: 15"



Can anyone complete these for me? Thx

Curtis


>HH&YV Hetch Hetchey and ..........Valley????????
>
>JT&S Joshua Tree and Southern
>
>GSP&P ....................?
>
>RVRy Redwood Valley Rwy
>
>H&W ....................?

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:41:03 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Re: Re: 15"



The HH&YV is the Hetch Hetchey and Yosemite Valley

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders.

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:55:20 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Let's try this again



HH & YV is Hetch Hetchy & Yosemite Valley. It was located near the famed Westside Lumber Company on Northern Calif.

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:09:38 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: 15"



>HH&YV Hetch Hetchey and ..........Valley???????? Yosemite
>
>JT&S Joshua Tree and Southern
>
>GSP&P ....................? Glenwood South Park and Pacific
>
>RVRy Redwood Valley Rwy
>
>H&W ....................? Hillcrest and Wahtoke


Jeff the guy who just got back from RMI today Badger

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:15:32 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: DRGW #50



Scotty, Paul Garrin at Roll Models now has the castings and plans for the Davenport #50. It has gone through a complete re-design and is far superior than the old Western Rails model. I have the first one that he has produced in Gas/Hydraulic and it is excellent! And much lower in cost than the Western Rails model also. See the RMI Railworks website for more details and e/mail addresses.
Tell them Jeff Badger sent you.

Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 05:18:28 -0000
From: "Chris Allan"

Subject: Re: Let's try this again



Actually the Hetch Hetchy and Yosemite Valleys Railway was the original common-carrier name for what later became the West Side Lumber Company in Tuolumne, California.

The current Hetch Hetchy and Yosemite Valleys Railway is a 5" scale 15" gauge operation on private ground near Sonora, California.
Sonora is about 7 miles from Tuolumne City.

That should help add to the confusion!
Chris Allan

Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 05:24:25 -0000
From: "Chris Allan"

Subject: Re: DRGW #50



Hey Jeff,

Get that thing out to Joshua Tree when Paul finishes it! We need some 2 1/2" stuff to put the rest of the place "in perspective"!
Chris

Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 05:27:57 -0000
From: "Jeff Badger"

Subject: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Hi all, just got back from RMI today, checking out the progress on the Davenport #50 being built. This is the first Gas/Hydraulic done at RMI and I must report that it is excellent. Smooth and powerful. Currently it has a 5.5hp Honda electric start with hydrostat and one hydraulic motor. The hydraulic system is run through a cooler and has a thermostatically controlled fan. So far am more than pleased with this and can hardly wait to get it out on the mainline!

Check out the Files section of 7+ for pics.

Next up... the Colombia!

Cheers,
Jeff Badger
Soquel Pacific Coast Railway

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:31:28 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Re: 15"



Curtis,

The HH&YV is actually Hetch Hetchey & Yosemite Valleys. (yes with an "s")

The GSP&P is Glenwood South Park & Pacific.

The H&W is Hillcrest & Wahtoke.

These are all private 15" gauge 5" scale railroads.

Regards,

Jim Hoback

______________________________
Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad
http://www.mlode.com/~jdmd/train.htm

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:36:35 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: DRGW #50



Hi Chris, well I was up at Paul's today testing the locomotive and it is a stump puller.
Just waiting for the hood sheet metal and the radiator grill to come back and then finish the powder coat. I will hopefully pick it up on April 21 so I can test it at the Portola Valley and Alpine. By the way, got your e/mail on the JT&S. Do you have a workday planned for May yet? That would work better for me actually...

Have a good one...
Jeff

Oh the Summer Camp is progressing through committees right now and made a huge hurdle last week. August 5 is the last committee and so far everything is a GO!

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:30:56 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Glenwood, South Park & Pacific



Where is the Glenwood, South Park & Pacific located at? The reason I ask is that for several years I've seen a Bed & Breakfast down at the Southern end of South Park (Colorado) and they appear to have a small railroad with it. Unfortunately I've never had the time to stop and check it out.

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 03:26:02 EDT
From: Smallhand@aol.com

Subject: Re: DRGW #50



Scotty,
Steve Easlon of "Western Rails Unlimited", 1507 Palo Alto Ave., Chino Hills, CA 91709. Has drawing, plans, parts and kit for the DRGW #50. If he's not reachable at this address, try to reach him through the "Orange County Model Engineers", PO box 3216, Costa Mesa, CA 92628. (www.livesteamclubs.com)

Raymond Hill

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:06:30 +0200
From: "Michael Staats"

Subject: Dutch website



Hello list,

Please pay a visit to the site of the largest steamgroup in the Netherlands on: www.welcome.to/stoomgroep and leave a message in the guestbook

michael staats
the Netherlands

Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:44:34 -0000
From: "Bill Oberpriller"

Subject: Re: Roll Models 3 3/4" scale cylinders



Doug,
I am unable to open the attachemt picture. I would like to see the picture, could you email a copy to me directly or post the picture to the file section?

My first choice was to build a L'il Lima. However, when I contacted Roll Models, they were unsure of if or when they would be making the L'il Lima castings available.

Bill

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:34:33 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Roll Models 3 3/4" scale cylinders



The Peach Bottom 3 ft gauge in Pennsylvania had a neat little 2-4-0. Plan profile drawing home in NY State.

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:41:09 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Glenwood, South Park & Pacific



Mark,

The GSP&P is a private 15" gauge line near Santa Cruz, CA, south of the S.F. Bay Area.

Regards,

Jim Hoback

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:52:35 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Glenwood, South Park & Pacific



Mark, The G.S.P.&P. is located in the Santa Cruz Mountians on a private ranch.
So you now need to get back to the B&B and scope out the railroad and tell us all about it!
Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:12:06 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Glenwood, South Park & Pacific



the B & B (not sure if the still do that) is on Trout Creek Pass (Hwy 285) east of Buena Vista Colorado. At one time they were going to be an amusement type park of old buildings and such. There is some track down but I don't believe they run any trains. Any Correction would be ok with me.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:30:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



This measage is for Jeff Badger. Jeff My name is Thom Cleesattel and last year I completed one of the Western Rails #50. The kit did take a bit of reworking to make it a lot better. Some of the supplied detail parts were lets say poor quaility. I worked off a LGB model and several prototype photos from when the D&RGW had it running, I believe back in the 50's or 60's. I'm having a real ball with this thing, however about that hydrollic drive you were talking about . Do ya think I could retro fit it to my loco and would Rolls sell just that portion of his kit. My loco ,like his is also powered with the 5 1/2 horse Honda engine. Any info would be greatly appreciated. There is a half way decent photo of my engine on the Fingerlakes Live steamers page. Search Fingerlakes livesteamer inc. and it should come up .Then go spring 99' photos. Nice jawin with ya .
Take care TC.

Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:40:52 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



REPLY TO THOM CLEESATTEL
Thom, I wrote an article that appeared in Modeltec, Jan 1998, on design of hydraulic drives for model locomotives. One of our members converted his Western Rails mechanically powered engines based on that. It was a tight squeeze, using a 6 HP Onan engine. If you're interested after looking at the article, my offer therein to help still stands.
Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:58:43 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: DRGW #50



REPLY
Hi Scotty:
One of our members (Kitsap Live Steamers, in WA.) converted his DRGW # 50, with me looking over his shoulder, about 18 months ago. He appeaars to be liquidating his models, presently has been advertising a paartially finished Little Engines Mogul. He may be interested in selling his #50. Be warned though, that it needs to haave either the hydraulic pump or the motor changed, because the engine he used turned about twice as fast as I calculated, thus delivering too much speed. See my article in Modeltec for Jan 1998. I'd be willing to hellp out with calculaations.
Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:53:32 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Modeltec



I just subscribed to Modeltec since I saw the current issue has an article on building a critter. Since this is where I'd like to start in 7.25" does anyone have any other issues of Modeltec I should try to lay my hands on? I'm in the research stage right now, I doubt I'll build before summer.

Thanks,

Stan

Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:07:37 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: DRGW # 50



To Scotty:
I got so carried away with my erudition that I forgot to name the member. He is Steve Conradi, at dubug@gte.net Tel: 425-259-3826.
Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:17:09 EDT
From: Mt14l@aol.com

Subject: Re: Modeltec



Stan;
Try Ebay - from time to time they have back issues of Modeltech and Live Steam for sale. www.ebay.com
plug in Modeltech or Live Steam in the Search!
Good Hunting!
Dave Sherron

Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:56:47 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: ebay



I have bought years worth of Live Steam and Modetec from ebay listings. I was looking for any particular issues to look at.

thanks,
stan

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:12:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Hi guys and maybe gals. Just a quickie. Does anyone out there know of a source for plans/ drawings for a narrow gauge Gramps tank car often seen on the D&RGW narrow gauge? This is the type of car where the tank sits on a flat car body. I'm figureing it should make a pretty comfortable riding car, with the tank acting like a saddle type seat and the flat car body is where you can place your feet. Tanx much.
Take care TC.

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 04:34:50 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: D&RGW Plans



One of the best sources for Colorado Narrow Gauge plans is the John Maxwell Collection. John Maxwell worked for the D&RGW and managed to save quite a few original plans as well as redraw many others over the years. He made cars, locomotives, buildings, track layouts diagrams and more. He made copies of those plans and photos available for quite a few years. John's son now sells them. Their address is:

The John Maxwell Collection
1055 Jessica Lane
Bldg. N
Fernley, NV 89408.

A basic drawing list is $2.00 by mail.

You can also find it at on the web at www.ColoNG.com

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 05:56:09 -0700
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



I don't have the plans you want...I'm looking for the plans to the tank cccccar that has the massive channel frame under it. The problem with all these NG tank cars is that in 2-1/2" scale, the tank is 15" dia. This I have found, though it is around $200 for a 6 foot piece. The clincher seems to be the domed ends for these tanks. If you come across these please let me know.

don orr
LOCOPARTS
http://home.att.net/~livesteam/Locoparts.html

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:05:08 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Articles found in Modeltec



I did a scan of the Modeltec issues I have and found the January 1998 issue, GREAT article on hydraulics. The august '96 issue has some points on rebuilding the drivetrain on a D&RGW #50. Finally the June '96 issue has a nice traction motor control schematic on page 35. I only have three years on file so far, I hope that helps someone.

Stan

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:44:41 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Tank Cars (was: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic)



Hi Don:

About 40 years ago, when I was in "Junior Achivement" in the Chicago suburbs, one of our advisers was Union Tank Car. In the process of learning to be business man, I conned them out of some 3' gauge tank car drawings. I couldn't identify the particular cars that the drawings represented, but at least one of them has a channel frame. IF I can find them, I'll see what I can figure out. It won't be soon, though, unless I run across them while we are cleaning out the house for new carpet. Rooting in boxes for train stuff won't go over very well while we are getting ready for our daughter's graduation :-)

When I worked at Sandley's, we used to have catalogs that had domed heads. They were a stock item at some of our steel suppliers, for pressure vessels, etc. We used pressed heads (flat ended) cut in half for the top part of our backheads. You weld them to a pan that has the edges curved at the same radius as the head, and "viola" a flanged sheet. It's more work than the minimum ASME requirements, but it's prettier.

Regards,

Mike Decker

Decker's Trains
Rt. 1, Box 102-E
Hot Springs, SD 57747
605-745-5487
http://www.gwtc.net/~mdecker/index.htm

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:27:14 -0700
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Tank Cars (was: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic)



Thanks for the info...will give that one a lot of thought.

don

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:11:22 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: trex



Does anyone have experience using trex or a similar plastic/wood product outdoors? I'm looking for a wood type product that doesn't warp and can stand the weather for train structures. Trex will not be used to carry the main load, it will simply be the piece exposed to the weather. I apologize to anyone that gets this more than once.

For anyone not familiar with trex, it is a product made from wood fibers and plastic. It is normally used for decking.

Thanks,
Stan

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:57:24 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Recycled Plastic / trex



Stan:

At Train Mountain we use a 2" x 3" x 8' recycled plastic material which we cut into 16" lengths for railroad ties on our 7 1/2" gauge railroad. It has been very satisfactory. The same material in different dimensions is often used for decking. The manufacturer claims the material has a 500 year life.

Quentin Breen
Train Mountain

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 23:53:57 -0000
From: "Bret Kueber"

Subject: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Hello,

I am new to your list, and looking at building a 2-1/2" or 3-3/4" Loco for my next project. I have completed 2 other 1-1/2" scale locomotives, a 2-4-2 and 0-4-0, and want something bigger. I was considering a 1-1/2" Berk, but the kit would be way more than a Wato Li'l Mogul or their Columbia. Besides, I like the idea of a larger scale engine with nuts and bolts you can see without a magnifying glass. Does anyone have any comments about going 2-1/2" vs 3-3/4"? I am assuming both would pull like nothing else in 1-1/2" except a Northern. How well does Wato's Li'l mogul pull? Or the Stuart which the Columbia will be based on? Has anyone seen RMI's castings or a completed engine of theirs? Will the Briggs boiler without the copper tube water walls be adequate?

Thanks,
Bret Kueber
P.D.C.R.R.

Be sure to visit Our Website!
http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/pdcrr

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:42:15 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Being a great advocate of two foot gauge, translated into 3.6" or 3.75"scale let me put in my two cents worth in answer to your request. Modelling in this not quite lunitic large scale will be a challange. Se if you can beg, borrow or otherwise acquire Don Young's series in Live Steam several years ago on "#7 and her Sisters" bringing to life my all time favorite engine - a favorite as I worked on getting her running for the last time on the Bridgton and Harrison down Maine the last years 1941 (or was it 1942) Beautifully proportioned 2-4-4T Baldwin Forney. Got a start on her (in 3.6"as we run the proper 7.25" gauge track at Adirondack LS and it's handy to convert any dimension by multiplying by 0.3) Made a start with Don Marshall but he up and left us right after we had made the big decision to "Masonize" her i.e. Pivot the engine under the boiler. All these late model Forneys were really long leggeded beasties. I had coresponded with the chap out in Oregon (sorry, I'm fileless in Florida and can't recall his name) who had built Sandy River #6 (0-4-4T) and after wearing off two sets of flanges (and assuming a good deal of the railroad) he came up with the Masonizing solution. This worked,

A chap (again memory fails) built the Young Maxi-#7 up in Toronto, Ontario, Sent me a video of this glorious machine that, from hearsay evbidence can like a dream on good, straight track but was hell on the curves.

memry still fails in recalling the name of a most helpful chap in South Africa who sent me a video of his (altered) Maxi #7.I willingly grant the Old Country types and their decendants their penchant for bright livery (Remember Henry Ford: You can buy a Model T in any color you want as long as it's black) and even the brass steam domes. This engine solved the long legged curvature problem by being built as a 2-4-0 with the tank being turned into a little four wheel bobber tender.

No surprise that there is a good deal of scale fudging that goes on when you start in at the larger scales. The Fitchburg Northern Moguls, albeit a generic 3 fter. slill comes off as about 2,2" even for a teeny-tiny Mogul. More forgetfulness on my part obliterates the name of the chap in Pa. (or is it NJ) Steamers with a dandy DSP&P Mason Bogie that would hold it's own against one of Mr. Ulrich's - save that the scale I think hovers a bit under 3.0 to the foot.

Russ Steeves of Waushakum and Fitchburg #5 fame is working on a wondrous Model of one of an early Sandy River (or maybe it was a Phillips & Rangely) Portland Forney again fudging down on the scale a tad. All this solves the curving problem (especially with no lead truck) and practival clearance problems on the everyday 7 1/4 or 7 1/2" gauge club layout.You go for the look -big cab and pilot beam, oversized attachments in comparison with the 1.5" midels in competition for th oohs and aaahs. Go for the look and forget about the purists. Cheat on the scale if you have to. If you say it's a model opf a Monson or Kennebec Central engine. that's good enough for me. As long as it runs decently.

And even with small prototype you are getting into questions of watching the weight and axle loading.weight. What wpuld have been #7's boiler sits in my garage and it is a real hernia builder. It'll never be #7's boiler as Don, working a cappela without a good drawing, put the front flue sheet right where the exhaust pipe(s) should be. Maybe the LR&HS/W&Q/F&M mogul as I have fantisized on these pages earlier.

I quit for now. I'm supposed to be cleaning the back porch for tomorrow's company.

Cam Brown

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:35:13 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Cam Brown wrote a good summary of how I feel also. Do what pleases you and just call it a caricature. I finished a Lil Lima a couple of years ago and used oversize rivets in the tender, made the tender wide enough to fit my tender bottom, extended the height of the cab so I could use a six inch pressure gauge from a W.W.II Navy ship and other features I liked. Just go for it and enjoy your work and just say thank you to the rivet counters and let those who do nothing but criticize, go on their merry way.

Regarding the Lucky 7. I completed a Mini Lucky 7 and just found it too small. I did not realize that a two foot locomotive was so small and in 1 1/2" scale it is small also. Don Young's design was flawless and it runs unbelievably smooth but the light weight of the locomotive just doesn't run well on our local track which has 2+ percent grades on it. The tender capacity is too small and I had to carry a jug of water in my lap to supplement the tender. Our track is 4,000 plus feet long. Cam is correct in indicating that Maxi-Lucky 7 is just too big and long without separating the tender from the cab. Something in between would in my mind be just right. Getting castings for such a mid size Lucky 7 would be a personal thing with your own patterns if you are able. The detailing in the Lucky 7 series is very detailed and the work to build is great but if you have the patience it is a very fine locomotive.

Doug Wilkinson

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 20:32:22 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Bret,

I can't speak to the quality of the steamers of RMI as my only exposure to RMI has been their electrics, but let me say that there quality of workmanship and finish is terrific. Of the things I have seen produced by RMI it appears it is a company with a lot of pride in their product and the skills to back it up.

russ@hobby-tronics.com
www.hobby-tronics.com

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 00:12:10 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Are there any commercial air compressor tanks that can be modified? Cut the ends off and reverse/reweld?
Rich D.

Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:28:08 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Don, dome tank ends are being made by Real Trains in Yuciapa, California.
Not sure if they have posted them on their website as of yet, but I saw the product last November at their shop and they are nice pieces. Real Trains

Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 01:52:34 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Does anyone have any comments about going 2-1/2" vs 3-3/4"?

If you can go with the 3 3/4"

How well does Wato's Li'l mogul pull? Or the Stuart which the Columbia will be based on?

Considering that Wato engines are used in many tourist and Park type train rides in Austrailia and other countries hauling up to 60 passengers with grades up to 5% is a pretty good testimony to their capacity.

Has anyone seen RMI's castings or a completed engine of theirs?

I have seen the both Wato and RMI castings. The Wato casting are good, the RMI castings are better. RMI has two locomotive under construction right now: a Sweet Creek Mogul, and a Stuart Forney that will become Sandy River #10. Both engines are running on air (see attached photo taken last week) and are well built. RMI has a staff of 10 workers, and David Rohrer is a fellow live steamer who is working the steam line of RMI.

Will the Briggs boiler without the copper tube water walls be adequate?

The simplicity of the Briggs design makes the boiler easy to fire and maintain steam pressure, and maintenance is much less. I also believe that this typ of boiler will last longer with proper care given to treatment of water etc.

Any more questions, contact Paul Garin at RMI Railworks and tell him I sent ya!

Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:13:10 -0700
From: "Dennis & Marie Weaver"

Subject: RE: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



The Gramps tank cars that TC referred to were frameless cars owned by UTLX and leased to Lafayette "Gramps" Hughes who owned a small refinery at Alamosa. The story goes that he had the "Gramps" painted on the side of the cars so that his grandchildren would know which cars belonged to Gramps.

You can find information and some drawings of these cars and the other types of tank cars used on the D&RGW in the July/August 1978 and September/October 1978 issues of the Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette and also in the Narrow Gauge Pictorial Vol. 7 by R. Robb.

Dennis Weaver

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 03:23:02 -0700
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Thanks for the source. Just checked it out ... they list up to 14" but state they will quote on larger ones so maybe the search is not too far away.

don orr
LOCOPARTS
http://home.att.net/~livesteam/Locoparts.html

Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:20:43 EDT
From: Mt14l@aol.com

Subject: Re: Recycled Plastic / trex



Do you know of a source for this material?
Dave Sherron, Scarborough, ME.

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:37:33 -0000
From: "Bill Oberpriller"

Subject: Re: Roll Models 3 3/4" scale cylinders



I just added some more pictures to my web site.
http://minnie240.webjump.com

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:49:48 -0000
From: "Bill Oberpriller"

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Bret,
If you are looking for a bigger engine than your Minnie, you will have to go to the 3 3/4" scale. The Lil Lima is about the same size as your Minnie. I bought the cylinder and wheel castings in 3 3/4" scale from RMI. The size of these castings are over whelming. To build an engine this size, I recommend a 14" lathe and a Series I size milling machine. There is a lot of welding on this engine. I recommend that you get a small TIG welder. I have one similar to the one being sold by Grizzly for $1199. It works great.
Bill

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:02:36 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Dear Bret:

Roll Models www.rmirailworks.com is going to be producing their whole 3.75" scale line in 2.5 " scale as well. It won't be until after August, but they say all the bigger trains will be also available in 2.5" scale. That is for a what it's worth kind of thing. Check with William or Paul Garrin on availability. But at least this will give you a choice if you decide not to go to 3.75" you still have all the loco's in 2.5" scale. The castings look fantastic by the way.

Take care

Curtis

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:25:47 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Recycled Plastic / trex



www.trex.com has a page to find their closest dealer to you.

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:36:05 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Lucky 7



I have been reading the posts about Lucky 7 with great interest. Two footers are my prototype of choice right now. I have almost a complete set of the Live Steam articles about Lucky 7, I'm missing 2 or three in the middle. Forneys are notoriously hard to run around smaller radius track. Some of the guys in smaller scales have "played" with the tender truck. Instead of it pivoting in a fixed position it has some side to side play.

There is a formula to figure out the minimum radius for a Forney that may help before anyone decides to build 7. I am actually thinking about building one of the smaller Forneys run by B&B and later Sandy River. My interest in 7 is primarily to get up to speed on Forney design since there are no good plans for a Hinkley Forney.

Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:16:58 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



In the April 1994 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, there was an excellant 6 page article and plans for a Pacific Coast Railway 3 foot gauge flat car with an oil tank mounted on it that might fit your needs. It is a wooden flat car with truss rods and arch bar trucks dating from the first decade of the 20th century. It certainly looks homemade enough to fit in on any narrow gauge railroad. The tank is a single dome riveted steel model. If you don't have access to the issue, let me know and I can Xerox and snail mail it to you. You might inquire at propane gas distributors for fixed tanks that haven't passed hydrostatic test. Two of them, each with an end cut off and welded together might make a suitable tank if you're not a rivet counter.

Tom Keenan

Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:57:17 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Tom,

Whatever it is you sent it came through in binary and can't be read.

Sharon

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:33:21 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Tank Cars (was: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/H ydraulic)



Regarding GRAMPS tanks, I believe they were all of the frameless variety. The tank was directly mounted to a large bolster casting at each end. Although quite sturdy prototypically, I'm not sure the delicate running boards on a 2 1/2" model would 'stand up' to feet. A much better choice would be the so called wide frame tank. I believe a lot of the CONOCO tanks were wide frame....it's been a while since I checked, but I think this is so. (Don't quote that as fact until I check!) I don't recall who on the list had the original question, but if you email me with your address I'll send copies of what I have.
Don

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:20:01 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Lucky 7



Hi Stan:

There is a good drawing of "Puck" & "Ariel" by Henry Crittenden in "The Maine Two-Footers" by Moody. It should be in the new edition too. I sure the builder's drawings were in one of the late 1800's predecessors to the "Locomotive Cyclopedia", I've seen them somewhere. Crittenden did a lot of 2' drawings, maybe Underground Press or one of the other print outfits has the original 3/8" scale drawings.

Mike Decker

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:44:14 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hello & Trying to decide Between 2-1/2" & 3-3/4"



Aside from all the typos where fat fingers find the wrong keys, be advised that i said the wrong thing in saying that that Pa. or NJ Mason Bogie was built on a cheat scale of 3"/'. Wrong!It is a a cheat up from 2"/'. Also, I cannot resist telling a story on the builder of this fine machine whose name is inscribed somewhere in my files up north. I recognized it as middle European origan. which said builder claimed was the trouble when he made all those dumb mistakes. After the reshuffling of nation bounderies, his home turf ended up in another nation which resulted in him getting much smarter. Instantly.

Oh yes, another source that might get smoked out. Languishing in the basement ane a set of four driving wheel centers which are dead on (well, no. They are a tad small for 30/32" dia. 2 ft. Forney in 3.5/3.75" scale (the scheme was to shrink on steel tires) but they have the correct number of spokes and have square counterweights.Again memory fails but these came from ? ? from Illinois Live Steamers who had a Live Steam article on building a model of the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch 15" ga. engine in Kent.

Thought of something else. You put steel tires on these centers, or pound sand and make new castings, in 3.6/3.75" scale you have a wheel that is going to be 1.5"+in real life. These are going to like wearing a set of snowshoes and a 7 1/4" engine is not going to fall through the cracks on 7 1/2". OK,OK guys we know the problems with guarded and/or tight frog flangeways. AND (still more!) the 2 ft. Moguls and Praires had blind center drivers which help these heavier engines corner better than the big Forneys. AND remenber the first Hinkleys made for the Bedford and Bellrica had blind rear drivers as these little babies were born to run tender first, like a little American gone wrong

In a earlier book on the two footers, I think it was "Ride the Sandy River" there are beautiful reproductions of the dry point pen sketches of these engines. Somewhere in my horde are photocopies of similar dry pen etchings of the freight and passenger cars and track details all from a 18something issue of Poor's illustratig this first American 2 fter. The B & B had the most marvelous herald entwining these letters.If we only knew the colors.

While I'm at it in playing locomotive trivia, if one wants to go hog while in the larger scale, in an earlies issue of the "Locomotives that Baldwin Built" these are a couple of pictures of a 2 ft. Mike built for a steel mill in India. Another long leggeded beastie. And wasn't ther a brace of 2 ft. Decapods made for a Chinese coal hauler way down south (in China south. Haven't heard anything of these for a while.

Cam Brown

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:31:52 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Fw: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



I'm going to try reposting this message since I heard it came out as a 3 letter message.

In the April 1994 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman, there was an excellant 6 page article and plans for a Pacific Coast Railway 3 foot gauge flat car with an oil tank mounted on it that might fit your needs. It is a wooden flat car with truss rods and arch bar trucks dating from the first decade of the 20th century. It certainly looks homemade enough to fit in on any narrow gauge railroad. The tank is a single dome riveted steel model. If you don't have access to the issue, let me know and I can Xerox and snail mail it to you. You might inquire at propane gas distributors for fixed tanks that haven't passed hydrostatic test. Two of them, each with an end cut off and welded together might make a suitable tank if you're not a rivet counter.

Tom Keenan

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:52:02 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Okay, how come all I get is little squares?

Sharon

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:43:31 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Borrowing from Dick Andrews, may his name endure, more here from the 2 ft. follies promoting Extra Narrow Gauge..

Here and there in the literature will be found photos and plans of the Bridgton and Saco River (later B&Harrison and Edaville) two foot gauge tank cars the two and only in this prototype. These sre old Socony (Standard Oil of New York) Tanks mounted on flats, strapped down on (sand filled?) curbs on the wooden cars. In the larger scale these cars are (yes - one is in the basement on sawhorses) over 20" wide. Icheated on the length a bit. Do not put a plywood underlawment under the deck as this interferes with attaching the U-bolts holding on the (Dave Rohmer?) stake pockets.I was on the verge of lequisitioning a hunk of 15" dia. FGR water main pipe from a local supply yard for the tank when my back went out putting in the pockets. Lesson here: Higher sawhorses. For the domed ends Iwas going to make domed hardwood plugs; 'spose you could cement in a FGR circle behind each plug so you might get some use out of the beast as a non or low pressure water car.

Dave's couplers emphasise the scale difference. Even 3/4 size they bulk up over the standard 1 1/2" units. All 2 ft. couplers had slotted knuckles so something can be rigged to couple up to those itty bitty 1 1/2"ocos.

Last for now: Regarding DRG&W # 50 et al critters. Not holding a mono[poly on the thought, consider another valid prototype this being Wiscasset and Quebec (or Wiscasst, Waterville and Farmington) #52, a Plymouth refuge from a Pennsylvania steel mill nicely fixed up in Brewster Green with yellow safety paint and stripping. Get on the WW&F website to see her and other great pix of this great resurection of a part of narrow gauge history.

cam Brown

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:27:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Re: Fw: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Mornin all, Cam if yur out there, how do I get to that ww&f web site? gotta see those photos. I do have a # 50 D&RGW in 2 1/2 scale . I was also kicking around the idea of building a tank car {mounted on a flat car type} for a riding car . Tanx for the info.
Take care TC.

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:20:25 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Tanks



While having my heating system upgraded my plumber replaced my old expansion tank so I kept it. It's 12" in diameter and 4' long, not big enough for a Socony tank but may be useful for smaller scale cars. In short, find your plumber ask him to save any discarded tanks for you. Good, cheap, strong.

The plans for the Socony car were recently published in Finescale Railroad Modeler Aug/Sept and Oct/Nov issues of 1999. You'll need to scale them up since it was a 7/8ths scale model. Finescale publishes its magazine in print and on the internet, oh, the internet verion is FREE! They don't publish old issue on the net so you'll have to call Russ for the issue listed above. Here is their url:
http://www.finescalerr.com

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:08:39 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Reply to TK Tom: I am sednding this as a reply to see if it gets to you as I see it - kinda weird. In case your computer decodes it properly - as I look at your message, all I see is mostly letter size rectangles with a few other symbols scattered between. Do you have any clue to the problem? I received your first letter and your reply clearly. Howard Springer PS When I tried to send this, I was asked if I wished to send it as "unicode." Also, mention was made of a character set other than the default set. If allowed, I'll send it as unicode.

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:03:49 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Sound Engineering



Has anyone done work on making little gas engines sound more like BIG engines? I would think that a well engineered sound chamber/muffler could be used to eliminate the higher frequency sounds while allowing the lower frequency ones through. This would evolve finding the proper sized chamber for a given engine displacement. I'm no acoustic engineer so I have no idea what calculations would be required.

There is a manufacturer of small scale gear that makes a claim to have enhanced the sound of R/C type motors.

http://cgibin.erols.com/diesel

Any ideas?

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:01:56 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Sound Engineering



Small sound made bigger?????? Gee, I thought the 'little' sound was big enough. At times our woods are filled with the 'little' sounds.
Don

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:05:16 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Sound re-Engineering



Maybe I should rephrase the question. What I'm looking for is not more sound, it's a more realistic sound.

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:35:46 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Wiscasset, Waterville & Farminton web site:http://lincoln.midcoast.com. All sorts of neat stuff here. Call up pix of Monson #3 at 1998 annual picnic. Overendowedweightwise conductor on flat c'est moi. Look for the suspenders.

Several good shots of #52 here. For those ignorant of Maine, the white stuff you see is snow.

While surfing, call up the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Light Railway Ltd. and all the derivitive ng sites. But only if you do not have anything important to do for the next couple of hours.

Cam

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:41:29 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Sound Engineering



Hey Don! Didn't our Beloved Sec'ty Bruce Rauch at Adirondack LS do something with the muffler or reverb chamber on his NYC diesel to have it sound less like a lawnmower?

BPP (Beloved Past Prez) Cam Brown

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:54:39 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Sound Engineering



Nope...that's why our quiet woods sound like a golf course at grass cutting time....and during meets. I think all he did was add more insulation to keep the interior cooler.

So when can we expect the snowbirds to migrate back to the northerly roost? Nice to hear from you the past several days. BTW Cam, you don't have to bother adding your name to the bottom, the prose makes it very obvious who the author is!
Don

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:55:39 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Sound re-Engineering



Bernie Grow of the Montreal Live Steamers built a battery powered Diesel switcher and the put in a sound system!

Ask him on the livesteamers list.

Cheers,
Arno

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:03:25 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Designing for sound: consider the source...



ARN0 & friends -

Storage batterey powered electric drive locomotive with sound systems are great, but of course have the obvious limitations. If you want internal combustion power and it's attendant run time, then you are going to run up against the simple fact that there is only so much you can do with mufflers, baffles and reverberation chambers if your source is a always going to go "putt-putt-putt" as "one lungers" are prone to do.

All one has to do is read Cam Brown's stuff to see how they do go on and on! Does anyone besides Cam and I still remember the "Cement Mixer" song? (I'm a lot younger than he is!)

Many of the better manufacturers are equipping their models with the B&S "Vanguard" 16HP 2 cylinder engine. It is very compact and will fit just about anywhere the larger single cylinder engines will fit. Yes, it may well be "overkill" in the HP department for most 1.5" scale applications, but therein lies part of the solution.

How often do you hear a full size prototype IC powered locomotive operating at full out maximum throttle? Yet that is the way a lot of our models are operated. If you have more power than you normally need, then your prime mover is going to lope along just like the big guys do most of the time.

Now throw in the extra cylinder and all of a sudden voila! - no more "putt-putt-putt", but the better sounding rumble of two exhausts going in and out of sync (particularly with a good muffler and reverb chamber attached).

Cost is another matter. Are you willing to spend almost 2x as much for electric start and two cylinders. The solution is there, but it is costly!

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:10:32 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



What is this?

Sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Springer
To: 7-plus-NGM@egroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [7-plus-NGM] Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic

㰊牨à㰊ââ敢楧â慢湮牥 µ'â²㘴 ²㩤" 㐱âµâà㰊â慴²'â 扟慬歮â牨晥â'灴â振楬正"牧畯獰挮µ"㈯³ââµââ

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:15:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



Dear Sharon something is goin kafluie with your message. All's that appears is yp<. Wus up with that?
TC.

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:38:59 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Designing for sound: consider the source...



"Cement Mixer - Putzie - Putzie"The revered Don Marshall pegged me best:
"Cam, you write the same as you talk!" Curse or blessing?

At Largo Central, Angie oure Sec'ty, has an "Irish Mail" pump car that kids of all ages take out for exercise after the day's run. You have the choice of silence(seldom chosen) steam or diesel. Which reminds me, as always happens, of another story, west coast style of the fellow who had one of the first Dodge minivans painted in SP Daylight livery and equipped with a full sound system offering slow or fast, diesal or steam, freight or passenger sounds. Story I heard had him offering photo runbys in supermarket parking lots.

Cam B

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:28:31 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Designing for sound: consider the source...



Well Rudy,

I'm in live steam. I gave Bernie 'ell when I saw him use that sound system at the 1999 Adirondack Spring meet. Bad enought he built a 'Diesel' but at least it did not make a racket. Then he had to put in a sound system ... !!!

I'll make exceptions in my mind if you build the oil burner yourself. Edgar T. Westbury had a lot of IC building articles in the '50ies in Model Engineer.

My C$ 0.02 (U$ 0.013)
Arno

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:28:18 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Live Deisel



Here's an off the wall question: Is anyone using a deisel engine in their deisel engine? (I work in the department of redundancy department.) I noticed that Northern sells small deisels, 4.6 to 8.5 HP.

How about, a two stroke engine? Talk about a wierd sound, that would be interesting.

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:58:25 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: New To List



Just Joined, what looks like a fairly new list.

My interest is 3 3/4" Scale Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes. Current projects are #10 & #24 which are being built simultaneously to take advantage of duplicate parts.

I'm using Power Models and Mercer castings... the Power Model castings being far superior.

I'm a life member at WW&F museum, and will be there for the track laying weekend in May.

I also volunteer 1 or 2 weeks a year at the Puffing Billy Railway in Belgrave, Australia in their workshop. www.pbr.com.au

The NA 2-6-2 tank locos are of special interest as they are Baldwin "knock-offs" from the Newport Works, and even though they are 2' 6" gauge many parts would be interchangeable with SR&RL engines. Original 1 & 2 were Baldwins, 3 & 4 were built in Australia from Baldwin parts, 5 through 14 were entirely Newport products. #3 still exists, but is awaiting rebuilding.

One of the Puffing Billy machinists, Alan Gardiner, has an SR&RL #10 in 3 3/4" Scale that is 80% complete, and most of the shop paid staff are live steamers.

Linc Reed-Nickerson
Camas, Washington USA

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:25:34 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Live Deisel



Stan:

We are in the process of installing a Kuboda 34 HP diesel engine in a 1.6" scale 7 1/2" gauge Backyard Rail F-7 A unit. Two F-7 B units have a water tank and hydraulic oil tank, respectively. The second F-7 A unit has the gas tank. We will not be able to finish this A-B-B-A lash up until after the IBLS meet this August. The diesel sounds just like a diesel. Come and see it the summer of 2001. We think that the engine consist will pull 100 cars.

Quentin
Train Mountain

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:39:20 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Test of new RMI Railworks Gas/Hydraulic



All I am getting is little squares. All the rest of my 200 + pieces of mail come through okay

Sharon

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:42:49 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Designing for sound: consider the source...



Cam B,

That same gentleman also has a second mini-van painted SP 'black widow' and both vehicles in addition to the sound system also has a full blown nathan that is REALLY LOUD! :o)

russ@hobby-tronics.com
www.hobby-tronics.com

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:45:30 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Live Deisel



Stan,
I think one of the folks at Redwood Valley has a speeder with a two stroke in it soooooo, it really does sound like a speeder.

russ@hobby-tronics.com
www.hobby-tronics.com

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:48:20 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: New To List



Linc,

Tried your web address for Puffing Billy and got a mnaufacturer.

russ@hobby-tronics.com
www.hobby-tronics.com

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:55:06 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: New To List



Linc,

Found it, it is www.pbr.org.au

Great site thanks for the reference.
russ@hobby-tronics.com
www.hobby-tronics.com

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:47:47 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: 1.5"scale 4.75" gauge help needed...



Can any of you help this guy?

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 8:05 -0500
From: "KEITH BLANCHARD"
To: "dmmcomo@socal.rr.com"
Subject: K-27 parts

Hi there,

Would you please e-mail any parts list you have for D&RGW 1-1/2" scale narrow gauge cars and locos. Also do you have available parts or kit or can be built K-27? I am planning a RR, but the K-27 is my favorate loco. If not, who would you suggest?

Thanks, Keith


Hi Keith -

Thanks for writing. Unfortunately Como Roundhouse Products only sells parts for 2-1/2" scale, 7-1/2" gauge and larger, no 1-1/2" scale 4-3/4" gauge items. The only one I know of selling in this scale is Warren Weston and I don't know if he is on the Web or not. A fellow by the name of Bob Crone models in that scale and does beautiful work, but I don't think he sells anything. I will forward your request to him in the event he might be willing to share with you.

I am copying your request and this reply to the 7+NGM group with a request that anyone in that bunch write to you directly if they have any info, and I will file any replies that you receive for future reference should the request come up again.

I used to model in 1.5"/4.75" before I got started in the larger scale and it was a neat scale; I've always sort of regretted not sticking with it. One of my "partners in crime" was building a K-28 using a set of Little Engines' cylinders but he never got past the frame/drivers/cylinders/counterbalances and rods before we switched scales.

Good luck!
--
Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products
dmmcomo@socal.rr.com
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:06:46 -0000
From: keith_blanchard@fmc.com
Subject: New To List

Hi gang,

I am new to the list, Keith Blanchard, Fresno, CA. I have been modeling for about 40 years in many small scales and prototypes. I thought it was time to build a real railroad, Live Steam. I would like to use may favorite railroad and locomotive, D&RGW K-27. Being a newby to this large scale, just getting started, I am at the mercy of the group to lead me to the best scale and parts to use. By checking what is going on, I suspect that 7-1/2" gauge would be about 2-1/2 scale in narrow gauge? I will be using only about 20 acres for the RR. Here near Fresno, we have alot of very flat, cheap land. I would like to build the locomotive myself. Hopefuly the parts are available. I believe it is the best way to become familuar with the working parts. This should not be a problem, I have been a mechanic for years and have a machine shop at my disposal. With all of these ducks (mudhens) now in a row, the time is right to do the job. I am looking forward to chating with you all. From the archives, it looks like alot of nice people are on the list.

Cheers, Keith

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:02:54 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: New To List



WW&F LM#151 here collecting good reasons to get to Sheepscot late May. We'll meet, perchance.

My meanderings in the paper industry never took to Camas. Does (did) the stiny ol' mill keep you alive?
Cam B

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:56:47 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Live Deisel



i before e except after c.

Again poor memory but a couple of years ago a chap (from MI?) showed at the Largo Feb, meet with a true diesel. Santa Fe war bonnet suit.Pulled everything that could be hung on her. Marvelous sound - I should say aura. You knew with all your senses, hearing included, that that was an engine.

Two cylinder jobs showing up both at FL and NY tracks i frequent. Good pullers but can't recall the decibels they put out.

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:19:29 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: New To List



Hi Keith, I don't believe there is a kit for a K-27 available yet. 2 1/2" scale is correct for 7 1/2" gauge. You will hopefully get many suggestions on what you can use to build that engine.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 13:38 -0500
From: "KEITH BLANCHARD"

Subject: K-27 in 2-1/2"



Hi gang,

With the scale at 2-1/2", what would be the proper gauge for narrow gauge?
7-1/2" or 7-1/4"? Just starting to gather notes to build a K-27. Wow, no kit available. If I can just get past the boiler, drivers and cylinders, the rest should be generic, or machine work. I wonder if Tom Miller's K-36 pump could be used when he has them available. Hey Tom, What minimum radius does the K-36 feel at ease with? Did you use the dreaded blind drivers? It would be just my luck to decide to build a K-36 also. But first, I will eat the K-27 elephant one bite at a time. I also would like to say Thank You to Rudy of Como Roundhouse for leading me to this thread.

Cheers, Keith
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:04:01 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"
Subject: RE: Puffing Billy address

Sorry, it is .org, should have checked it before sending!

http://www.pbr.org.au

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 01:27:10 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Check this out...



For Keith and the newbies, this is what is happening in 7+ gauge so check out the link and you won't be dissapointed...

Jeff Badger

http://www.steam-locomotive.com/almccuex.html

Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:05:17 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: K-27 in 2-1/2"



Keith:

Living in Fresno, you should know that 7 1/2" gauge track is used everywhere in the United States except for parts of New England, where you will find 7 1/4" gauge. If you want to be able to operate your engine on other tracks or have visiting engines, you will want to build your track to 7 1/2" gauge. Of course, nobody actually builds 7 1/2" gauge track See the entry on "Track Gauge" in the attached.

You should check out Roll Models, Inc., located in Fresno, which has a number of narrow gauge items that might be of interest.

Quentin

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 05:31:21 +1200
From: "Hansen-Hill"

Subject: plastic/wood ties



http://www.r-tie.com./index.html

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:05:22 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: K-27 in 2-1/2"



Just a quick adjustment to Quentin's good advice.
The 7 1/4" gauge territory is a bit more than parts of New England. New England is typically referred to as the area including Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island. It should be noted that in addition to all of New England,the land of 7 1/4" also includes all of New York, New Jersey, and most of Pennsylvania (if not all). Also, we can not forget our Canadian Friends who also enjoy 7 1/4", at least in the eastern half of Ontario, all of Quebec, New Foundland and the Maritime Provinces too.

I hope this is not redundant to a posting I haven't viewed yet. Sorry if it is.

Come see us sometime!
Don

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:44:17 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: K-27 in 2-1/2"



Could you tell an ignorant Canuck when NJ and PA joined New England?
;->)
Arno

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:40:59 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: K-27 in 2-1/2"



Kieth - 7 1/4" is in a much larger area than just New England. Try multiplying 4' 81/2" by 1 1/2" per foot and tell me what you get. Somewhere in the past either a) they coulnd't do math or b) they were modelling 5' gauge thinking that would be the world standard someday.

Sometime there will be a compromise. The Zizzinati Zinder Zniffers accomodate equipment built for both gauges. I've memtioned before that Don Marshall fudged things here and there so an engine would be bipolar, biguage, whatever. Sticky points are guarded frogs, which one does not see very often and narrow wheel treads. And someone made a snide remark about blind drivers. The big NG boys did it so what's wrong with doing it on a model? Think of the tire width at the same time.

CB

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 06:44:01 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: New To List



Hi Keith: Welcome
I don't know all of the suppliers for 2-1/2" scale Colorado RR type locomotives. Tom Miller is about to have one, also contact Como Roundhouse Products, who is representing Conway Locomotive. Como is Rudy van Wingen, member of this group.
Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:15:23 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: K-27 in 2-1/2"



Good Morning Cam,
How are things in Sunny Florida. I drove out to ALS last night to drop off a pair of trucks, had to clear the road of fallen limbs from Sunday's snow (concrete)storm. Us cold blooded northern types are enjoying the fact that it only freezes at night now. Since we need to expend a bit more of our energy to staying warm, help is sometimes needed for the more in depth cranial persuits such as understanding certain prose.

One area that I really need some help with this morning is in regard to your entire first paragraph below? I haven't got the foggiest idea as to what you are talking about. It's been a while since I brushed up on the CB Interpretation Theorum and I'm a bit rusty. Hope to once again have it completely understood before your return to the north. Will that be soon, I hope? I may need a tutor.

Having fun, Don

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:16:22 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Who's on first?



I prefer not to slam eith 7.25" or 7.5" gauges. I will be building in 7.25" since I live in the small area (LOL) where it's used. I did the math on some popular scale/gauge combinations. 7.5" is actually easier to model in for simple math. See chart below:
guagetrack scale
24.0007.250 3.625
30.0007.250 2.900
36.0007.250 2.417
56.5007.250 1.540
24.000 7.500 3.750
30.000 7.500 3.000
36.000 7.500 2.500
56.500 7.500 1.593


It's amazing how many comments can be made over 1/4"!

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:53:30 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: K-27 in 2-1/2"



This past weekend I went to the Iron Acres Gold Spike Ceremony http://ironacresrailroad.homestead.com/ and their track will accommodate both 7 1/4" and 7 1/2" gauge cars and loco's. The track was very accuratly layed especially in the areas of switches.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 8:35 -0500
From: "KEITH BLANCHARD"

Subject: K-27 Thanks



Thank all of you for the great info. I will pay RMI here in Fresno a visit. Maybe they can help with the side frames. I work at FMC in Madera, just north ofFresno. We have a plasma cutter which might work for making the side frames and any other thick plate parts, if I can make the drawings on CAD. One of my friends that also works here is a CAD drafter. I just need to figure out how thick the material should be. I suspect this would be an area that might be a little thicker than scale, just for good measure and safety. The springs should be available somewhere, I hope.

I hope I am not making a mistake, using this large scale, 2-1/2". Some have mentioned regretting leaving 1-1/2" scale. That scale might be a little tipsy in narrow gauge, 4-3/4"? I want the track to remain 7-1/2" so other steamers (visiters) can run their 1-1/2" scale standard gauge if they want. But the structures and other details will remain 2-1/2" D&RGW. I just gotta model narrow gauge. The trips to Chama are getting costly.

From your links I see that there are alot of nice locomotives out there. Bruce's latest is great. I have a weakness for the old time stuff. Looks like I opened a can of worms with the 1/4" difference in track gauge. I had read that there were both gauges here in the U.S. It seems to be manily in the East Coast area. I guess that shows how much of a newbe I am. It has been a long time since I visited any live steam event. I couldn't remember the details. I never thought that I would seriously be building in that scale. Now with the land at my disposal and machine shop, I will regret it if I don't take advantage of the moment.

Thanks again, Keith

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:46:20 -0000
From: "Donald Dickens"

Subject: Tables worth saving



Stan,
I entered your tables into the database section of the list as an experiment in using them to save "good stuff". If you object I'll delete. Please forgiver the presumption. Don Dickens

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:06:10 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Tables worth saving



Oh my god NO! Just kidding, I don't send anything to egroups that can't be shared. Just send me my split on the royalties when the checks start rolling in.

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:55:06 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Re: Who's on first?



Comparing 7 1/2" purists versus 7 1/4" purists seems like a lot of controversy over nothing when the correct gauge for 1 1/2" scale is 7 1/16". Try dividing 56.5" by 8.

Tom Keenan

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:39:24 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Don:

Thank you for casting light on my ignorance of the true extent of 7 1/4" gauge railroading in North America. Oregon is far removed from the Northeastern part of North America; it is hard to comprehend I have not seen. The "Gauge (7 1/2"/7 1/4")" entry in Train Mountain Encyclopedia has been rewritten based on your contribution, and is attached for your further review.

Does anyone know the actual story (names, dates, places) of how 7 1/4" gauge was misunderstood as 7 1/2" gauge when a new track was being constructed?

Once IBLS 2000 is over with, I look forward to the opportunity to visit the 7 1/4" tracks in northeastern North America.

Thanks Again,

Quentin

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 07:12:33 EDT
From: Mt14l@aol.com

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Myster



I believe 7-1/4 started in UK before there was much interest in the US. Naturally the first 1-1/2" scale in US started out as 7-1/4 particularly when most of the interest in the 1930's and 1940's was on the US East Coast. Somehow 7-1/2 started out on the West Coast of US - seems to me long ago I read an article on how the the two different gauges originated in Live Steam Magazine back in the 1960's?
The evolution as I remember it......
Dave S.

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 07:58:57 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Who's on first?



Tom - No soap again - Howard
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Keenan
To: 7-plus-NGM@egroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2000 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [7-plus-NGM] Who's on first?

à㰊牨à㰊ââ敢楧â慢湮牥 µ'â³㤸 ²㩤" 〷ââà㰊â慴²'â 扟慬歮â牨晥â'灴â振楬正"牧畯獰挮µ"㌯ ³ââµâ〸㐷"弯㤯"µ㐷 "â㰾散'牥à㰊µâ楷'µ㐢 â敨杩'â〶àâ 牯敤µ²〢àâ

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:56:18 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Does anyone have access to Live Steam back issues from the 1960's who can track down this article on the accident of how we ended up with 7 1/2" gauge? I would like to include it in the Train Mountain Encyclopedia, so that what must be a very interesting story can be memorialized.

Quentin

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:58:36 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



All sorts of stories float about on this transgresion. Heard one this morning, from a soon to be member of this coven, that the extra half was added inadvertantly when someone still active (no names here to protect both the innocent and the guilty) wrote down 1/2" instead of 1/4" when making notes during a call to the east on how to build track. getting to the point where we could take up that great theoligical debate on how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

I got shot down in this same conversation on my theory od wider tires being great for NG built to 2 1/2 or 3.6"/' to run bi on both 7 1/4 and 7 1/2". Owner reports that a loco with wide (EEE?) shoe size does a number on the frogswhere the outer edge works down the turnout size. Also running his NG EEE on protected frogs is a real teeth rattler and loco depreciating experiance as well as being hard on the kidneys.
Cam B

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:40:02 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Who's on first?



Why do I keep getting this?

Sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Springer
To: 7-plus-NGM@egroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [7-plus-NGM] Who's on first?

à㰊牨à㰊ââ敢楧â慢湮牥 µ'â³㜶 ²㩤" µââà㰊â慴²'â 扟慬歮â牨晥â'灴â振楬正"牧畯獰挮µ"㌯㘰ââµâ

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:45:57
From: Ian McKinley

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Hi Quentin

Seymour Johnson is often credited with causing this discrepancy, however he denied it.
In the April '84 "Live Steam" mail stop there is a letter by Seymour Johnson in which he tries to give a historical time line to show he did not cause the 7 1/2"-- 7 1/4" dispute. He states that in the May 1944 issue of "Model Craftsman" there is an article by Lester Friend of Danvers, Massachusetts, outlining the standardization of gauges as adopted by the Brotherhood of Live Steamers sometime prior to this date. The BLS established 7 1/2" gauge for 1 1/2" scale. Mr. Johnson states he did not lay track until August of 1956, some 21 years after the first recorded 7 1/2" gauge track was laid in southern Michigan by Mr. H. P. Shaw in 1935.
There is more information in the article.

Ian

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 19:51:40 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Now we are getting somewhere. I have April 1984 Live Steam. Does anyone have the May 1944 issue of Model Craftsman? A Fax of that article would be of great help in solving The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery.

Quentin

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:41:07 -0000
From: "Donald Dickens"

Subject: Wahz thiz



Gang,
Color me curious but what is this reply thread to Stan's "Who's on First" that comes up with nothing more than a banner add on my computer? What's going on?
Don Dickens

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:36:33 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Wahz thiz



I have also noticed this, and also that these messages have a coloured banner add on the bottom of the page (and most others don't) ....
no content, just the ad.

Regards
George Potter

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:16:22 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Wahz thiz



All:

I have noticed the same lack of message and presence of ads. Actually it happens fairly frequently.

It means one of three things:
1) that through a sender glitch the message did not get sent and that there is no host monitoring at all so the glitch gets sent out;
2) that the message was deliberately stripped off so that we would see the ad first thing; or,
3) the sender is not a real member but a shill to assure that we see ads first thing.

I have also noticed that the ads are becoming more intrusive. The folks who host this group should realize that we can pick up and more anytime we choose. The price of their hosting is their ability to sell our "eyeballs". If they abuse the relationship, they will lose us. On the other hand, if they were to share the revenue from the eyeball sale, that would be another matter. I would like to hear from the hosts about what they see the ultimate economic bargain being as between them as hosts and us as users.

If they do not deign to comment, then we should start looking for another arrangement.

Quentin

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 02:45:49 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Quentin, You should contact Clarke Simm of Little Engines. I have heard from many in the Fraternity that Little Engines of long ago made this transistion into 7.5" through a mistake or mis-calculation.

When Walt Disney built his live steamer, Eddie Sargent decided on 7.25" gauge and that was in 1949, yet when Walt and he had visited LE they opted not to go with the gauge/scale they offered.

Since there are fewer and fewer old timers around the Los Angeles Live Steamers, the history of the gauge wars is slowly being lost. It would be great for you to write it down for posterity!

Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 14:10:48 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: Wahz thiz - Answer from the moderator



Hello from the founder and moderator of this list,

first, let me welcome all new members since my last mail. We now have reached 81 subscribers since the founding-date march 30, 2000, and that's really impressive.

I'm really pleased, that we have some well known modellers on our list.

From that, I'm disappointed about the problems, some of you might have..

On Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:16:22 -0700 "Quentin Breen" wrote some comments, which I wish to answer and perhaps explain:

I have noticed the same lack of message and presence of ads. Actually it happens fairly frequently.

For the lack of message:

I didn't see that before you mentioned it. I get all the mails in the digest-version, and in that v ersion, all the messages come through clear without any ads. I cross-checked it on the egroups-server and found something, I had seen before. In the past, I got some private-mails, which I couldn't read. Only, when I presses the reply-button, I got the complete message.
It seems, that this happenes with mails in html-format, which are sent through Microsoft-Outlook Ex press 5.0.
I checked all the past mails with the cryptic-signs, and all where originated by MS Outlook Express 5.0, and at last, the private mails, I got, too. For the ads, I never have seen them in the digest- version and found them only on two mails on the egroups-server.
It seems, that egroups attaches the banner-link to html-mails.

It means one of three things: 1) that through a sender glitch the message did not get sent and that there is no host monitoring at all so the glitch gets sent out; 2) that the message was deliberately stripped off so that we would see the ad first thing; or, 3) the sender is not a real member but a shill to assure that we see ads first thing.

As declared above, position 1 is not correct, because all mails contain the complete text, but cannot be viewed. For position 2, in the mail-source, the banner is placed at the end of the html-code. And for position 3, ONLY members are allowed to post messages to the group.

I have also noticed that the ads are becoming more intrusive. The folks who host this group should realize that we can pick up and more anytime we choose. The price of their hosting is their ability to sell our "eyeballs".
If they abuse the relationship, they will lose us. On the other hand, if they were to share the revenue from the eyeball sale, that would be another matter. I would like to hear from the hosts about what they see the ultimate economic bargain being as between them as hosts and us as users.


That's something, which disappoint me really. I created this group to give all narrow gauge modellers a platform to discuss and share ideas as well as knowledge. This is, as well as all the pages I host for OTrains (www.wetekamp.de/oscale.htm) only volunteer-work. I NEVER THOUGHT about to get and NEVER WILL accept any money or something else for moderating this group. I'm only a railroader in many scales, and one of this scales is backyard-railroading. At last, I spent a lot of money for all this hobbies, and will come over to the states in august to visit some backyard-railroads. And the first layout, I'll visit with my friend Rudy van Wingen will be Train Mountain. As Rudy asked me, what I wish to see on our tour, I answered him, that he should choose it, but Train Mountain has to be on the schedule.

If they do not deign to comment, then we should start looking for another arrangement.

I just sent an request to egroups, how this can happen, and hope to get an answer.

Please accept my apology for any inconvenience and be sure, that I never will make any profit on this way. When I plan to make profit, I will do this open, so that everyone can see, that it's commercial.

Hubert Wetekamp
Moderator of the 7-plus-NGM - list
Werl, Germany

Please visit my web-sites
http://www.wetekamp.de
http://www.wetekamp.de/pcr_e.htm

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:49:13 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Wahz thiz - Answer from the moderator



I belong to 6 lists on egroups. My mail is set to NOT display as a web page so I don't have to look at the banner adds. This is the only list where I get blank emails. They do seem to be coming from the same couple of people so it may be an email issue.

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:52:07 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



I too have the 1984 issue and I read the post with great interest. It sees the whole mess from the western point of view. Reading the article I would think that there was no 7.25" rail laid before the 7.5" in the west. I thought this was started in England. Where exactly did this gauge start?

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:28:59 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



When I first got involved with the hobby, in the early 1960's, I received a lot of help from Carl Purinton in Boxford, MA. He was a pioneer in live steam, he died at nearly 102 years about a year ago. He claimed it was a typo in a letter that started it all. Remember when typewriters had a 1/2 and 1/4 key? The story goes that in the letter the wrong key was struck, hence the discrepancy that still exists today. If memory serves correctly, it was Lester Friend that was responsible.

Most of the old-timers in Massachusetts told the same story, so I tend to believe it is accurate. As far as any involvement by Walt Disney, that is probably an "Urban Legend."

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:05:02 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Test posting



I have attempted three postings from this computer which uses OE ver5. None have been received in readable form. I'm going to post this and then post a similar test on my business computer which uses OE ver4 to see if the problem is indeed in the server being unable to process OE% E-mail.

Tom Keenan

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:54:11 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Moderator is not the Host



Hubert:

At least we are making some progress. The glitch seems to be peculiar to Microsoft Outlook Express Version 5.

Every message has at least one ad attached. I accept your statement that you are not involved in the ad transaction. I now see that I failed to fully understand the structure. You are the moderator, but you are not the host. The host is egroups. Apparently they are the ones who are inserting the ads and selling our "eyeballs." My apologies for having confused you with them. In fact, it sounds like egroups didn't bother to tell you that there would be ads. Indeed, they failed to disclose the structure to you as well as to us.

I will be curious to see the response of egroups. I understand that egroups is in business to make a profit. My objection is that they have never disclosed who they are and the nature of the arrangement that they are offering.

If they are selling our "eyeballs" it should be with our consent and we should be compensated in some way.

For example, if egroups expects to make a profit off of our e-mail conversations, they should be facilitating the process by solving the OE5 problem. Presumably they have many such groups and the problem is not unique to this one. It sounds like they want to have the benefit without recognizing the burden.

If they are planning to take the enterprise public in a year and become millionaires, the least they can do is offer to give each group member whose eyeballs they intend to leverage, and who has stayed on board for a year, a share of stock at the offering. And they should give you a share for each person you bring on board. There is nothing wrong with this type of arrangement, as long as it is disclosed, and everyone understands what is happening.

Quentin

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:05:09 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Linc:

Your note has been a great help in beginning to solve the 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" gauge mystery. Do you, or does anyone else, know what year this might have happened? Was the letter to or from Lester Friend. Who was he? Who was on the other side of the correspondence? Was the recipient the builder of the first 7 1/2" gauge track?

Quentin

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:11:21 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Test message in OE4



I got a response from my test posting earlier today sent in OE5 that said it came through fine. Strange but welcome. This posting is from a different computer using OE 4.7.

Just a dumb question but why is 1 1/2" scale either 7 1/2" or 7 1/4" gauge? According to my $1 calculator, 56 1/2" divided by 8 is 7 1/16".

I work in both two foot gage and 7 1/2" gauge. I'm currently finishing up a very long restoration on a 5 ton Whitcomb gas mechanical industrial switcher dating either from 1937 or 1943. It was originally a "Hunt System" loco which had outside flanges on 21 1/2" gauge. It has taken most of the time trying to find parts for the Waukesha engine.

I'm also scratch building another two foot gauge 4 wheel gas-hydraulic drive industrial locomotive. This one uses a military jeep power package 40 years newer than the Waukesha and which already runs. I have been given very valuable help on the hydraulic computations and parts locating from fellow 7-plus-NGM member Howard Springer.

Both of these locos will be moved to the Florida Live Steamers 6000' railroad under construction south of Jacksonville where they will power the construction trains and haul passengers until two live steamers now under construction come on line down the road aways.
For those of you who think big trains, try a 5" scale Challenger. It's going to be something like 50' long and will weigh in at more than 20 tons. The other is a Prairie type at about 25' long being converted from a 16" gauge machine. These are long range projects by a fellow FLS member who also is the club's landlord.

To enable me to go to meets around the country and have something to operate, I've just placed an order for an F-7 gas-hydraulic unit from E & S Lines in Ellenton, FL and a chair car from Mountain Car Company. Look for an F-7 in ERIE paint scheme at Train Mountain during IBLS 2000. I don't have the machining skills to build a 7 1/2" loco. I like using a yardstick for my measuring in TFG instead of a micrometer in 7 1/2"

I also produce the FLS newsletter, The Trainline. We exchange newsletters with about 25 live steam clubs around the country. If we don't exchange with your club, let me know and we'd be glad to place you on our mailing list. If you're not a club member, we also have associate memberships available for $15/year.

Tom Keenan

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:53:43 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Stan:

The accepted wisdom is that 7 1/4" gauge originated in England and spread from there throughout the British Empire. This accounts for 7 1/4" gauge in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. It apparently is the accepted gauge in the rest of Europe as well.

It is a mystery why it started at 7 1/4". It is my understanding that English practice has traditionally been to build equipment 1 1/2" to the foot, or 1/8 scale. Yet, one-eighth of 56 1/2" is 7 1/16. No, I am not trying to start a new gauge, just making an observation.

Quentin

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 20:57:23 -0500
From: Jim Keith

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



My father was active in Southern California live steam in the 1940's. His story was that when Martin Lewis, founder of Little Engines, got into 1-1/2" scale he telephoned Lester Friend and was told that the gauge was 7-1/2". This would have been in the mid forties when he was designing his 4-8-4s.

So was it a telephone call, a letter or magazine article? I just dug out the May 1944 issue of Model Craftsman (that Ian mentioned). Sure enough, Lester Friend's article entitled 'Track and Switches' states
"the gauges which are considered standard by the Brotherhood of Live Steamers ... are ... 7-1/2" (for 1-1/2" scale).

So, in fact, maybe it was this article from which Martin Lewis got his information (or misinformation).

Yes, I do believe it was a typo or miscommunication. Even though, as Seymour Johnson points out, at least one railroad had been built in the mid-west to 7-1/2" gauge, certainly other 7-1/4" gauge engines had been built in Massachusetts, England and Europe. ... I wonder if there are any BLS records that go back this far to verify that it was, in fact, a typo?

Interesting discussion.
Jim Keith
Cincinnati

Quentin, let me know if you want a copy of the 1944 Model Craftsman article.

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 19:44:29 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Jim:

I would appreciate a copy of the article. Fax is (541) 783-2013.

I have heard the telephone call version of the story, but then I am on the West Coast. It almost seems to depend on the part of the country which version of the story you hear.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:05:17 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



My thanks to everyone who has contributed to gathering information to clarify the 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" gauge mystery. Attached is the newly revised version of the "Gauge ( 7 1/2" vs. 7 1/4")" entry in Train Mountain Encyclopedia developed as a result of the input received in the past few days.

What actually happened may never be known for sure. What is clear is that while H.P. Shaw may have been the first to build a 7 1/2" gauge track, the source of 7 1/2" gauge as the official BLS gauge is the Lester Friend article in Model Craftsman. Perhaps the typewriter error was in the preparation of the article to Model Craftsman which appeared in May 1944. If so, then why wasn't there a letter to the editor or a correction in the June or July issue? That is the one loose end.

Jim: Could you check the subsequent months of Model Craftsman to see if there is a correction or a letter to the editor?

Quentin

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:39:18 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



To All,
It is so nice to see a rational discussion on this topic. In the twenty years of ramping up my involvement with this hobby, I have seen and heard this topic before. Most of the time it is with cuss words and even some spitting at the ground! History is history. We all have to learn to deal with it. The revisionists may have a hold on our politics and classrooms, but we don't need them in our hobbies too.

Quentin, thanks so much for bringing this to light.

Now, is any one brave enough to publicly investigate 7 1/4" land's 6 3/4"B-B vs 6 7/8"B-B evolution? Make sure you're wearing your Nomex if you do!

Don

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:57:42 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



There seems to be consensus, it was Lester Friend who made the typo that started the problem. My recollection was that it was in the 1930's, but what I wrote in my first post is what I am positive I was told by CAP.

Carl's' son Charlie and grandson are still alive and involved in the hobby, back in Massachusetts want to give them a call? Lester Friends' son Joe may still be living, also in the same area. (Boxford, Topsfield or surrounds)

By the way, Joe sold the Friends line of casting to another gent, who tried to make a success of it for a few years, got in over his head. I've asked several times about buying the patterns, with no luck. I have two pairs of Friends 1 1/2 scale trucks, both regauged since moving to the "Left Coast." They were a good buy (in 1964).

Linc

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:11:36 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



Hello all,

over here in Germany and - as far as I know - the rest of Europe we are running on 5" and 7.25" tra ck. 7.5" is unknown over here.

Hubert Visit my 3" scale railroad.

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:49:41 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



Don:

I will let someone else take on the Back to Back issue in 7 1/4" Gauge, but would be happy to put the results in the Train Mountain Encyclopedia.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:31:53 EDT
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: Re: The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Hi Quentin,

You should contact Steve Booth. He and his brother Dave bought the railroad that Shaw had here in Mich, and his Daney built locomotives. That equipment is all at the Booth family estate at Tipsico Lake, just south of Flint. Shaw was rumored to have begun the mistake, by telling Martin Lewis at Little Engines the wrong size back when he started. I don't know who to believe, or anybody else that knows, or if there really is any "true" story. But Steve should be able to shed light on the subject for you.

Good Luck!

Jim Gould
Ann Arbor, MI

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:37:32 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



Hi Folks:
This discussion group delves into the really heavy topics, like how did it all start, but what about who has what? There are 80 members of the group. Who is doing what in what scales, etc? I'm new to the group, interested in 1.5 and 2.5" scales. Member of the Maricopa Live Steamers in Phoenix AZ, I am currently inquiring about the availability of castings, patterns, control systems for interurban trucks in 1.5" scale. I know of some that were arround several years ago and wonder what happened to them. They were produced by a fellow in Detroit area named Maxfield.

Don Bauer

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:55:44 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: What we have



I am currently modelling in 7/8ths scale on Gauge 1 track. The plan is to move up to 3 5/8ths scale on 7.25" track. My main interest is Maine two-footers and industrial railroads. Big models of small trains. I hope to jump into 3 5/8ths next winter. Maybe I'll round it up to 3 3/4 scale since it's close and easier to deal with. I'll just fudge the trucks.

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:17:35 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



Don:

I am really nothing more than a track guy, having put down about 75,000 feet of it in 7 1/2" gauge. In between I collect 1.6 scale engines: F-7 A-B in SP Black Widow battery powered, two sets of F-7 A-B-B-As in Great Northern and D&RGW livery currently undergoing conversion to Kuboda diesel power plants all built by Backyard Rails, Dash 8 engine and dummy second unit build by Gerry Bowdin with Vanguard 18 HP engine awaiting War Bonnet paint (or BNSF Heritage II if the prototypes are re-painted), GP-50 with Kohler 8 engine in GN green livery built by Backyard Rails, two NYC S-3 electrics originally built by Koster and recently converted to Roll Models electric motors and controls, plus some odds and ends. Have the beginnings of a 1.5 scale Yellowstone which may be finished in five years. See Train Mountain web site at www.halcyon.com/dfm/tm.

Quentin Breen

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:28:41 EDT
From: Smallhand@aol.com

Subject: Re: What we have



I'm new to the hobby and to the list. I'm currently at the halfway point building the "Boxcab" diesel that ran in Live Steam, a few years back, If this is successful, I'll attempt to build a 2 12" model of a GE 80-ton gas-electric switcher. So far the information gathered at this sight is incredible.

Raymond Hill
Orange County Model Engineers (California)

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:10:48 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: What we have



Hi Folks and especially Don:

I'm doing some 6" scale on 7-1/2" track; half size Heywood 4-wheel wagons. My loco will be built from a riding lawnmower on a 4-wheel chassis. This will be more of a full size estate railway than a scale model of something. I don't have much 7-1/2" ga. track down, but I have about 170' of gauge 1, running 1-1/2" scale Heywood models. For work, I drive coal trains on the Burlington. Quentin, don't repaint your Warbonnet, it looks a lot better than Punkin 2.

Mike Decker

Decker Estates Amalgamated Railways

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:33:15 -0000
From: bcantu@ci.manteca.ca.us

Subject: (unknown)



Anyone interested in financing or partnershipping in a commerical large-scale railroad (15" gauge, 3.5" scale) park project in Northern California? About 50 acres in size; plans include large man-made lake, RV parking spaces, and four different mainlines. Adjacent major highway through California.

Ben

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:33:14 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: What we have



For Bro. Zdnock (did I spell it right?) Get mon line with a Doc Cernack in France (see cc out of my address book) who is someone you should get to know. He is working in the scales and area that attract you and has done neat styff in 7/8" industrial and Maine prototype. Doc's stature in the NG line is assured as far as I am concerned with a marvelous book and folio of prints on the original K-! (and K-2) Garrets built for a 2 fter (or 60 cm) line in Tasmania. This (these) locos will be running again this fall on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Rwy. in Wales as all the body parts were sent back to there home years ago. Resuscitation has bee going on for the last few years.

Call up the Ff. and Welch Highlands on the web. Great sites.

And hello Doc. You should get in on this e-group or whatever it is called.

cam B/

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:36:39 +0100
From: Mike Woodroffe

Subject: What we have



Hi Everyone

I am running a 15" guage NG railway in Powys Wales. The line, currently 1.25 miles was started by my Dad some 25 years ago. He is sadly no longer with us. The loco 0-6-2 (Powys) was built by Severn Lamb of Stratford to a David Curwen design and is a sister to Zebedee and Dougal
(and maybe a Muffin).

We run for charity 2 or 3 times a year. If anyone (U.K. based I assume)

wants to come along to have a ride, smell "the smell" and discover one of the lesser known "Great Little Trains of Wales" please let me know and I will post the dates to the list when they are fixed for this year.

We also have "track weekends" when anyone with a shovel and big boots is

welcome to come along and experience working with the "slightly bigger stuff". Again if anyone is interested I will post the dates.

I look forward to meeting some of you throughout the course of the summer.

Mike Woodroffe

Rhiew Valley Light Railway
Powys
Wales

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:36:31 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



Da list,

I've been a live steam lurker and a model railroader for years but was always disapointed that fellow live steamers were all machinists and not railroaders. That all changed 4 years ago when I met Quentin and got to play on his model railroad all 75,000 feet of it! Well that was 50,000 feet ago and now I have a 1.7 scale RailSystems SW1500, two gons, two flats, a hopper, a box car, all set to go and a bay window caboose on order. I also have a digital camera and have taken a few pictures of 1 1/2 - 7 1/2 stuff. Check the photos on my website. And you are right, this is quite a list. I've got more from this list in it's very short history than the rest of them put together.

russ@hobby-tronics.com
www.hobby-tronics.com

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:14:03 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: What we have



Hello from Germany,

I was bitten by the backyard-railroad bug back in the beginning 80's, but starting a new career in the county-office and living in a small rented space I was not able to build or finance backyard-equipment.

Three years ago, a friend of mine started with narrow gauge on 5" track, and in 1998, he was at the Indoor Live Steamfestival in Sinsheim, Germany. There, I rode his train, and the bug came out again.

After the show, we switched over to 7.25" for much safer running, and in fall/winter 1998/1999 I built up the first backyard-locomotive of my life. In the meantime, I added a 4-wheel-flat-car and the running-frame for an Westside Lumber Caboose.

I model in 3" scale with an prototype-gauge of 30".

Some pictures of my equipment can be seen under http://www.wetekamp.de/pcr_e.htm and a report about the Sinsheim Show 2000 was published in the actual issue of the 7+ Railroader (former the 7+ Narrow Gauger).

Hubert The Goose
Moderator of the list

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:05:42 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Jim:

Your fax of the May 1944 Model Craftsman is very interesting. Not only is there the 7 1/2" gauge reference in the body of the text of the article, it is also in a hand drawn table along with the diagrams of trestles and switches. This suggests that it was not a simple error of hitting the wrong typewriter key in preparing the manuscript for the publisher. Indeed, the hand drawn table is actually signed and dated by "L.D. Friend." In summary, the 7 1/2" gauge references are not accidental.

The article makes a number of references to New England Live Steamers in Danvers, Mass. I assume that at that time if the New England Live Steamers had track to run 1 1/2" scale equipment, that track was 7 1/4" gauge track. If so, was Friend trying to change the gauge?

It might be useful to compile a list of 7 1/4" gauge tracks in North America and when they were first installed. The Seymour Johnson letter in April 1984 Live Steam lists the first 7 1/2" gauge tracks. A similar list for 7 1/4" gauge would help put Lester Friend's apparently deliberate actions in the proper context.

As Alice said as the got deeper and deeper into Wonderland, "It gets mysteriouser and mysteriouser."

Quentin

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:09:54 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



I have been giving further thought to the mystery. We have been assuming that there were 7 1/4" gauge tracks in North America prior to 1944. The May/June 1999 issue of Live Steam has a reprint of an article in the December 1933 issue of The Modelmaker describing the first meeting of the Brotherhood of Live Steamers, hosted by Chas. A. Purinton on October 15, 1933. That article has a list and photographs of all the engines present at that meet. Nine engines are 2 1/2" gauge and three are 3 1/2" gauge. There is no mention of any larger gauge.

The thrust of the May 1944 Model Craftsman article was how to build trestles for 1/2" and 3/4" scale elevated track. Is it possible that there was no 7 1/4" track until after W.W.II? That the hobby might have been limited to the smaller scales during the depression would not come as a surprise simply because of the economic realities of that period.

I repeat my call for research on when the first 7 1/4" gauge tracks were put down.

Quentin

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:07:48 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



"Curiouser and curiouser":Alice.

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:53:18 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Of course: "curiouser" not "mysteriouser." Spent too much time in the looking glass.

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:43:51 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Live in caretaker needed...



The JT&S RR Museum and Club needs a live in caretaker(s). We are located in the high desert region 35 miles northeast of Palm Springs, CA (Joshua Tree) .

If you have a trailer, camper or motorhome and would like to live rent free in exchange for easy to moderate caretaker duties, have we got a deal for you.

Our 320 acres adjacent to the Joshua Tree National Monument has an excellent year round climate and is located near good markets, health care and recreational/entertainment facilities. Our camping facility has full hookup pull through sites with an on site bathroom, shower and outdoor cooking facility. Camping is for members and invited guests only and occurs once a month or less. Museum tours would be conducted at your discrtion by appointment only.

Duties would consist of maintaining a watch on the property, attending to some maintainance such as checking that the irrigation system is working properly and the night protection lights are in good order, campground host if you like, and plenty of other activity if you are able, willing and interested.

The facility has a complete machine shop, wood working shop, foundry, and over a mile of 7.5" gauge/2.5" scale model RR track, a new "G" scale layout, and a good start on a 15" gauge/5" scale track.

If you are interested or know of anyone who might be, please contact Rudy van Wingen, V.P., at dmmcomo@socal.rr.com.

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 00:48:10 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: What we have



Well as long as everyone is giving bio's might as well introduce myself too.

Jeff Badger age 39. Railroad bug bit hard as a young child, and was alway into full size railfan type stuff. Bought my first lantern when I was 12, and now have over 30.
Live steam when I was 17 and hostled for Roaring Camp where I still occasionaly fire for them. When I was 18 went to hand bombing (coal fired lokies) on a 2' gauge line in Golden, Co. After that worked on restoration of a full size 2-6-2 at a museum in So. Calif. It wasn't until 5 years ago that I got into "G" scale live steam, and 2 years ago liquidated most of my engines and built a LE 4-4-0. Completed in Jan. this year and just sold it. Now I have a Meg Steam "Wendy" 3.75" gauge and just finished building a riding car.(See File section for a pic). I am a member of Golden Gate Live Steamers, Bay Area Garden Railroaders, Pacific Coast Live Steamers, and Portola Valley and Alpine. I have approx. 1100 feet of track at the campground I manage here in Santa Cruz County. I am currently finishing up a RMI Davenport Gas Hydraulic and another riding car. I look forward to all your conversations and think this forum is great!

Happy Steaming!
Jeff Badger

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 07:40:24 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: Live in caretaker needed...



I would be interested but I have a few years left before I can retire.

Ben

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:51:23 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



I believe the 7 1/2 gauge in the West existed before the Model Craftsman article. My recollection is that is was in the 1930's the typo occurred. By the time Les Friend wrote his article there was already 7 1/2" gauge equipment built in the West.

The NELS track in Danvers, MA was an elevated track for 3/4" and 1" scale, there may have been some 1/2" as well. No 7 1/4' track existed at that site. Some of the earlier examples of 7 1/2" track were at the Topsfield (MA) Fair Grounds, which had a Friend's Hudson, and Carl Purintons track in Boxford, MA. The Friend's Hudson has been restored and is at the Masonic Home in Charlemont, MA.

Linc

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 12:28:31 -0500
From: Jim Keith

Subject: Re: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Indeed the plot thickens, becoming "curiouser" and "mysteriouser."

Quentin, I didn't notice the hand drawn table, dated 12/10/43, in Friend's article until I was faxing the article to you. Certainly, this does raise questions.

Since the NELS elevated track at Friend's box factory was 2-1/2" and 3-17/32" gauge and the articles Friend wrote for Model Craftsman were for 3/4" scale engines, it would seem that he had little involvement with 7+ gauges. Thus, one wonders what consensus there was regarding the tabulated 1-1/2" scale 'BLS Standard'? As you suggest, it would be nice to know the setting for this play. Who and how many were building 7plus and who was Friend representing?

We really need some input from a New England LS historian (some have been suggested).

For my part:

First: I looked through about a years worth of Model Craftsman (following May 1944) for corrections, rebuttals or commentary regarding the set forth 7-1/2" gauge standard. I found nothing (I, perhaps, could have missed a correction since, I found, they tend to be tucked in anywhere).

Second: I have been paging through the old Model Maker magazine, which evidently started it's life in 1924. I have (all but a few) issues from Aug 1929 to Jun 1940. Don't know how long MM lasted after that (the Model Maker Corp was merged with A.C. Kalmbach in April 1935). Of course, PUBLISHED info sometimes lacks the 'real story'. But, for what its worth, here is what I have come across so far:

Model Maker Magazine:
--------------------

-- 1932 Sep p303: 6 page article describing a 1-1/2" scale model of PRR K4s (4-6-2) built to 7" gauge (no NOT 7-1/4") by Calvert Holt (location not given). Article says that 'factory track' was laid from shop door to a distance of 150 feet. 2 photos of nice looking engine/train in garden included.

-- 1932 Nov p370: 12 pages are devoted to the 'opening' of the Hamilton and Dundas model railway, 7-1/4" gauge, in Waltham Mass at the residence of W.H. Nichols. Attending were the Boston Association of Model Engineers. Track consisted of a 500' continuous loop, with accommodation for the smaller (2-1/2" & 3-1/2") gauges in the 'straight track' section.

-- 1933 Jan p8: Frank G Willey of Cincinnati Ohio describes his 7 1/4" gauge electric 0-6-6-0 locomotive (two 3/8 HP 110V DC motors with 3rd rail pickup). He says "no permanent track has been constructed as yet." (1 page)

-- 1934 Feb p54: Ralph J Kelley describes his 1-1/2" scale locomotive. A photo of his 2-6-2 on an outdoor ground-level track is shown, but NO city, state or GAUGE is given.

-- 1935 Jun p207: HP Shaw writes about his 500' 7-1/2" gauge railroad (with plans for 2000') in Southern Michigan. Evidently, he uses 8 lb mine rail. Photos included of his 0-6-0 locomotive and train with passengers. [[Sited by Seymour Johnson in LS 84 Apr and, in turn, by Ian McKinley.]]

-- 1935 Nov p39: Two page article about a 7-1/4" gauge Royal Scot, built by the firm Bassett-Lowke Ltd, Northampton. 3 photos included. Bassett's future plans for this model are not stated.

-- 1937 AugSep p165: A (single) photo of Edward Jones of Whitfor MD piloting his 7 1/4" gauge 4-6-0.

-- 1939 Nov p53: In a report of the Annual BLS Meeting at Danvers Mass, Oct 7 & 8, a 1.5" scale cylinder and saddle assembly built by AL Larson of Worcester Mass was displayed. Unfortunately, the gauge was not given.

--------------------
And in the Model Craftsman AFTER Lester Friend's May 44 article "Track and Switches" (with drawing dated 12/10/43), so far I have spotted:
--------------------

-- 44 Dec p23: No gauge given for 1 1/2" scale Pacific type loco shown in two photos built by Wm L Daney of Pueblo Colorado.

-- 44 Jul p34: The traveling Lester Friend reports on Paul Reithmaier's (Chicago) 1 1/2", 7 1/2" gauge Hudson nearing completion. The article also reports that NELS expects to add 2 or 3k feet of 3/4" and 1" to present (1/2" and 3/4") trackage in Danvers after WWII.

--------------------
Also noted, but probably not relevant in the Model Maker Magazine:
--------------------
-- 1935 Feb Cover & p46: A several page article with 4 photos is devoted to a 9 1/4" gauge railway in Jhansie U.P. India.

-- 1940 Mar p202: In his column, 'With the Live Steamers', Charles A Purinton includes a photo of train loaded passengers at the St Louis Fair; the 4-4-0 engine was built by JW Shriver of Denver Colorado. It was stated that the gauge was about 8".

--------------------

Well, I suppose this is really just a start. Don't know when I'll have a chance to look further. I suspect that someone out there can shed more light on this **and** other mag issues (which I don't have) may be available at public libraries. Plus there is the Model Engineer magazine to check for 7plus history in the UK ????

Sorry for the long post. .... Stan Zdonik suggested putting the May 44 Friend article on the WEB; I don't have immediate access to a scanner but probably could find a way. (Or maybe I could fax a copy to someone who could put it on the web??? Might some of the above articles also be of interest.)

Back to the shop,
Jim Keith

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:27:51 -0500
From: Jim Keith

Subject: Re: RE: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Linc:
Did you really mean that the Topsfield Fair Grounds track and Purinton's track were 7-1/2", not 7-1/4"?? Do you know when these were built? And when the Hudson was built?

Jim K

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:41:32 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Jim:

Your research is a good start. It does suggest pre-war 7 1/4" activity. It sounds like the New England guys may have some answers. Anyone on the list know some of them?

Quentin

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:45:34 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: RE: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Linc:

I take it that Friend was an engine builder. It sounds like he built engines to 7 1/2" gauge. In an era when there were not too many tracks, perhaps tracks were built to accommodate the engines. Any comment out there?

Quentin

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:24:56 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Quentin:

See if you can entice Russ Steeves and Father Jay, both stalwarts at Waushakum LSers to join this from on "who said what to whom and when" See cc addresses.This skirmish is the closest the hobby seems to have come in approaching a solution of this mystery.

Russ' Fitchburg #5 pix in current Modeltec. If you like black paint and shiny brass, you shall love her. Runs good. Nice whistle.

Cam B

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:50:09 EDT
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: Re: 7 1/4" vs. 7 1/2" Wrapup



Hi Don,

My name is Jim Gould, Ann Arbor, Mi. I have all the Maxfield truck patterns and parts. They went from Maxfield to a fellow named Alex Azary and then to me. We have been supplying the castings and complete trucks to people who were building the interurbans from the Modeltec series by Al Albecker.

Now that the history is out of the way, what can I help you with?
Thanks
Jim Gould

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:50:44 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: NICE whistle?



'Nice' Whistle!?!?!?!?
Hooboy Cam. What an understatement! Of course I've not heard them all, but Russ' whistle is the sweetest,loudest so called miniature whistle I've ever heard! A meet at ALS is not complete without THAT whistle out in the woods.

So when are you coming back north, Cam?

Don

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:11:22 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: Banner at the end of messages [#3200540]



Hello Kraig,

I wasn't able to find any messages in the group's archive that appeared as you described. The pr oblem may be with the e-mail client that is reading the messages, or the encoding setting in the browser. If you would like me to investigate further, please give me some specific message numbers.

Message 149, 152 as example. In the archive, they show only < and nothing more. The source shows the complete message, and than a lot of signs, which cannot be read.


BTW, I copied this message also to the group, so that they can see, what's going on.

Hubert

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:08:41 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: fax



If you fax the article to me I'll post it. I'll leave my computer on to answer as a fax. 413-567-1694

Stan

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:18:00 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: fax



Dooh! I meant to send the directly to Jim. Oh well, if anyone has interesting stuff to send to me my fax will be up all night!

At 05:08 PM 4/19/2000 -0400, you wrote:

If you fax the article to me I'll post it. I'll leave my computer on to answer as a fax.

Stan

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:13:29 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Cam:

An excellent suggestion. However, I am about to take off on a boat trip up the Amazon (the river, not the dot com) and will not be back until May 6; the sad truth is that all of us have lives other than on the Internet. Could I ask you to follow through on your own suggestion? Maybe there will be some more hard facts by the time I have returned.

Quentin

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:12:04 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Messages with banners, but no text



Hello,

today, I got a similar experience from another group, I'm subscribed (as a cofounder a couple of ye ars ago) to.

Following, I post a message, I found their, and it seems to declare the problems. From egroups, I d on't got another answer until yet.

Hubert

Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:22:21 -0400
From: "Pennwest"
Subject: Re: Gripe

Rod,

You're right that the banner ads are annoying. However, they are added by egroups and not by the individual's ISP. The banners only show up if your outgoing mail is set to "html". If you send "plain text", then the ad shows up as a link to be clicked on, not a banner. I'm sure there will be a link on the bottom of this message when it arrives on the list.

To change message format in Microsoft Outlook Express, click on "Tools" on the top menu bar, then click "Options", then >click the "Send" tab. There will be a "Mail Sending Format" section where you can choose "HTML" or "Plain Text". Click next to plain text. Other mail programs must have similar options or references that can be changed.

Bob Bartizek
(all the stuff below was added by egroups)


Hubert

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:44:15 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Fwd: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Russ and Father J:
There has been a really productive discussion raging on the 7-plus-NGM website on what happened to introduce the 7 1/2" gauge into Live Steam. This is a new site being active for only three weeks or so but it is a dandy.They have a file of postings that I think you will find interesting.

If all works the way it should, you will have attached a note from Quentin Breen who is amalgomating what may well be considered gospel as to how this mix-up on guages came about writing inTrain Mountain Encyclopedia. no. I haven't downloaded this yet. He is trying to smoke out who said what to whom back in the early 20th century as to what gauge is what. Specific question that drags you guys into the fray was his question as to what gauge and where the early tracks were in Massachussets. You kmow the place - the Cradle of American Civilization.

Cam Brown
How did #5 find her to Leesport and Modeltec pages?

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:55:13 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: Friends Models



First, thanks for setting record straight on the Danvers NELS track straight, being built for 1/2" and 3/4" scale equipment. I visited the track once, just before it was torn up, an apartment building was built on the site.

I don't know the history of Friends Models, I first became aware of the line from an Article in a in-1950's Yankee Magazine. We drove to the Yankee Shop and met Les Friend. At that time I was considering the Tom Thumb, and it was suggested it might be an appropriate project as Les's son Joe had built one at about my (10 or 11).

Shortly thereafter the NELS track was torn up. 7 or 8 year letter, on graduating from High School I bought my first lathe, a very tired South Bend 9". At the time I was working as a Transmitter Technician for WMUR-TV in Manchester, NH. The late Bob St. Pierre was running the Film Department at WMUR and had pictures of several live steamers in his office. He had build a box cab diesel in 7 1/4 " gauge he ran on his property on Goffstown.

He suggested getting started by building a pair of Friends trucks. He also introduced me to Carl Purinton, who was almost a neighbor, as we lived in Boxford at the time. The Friends trucks were about 1/2 the price of Little Engines. I called Joe Friend and made arrangement to drive to his home in a neighboring town to pick up the casting and a catalog... which I still have. After I finished the first set I bought castings for a second. Before they were finished I was drafted and my projects on hold for some time.

On my return to civilian life Friends Models was gone, although I found that a gent by the name of Boucher had purchased the business from Joe Friend. Apparently Mr. Boucher had a number of business of problems and closed the business after a short time. Time line unknown to me, as by that time I had built a Carl Purinton Mogul and started on a Little Engines Atlantic. The friends trucks became tender trucks for both locos.

Mr. Boucher still owns the patterns, but is reluctant to sell them, consequently the line has been unavailable for decades.

Most of the equipment was 1/2, 3/4, and 1" Scale, but there was also an 1 1/2" Hudson, which Les Friend built for the Joy Town railroad at the Topsfield Fairgrounds. I saw the engine there one time, but it was not operational. The line ran that day with a diesel, which was also a Friend creation.

If there is interest I can scan a few pages of the catalog and post them.

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:13:35 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: RE: Live in caretaker needed...



Hi Ben -

Glad to know you're interested. Unfortunately, our need is fairly immediate, but that doesn't mean there won't be a future opportunity. The JT&S Club is the only one of the original "Live In Live Steam" concept clubs that I know of that is still in existence, and we do have potential home sites that could be leased to anyone who meets our criteria.

Why don't you come on down and give us a visit at one of our meets and get acquainted. You might be surprised to see what a track that is built to 2-1/2" scale standards looks like!

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:36:09 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: RE: Live in caretaker needed...



Thanks for the invite. I will consider it on our next vacation.

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:54:39 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Article posted



The May 1944 Model Craftsman article can now be found in the files area in the "7.25 vs. 7.5" folder. I tried to straighten the image as best I could from the fax. It is still quite legible.

Stan

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:28:28 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: A big burner for a big locomotive

I just could not keep the attached photo undercover. The workmanship of Chris Hollands of Perth Australia on his Challenger locomotive and the fantastic Propane burner by Al (who did a remarkable design & build job on the burner, but at this point wishes anonymity since he is not in the business of providing information nor hardware services) are a testament that great things are still happening in our hobby.

With Propane being such a clean fuel and so easy to fire, it might very well be the reason that more and more live steamers are using Propane for new construction and others are converting their existing coal and oil burners soon after they have had an opportunity to run a well designed and built Propane fired locomotive. With a Propane fire it allows flue tube diameters to be significantly smaller in diameter with the result of being able to include more tubes in a boiler which then creates a much greater heating surface to wring more heat out of the fire.

Doug

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:41:42 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: A big burner for a big locomotive



Doug,

The reason we went with Propane is that the insurance laws give us a break with it because when it leaks it stays closer to the ground and doesn't disipate throughout the upper air causing a chance of larger explosions. This was the reasoning behind Michael Jackson's train and the two in San Antonio's Fiesta Texas Theme Park.

Sharon

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:56:55 -0700
From: Russ Warr

Subject: Re: A big burner for a big locomotive



Doug,

Now that's a burner. If Al ever wants to build me one than he can name his price!!! I have a Pacific with a fire box dimension of 9x14...

Russ

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:12:04 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Messages with banners, but no text



Hello,

today, I got a similar experience from another group, I'm subscribed (as a cofounder a couple of years ago) to.

Following, I post a message, I found their, and it seems to declare the problems. From egroups, I don't got another answer until yet.

Hubert

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:44:15 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Fwd: More on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery



Russ and Father J:
There has been a really productive discussion raging on the &plus-NGM website on what happened to introduce the 7 1/2" gauge into Live Steam. This is a new site being active for only three weeks or so but it is a dandy.They have a file of postings that I think you will find interesting.

If all works the way it should, you will have attached a note from Quentin Breen who is amalgomating what may well be considered gospel as to how this mix-up on guages came about writing inTrain Mountain Encyclopedia. no. I haven't downloaded this yet. He is trying to smoke out who said what to whom back in the early 20th century as to what gauge is what. Specific question that drags you guys into the fray was his question as to what gauge and where the early tracks were in Massachussets. You kmow the place - the Cradle of American Civilization.

Cam Brown
How did #5 find her to Leesport and Modeltec pages?

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:55:13 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: Friends Models



First, thanks for setting record straight on the Danvers NELS track straight, being built for 1/2" and 3/4" scale equipment. I visited the track once, just before it was torn up, an apartment building was built on the site.

I don't know the history of Friends Models, I first became aware of the line from an Article in a in-1950's Yankee Magazine. We drove to the Yankee Shop and met Les Friend. At that time I was considering the Tom Thumb, and it was suggested it might be an appropriate project as Les's son Joe had built one at about my (10 or 11).

Shortly thereafter the NELS track was torn up. 7 or 8 year letter, on graduating from High School I bought my first lathe, a very tired South Bend 9". At the time I was working as a Transmitter Technician for WMUR-TV in Manchester, NH. The late Bob St. Pierre was running the Film Department at WMUR and had pictures of several live steamers in his office. He had build a box cab diesel in 7 1/4 " gauge he ran on his property on Goffstown.

He suggested getting started by building a pair of Friends trucks. He also introduced me to Carl Purinton, who was almost a neighbor, as we lived in Boxford at the time. The Friends trucks were about 1/2 the price of Little Engines. I called Joe Friend and made arrangement to drive to his home in a neighboring town to pick up the casting and a catalog... which I still have. After I finished the first set I bought castings for a second. Before they were finished I was drafted and my projects on hold for some time.

On my return to civilian life Friends Models was gone, although I found that a gent by the name of Boucher had purchased the business from Joe Friend. Apparently Mr. Boucher had a number of business of problems and closed the business after a short time. Time line unknown to me, as by that time I had built a Carl Purinton Mogul and started on a Little Engines Atlantic. The friends trucks became tender trucks for both locos.

Mr. Boucher still owns the patterns, but is reluctant to sell them, consequently the line has been unavailable for decades.

Most of the equipment was 1/2, 3/4, and 1" Scale, but there was also an 1 1/2" Hudson, which Les Friend built for the Joy Town railroad at the Topsfield Fairgrounds. I saw the engine there one time, but it was not operational. The line ran that day with a diesel, which was also a Friend creation.

If there is interest I can scan a few pages of the catalog and post them.

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:13:35 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: RE: Live in caretaker needed...



Hi Ben -

Glad to know you're interested. Unfortunately, our need is fairly immediate, but that doesn't mean there won't be a future opportunity. The JT&S Club is the only one of the original "Live In Live Steam" concept clubs that I know of that is still in existence, and we do have potential home sites that could be leased to anyone who meets our criteria.

Why don't you come on down and give us a visit at one of our meets and get acquainted. You might be surprised to see what a track that is built to 2-1/2" scale standards looks like!

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:36:09 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: RE: Live in caretaker needed...



Thanks for the invite. I will consider it on our next vacation.

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:54:39 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Article posted



The May 1944 Model Craftsman article can now be found in the files area in the "7.25 vs. 7.5" folder. I tried to straighten the image as best I could from the fax. It is still quite legible.

Stan

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:28:28 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: A big burner for a big locomotive



I just could not keep the attached photo undercover. The workmanship of Chris Hollands of Perth Australia on his Challenger locomotive and the fantastic Propane burner by Al (who did a remarkable design & build job on the burner, but at this point wishes anonymity since he is not in the business of providing information nor hardware services) are a testament that great things are still happening in our hobby.

With Propane being such a clean fuel and so easy to fire, it might very well be the reason that more and more live steamers are using Propane for new construction and others are converting their existing coal and oil burners soon after they have had an opportunity to run a well designed and built Propane fired locomotive. With a Propane fire it allows flue tube diameters to be significantly smaller in diameter with the result of being able to include more tubes in a boiler which then creates a much greater heating surface to wring more heat out of the fire.

Doug

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:41:42 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: A big burner for a big locomotive



Doug,

The reason we went with Propane is that the insurance laws give us a break with it because when it leaks it stays closer to the ground and doesn't disipate throughout the upper air causing a chance of larger explosions. This was the reasoning behind Michael Jackson's train and the two in San Antonio's Fiesta Texas Theme Park.

Sharon

Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:56:55 -0700
From: Russ Warr

Subject: Re: A big burner for a big locomotive



Doug,

Now that's a burner. If Al ever wants to build me one than he can name his price!!! I have a Pacific with a fire box dimension of 9x14...

Russ

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:32:48 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Propane safety



It is surprising to me that propane fueling would result in a price break on insurance based on safety. "Safe" as opposed to what other fuels, one wonders...

I have only had one personal experience with a propane accident, it was a minor one involving a 1" Little Engines switcher on a backyard RR and involved a broken supply pipe between the locomotive and fuel car. The line separated and lit off from the burner, then "blowtorched" until the supply valve was shut off. Minor, no injuries, but scary - and of course a lot of redesign was done to prevent a recurrence.

The following story is anecdotal, since I was not actually there to experience it. It is repeated as reported to me by several close friends who were there, however. Others in the 7+NGM group may have been there and have a different slant on it and I welcome correction.

A near disaster was narrowly diverted sevaral years ago on Harry Pulaski's 3" scale 9" gauge Mesa Grande Western in the foothills south of Pear Blossom, CA. Harry had a D&RGW C-16 fueled by a small "dummy air" tank mounted on the rear tender deck behind the tender tank.

The run was being held in the winter months, and at the 3000' + altitude on the east slope of the San Gabriel Mountains it was a pretty cold day. The small tank had insufficient volume to prevent it from freezing up under a heavy load under those conditions, so Harry had wrapped several turns of 1/8" diameter copper tubing around the tank and bled a little steam through it to heat the tank.

The inevitable happened: During a stiff climb under a full load, the train stalled in a cut on a curve. The engineer operating the locomotive had a pretty heavy flow of steam running through the heater tube, and the tank was good and warm. When the loco stalled, the resultant load drop on the tank caused the pressure to spike and the tank safety to lift, spewing raw propane into the air behind the locomotive.

Fortunately, the propane did settle to the ground, so that when the gas pool lit off from the locomotive, the resultant fireball came up from under the cars and tender. Luckily, no one had dismounted so the cars protected the occupants and the worst injuries were some pretty badly burned arms when the flames swept up and over the cars. Also, luckily, the tank safety closed quickly and did not continue feeding the fire.

It took quite a while to put out the resultant brush fires started on the adjacent hillsides and several more burns were experienced doing this with shovels and wet burlap. There was a pretty large group there and Harry was well prepared for fire fighting.

Again, LUCKILY, no one in the cars had their hair or clothing set afire. Shortly after this incident Harry succumbed to cancer and the purchaser of his layout and equipment switched to atomized oil burning. Since then there have been no serious incidents and the locomotives run much better on the oil.

Not too many years prior to this incident an man, his wife, and a female guest(?) were burned to death in a similar fire in a propane fueled steam car at an antique car rally at Knotts Berry Farm....

Luck is a wonderful thing, but when dealing with volatile gaseous fuel under pressure, it is not something to count on.

I personally get very nervous around our brethren's propane fired locomotives; I always wonder just how safely they are designed and even more importantly maintained. I always worry that in the heat and excitement of a meet, unloading after a sometimes long, arduous and fatigueing drive to that meet, and excited to get out and running on the track, if proper caution is being exercised to inspect and correct possible defects.

I for one will always opt for the dirtier, smellier, and far less convenient solid or liquid fuels. If clubs allow propane firing, they should address the problems of safety and individual members' reliability and knowledge when using this fuel.

Rudy van Wingen
Vice President
JT&S RR Club & Museum

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:47:42 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Propane safety



Is there a good, safe, gas supply line that would shut off the supply if the line became detached? This seems to be a prudent precaution if it's available.

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:52:03 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Bar style trucks



I've noticed that the sites selling trucks for 1.5" and above use castings for the trucks. Does anyone out there make their own from flat stock? Is there a market for such trucks? When I get into 7.25" running I plan on modelling two-footers and the Maine trucks look simple enough to build from flat stock. They're not available commercially anyway. I think the largest trucks are in the 2.5" scale.

Stan

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:03:18 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Propane Safety



(Rudy,)

You share some very compelling reasons for considering and following safety rules at all times when dealing with Propane and for that matter any type of fuel.

Design/build and operation of Propane burners in our locomotives is critical but if done correctly, it is in my opinion, safe. I realize we have had different feelings on this in the past and suppose we will continue to have our personal choices of fuel, but again, safety is of most importance regardless of the fuel used.

Caution is the word in all that we do, and with diligent care and knowledge, we can minimize the risks in how and what we do.

A few years ago I observed wood ties on Tom Millers track being consumed by burning oil from a leaking oil burner live steamer.

At our own KLS track this year, I observed a parked live steam locomotive leaking oil and setting the ties afire.

Fueling and using gasoline in diesel type locomotives can also be dangerous. Our club now requires that gas run locomotives be refueled in the yard and away from the general public in case of an incident.

You may recall in my note I shared a year or so ago regarding those who feel placing propane tanks in their tender water tanks is a good way to keep the propane tank from chilling. Propane tanks must be fully vented and to install them in a water tank is creating an unnecessary risk. Since propane is heavier than air and should there be a leak at the tank, the gas may be constrained within the water tank and create an explosive situation only waiting to happen.

Running Propane in very cold weather is a challenge. Part of the design of a propane car is having enough storage area, or evaporative surface area, so that the tank or tanks will absorb enough heat energy from the surrounding space so that they don't frost up and stop evaporating gas. People should check with their local Propane dealer to determine how much evaporative surface or what size tank is required for their individual application. One shoe does not fit all situations.

Happy steaming, and do it Safely

Doug

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:13:03 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Propane safety



Good question regarding leaks.

I have found that either hard threaded connections, which take extra time while connecting up in the steaming bay, or the use of quick disconnects (The type sold for barbecues) provide good connections. Slip on rubber hoses is certainly out of the question as such connections are not secure.

On most of our Propane applications in our area, the gas pressure is reduced at the tank to around 10psi. A quick shutoff valve is downstream of that and the burner gas flow is controlled by a 1/8" or smaller ball valve in the locomotive cab. Keeping the design of the burner so that it operates on low pressure certainly minimizes the problem of a high pressure flexible gas line flailing around. Do have your local Propane gas dealer make up your flexible gas lines using the correct hose material and crimped fittings. I manifold my dual tank propane car with 1/4" threaded brass piping.

Do not take chances with disconnects. Do it right.

Doug

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:59:21 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: What we have



I got started back in the early 70's with a magazine article about the New Jersey Livesteamers. I experimented in a few other hobbies but never became as interested in them as I was in live steam model railroading. I built my first locomotive while in high school and just completed my second last fall. I'll be 40 years old on April 24th. Last spring(1999) I started building my own 7 1/4" gauge track tha will be 1,250 feet long. (The nearest club track is 150 miles away and I didn't want to drive that far to run my trains.) The latest locomotive is 1 1/2" scale (Railroad Supply 4-4-0) standard gauge but the next will be 2 1/2" scale narrow gauge. I am currently building a 2 1/2" scale gas mechanical critter to help with track laying and a 2 1/2" scale 2-6-0 will follow.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:34:32 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Bar style trucks



Too many years ago, Dick Rohrer (sp?) had cxastings including axcle boxes for arch bar trucks available in 3,75" scale along with other do-dads stake pockets etc. The 3/4 size model of two foot couplers were (are?) real war clubs,

cam B

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:34:09 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: Bar style trucks



Looking for arch bar trucks and components try WWW.realtrains.com .

B Cantu

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 21:30:23 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Bar style trucks



Stan you need to check out Real Trains in Yuciapa, Ca. They use flat stock for their arch bar trucks and have them available in 3.75" scale to run on 7.25" track which is proper for 2' gauge prototype. http://www.realtrains.com

regards,
Jeff BAdger

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:09:48 -0500
From: "Mike Eorgoff"

Subject: Re: Re: Propane safety



I have seen some type of broken hose cutoff device for grill tanks.

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:31:21 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Re: Propane safety



You might check with a RV dealer. They may have such a device in stock.

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 11:22:02 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Bar style trucks



I had forgotten about the realtrains trucks, thanks for the reminders.
They appear to have coil springs but it states they'll have leaf springs when they're available. I also quotes a price of $905 per pair, ouch!
They are RTR though so I guess that's OK. They don't appear to have brakes though.

The Maine freight trucks had wood beams and a single coil spring.

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:42:41 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



The leaf springs are already available and they WORK! I have seen them and its a nice opereable touch! As far as the 905 bucks, I have two pair of their 1.5" trucks and they are the best looking and rolling ones on my line.
They handle great amounts of weight and the roughest of track and hold!They are all CNC made and then black zinc coated. The finish will not scratch and is very durable. As far a copying the Maine style of trucks, you can buy the individual parts, and modify them with the wood beam and you can probably find the coil spring you are looking for in McMaster Carr catalog.

Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 02:58:58 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



A couple of comments on Arch Bar Trucks.

These can be made, very easily, with minimum materials (a bit of flat stock) for the bars, the journal boxes can be castings (either "home made" or bought) or hogged from solid (which I did for my tender trucks), don't need to be sprung (although it is nice if they "look" sprung). (you do need some "motion" to permit following dips in the track, but springing is "optional")

The first ones I made, I bent the bars in my mill vise, using a couple of v blocks "form" the bends as I wound up the vise ...... drilled all the holes in "sets" of bars clamped together.

I found "blocks" of aluminum to make the journal boxes out of ..... shaped to size overall (look like the real things) and bored holes (that I "elongated") with a end mill for the axels (steel axels on aluminum "bearings" works well) shoved a bit of cotton "below" the axel that gets oiled, etc. (I need to make some more trucks, and yesterday bought aluminum blocks that will turn into 32 journal boxes for $56 ($ 1.90 / lb).

I only have about $ 50.00 in each truck (wheels, axels, journal boxes, strap iron, etc.) for 2 1/2" scale trucks. (I was concentrating on cheep, so bandsawed the wheels out of 1" scrap plate). However, my next ones will be about $ 100 / truck, as I bought wheel castings for these.

The point I'm trying to convey here, is that you can work in the larger scales, trading time for money as best suits your means, this does not have to be an expensive hobby.

Regards,
George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 03:01:34 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Regarding springs:

Look at automibile valve springs, can be gotten for free from your local engine rebuilder / garage, etc. and are great for 2 1/2" scale, and may look OK for 3 3/4" scale.

Regards,
George Potter

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 14:13:58 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Hey, for once I have a proper referance with me here in FA. Maine trucks did not have single springs but two cast spring pockets at each end of the beam. And if my old eyes are not failing me the is a smaller spring nested inside each larger spring so you have a total of four, coiunt 'em , four coil springs per truck.

This from an unnumbered (on the portion of a print I have) Portland Works drawing "Frame for Flat Cars for The Wiscasset and Quebec RR" courtesy Maine Historical Society. This society has a large, uncatalogued collection of 2 ft. drawings - good opportunity for someone with a grant and need for a Doctoral thesis.

Oh to be in Sheepscot,Phillips, Portland Edaville (pick any one) to prove this statement.

Cam

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:32:08 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Maine Bar style trucks



WOW, good catch, I checked one of my Sandy River books and it looks like there are two springs per side on some of the trucks. I'm checking on another list to see if that was true on all the Maine roads.

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:35:28 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Home built Bar style trucks



Thanks for the input George, I had planned to make my own as well. The design is simple and it doesn't require any castings if you have access to machines. I was going to scale up some of the methods used in old Live Steam articles.

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:15:12 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Hi George,
How many of those cars (32 journal boxes /4 boxes per truck / 2 trucks per car = 4 new cars) will you be bringing to Train Mountain in August. I see from the TM online Registration list you will be bringing your woodburner. Great. I'm looking forward to seeing your big tender plus maybe a open box car or two in support of your run along those nine miles track at TM.

Looking in my special file of like to do projects etc. I found a nice article by Chester Sperry on how to build Arch Bar Trucks. Others may want to check out the July 1985 issue of Modeltec, page 36 and see a simplified way of making such trucks.

I have been using 2X2 steel bar for making journal boxes on my latest cars and using sealed bearings procured from our local Granger Industrial Products store.

Doug Wilkinson

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 21:33:09 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Hi Doug,

I'm hoping to have 4 new cars ..... 2 flats (with a straddle seat on each) and 2 box cars (so I can carry enough wood to make it around a time or two).

Some day, I hope to do a couple of passenger cars, but they are too fussy to even try to build before August ...... ultimately a true mixed train.

I'll dig out the Modeltec article, and see if it will help. I plan a new bending jig (I'm still working on desgin), etc. so I can mass produce these in only a weekend or two (32 wheels are partially machined right now).

Regards,
George Potter

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:49:12 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Maine Bar style trucks



I just got a confirming email from Gary Kohler that according to the 10 truck drawings he has ... all Maine freight trucks had four springs. There may be an odd one with some other arrangement but that's enough evidence for me.

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:15:53 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Bar style trucks PARTS



I heard a rumor that Rudy was going to offer his products again. How's it coming?

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 07:18:04 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Bar style trucks



Jeff;
How do you figure if in 3.75 scale 24 inches works out to less that 7.5 inches

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:36:58 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Bar style trucks



It's close enough for gummit work.

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:45:38 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



George,
Now, how will you transport all that equipment along with your locomotive up from Placerville?

There is another interesting article onArch-Bar and Utility Trucks by Bob Maynard in the November 1970 issue of Live Steam (page 9) showing a design for making a bar forming die for Arch Bar trucks. Bob calls it Production Line methods for 1 1/2" scale, although a person could certainly scale it up should they want to make lots of 2 1/2" scale or other intermediate size trucks.

I keep a Excel list of live steam & projects of interest & information index and there are a lot of truck designs available out there. The following is a partial and includes the two I have mentioned earlier and I suppose others might have reference to others.

Live Steam Nov '70, Jun 76, Oct 91, Sept 94, Apr 88, Jun 83, Jan 80,

Modeltec Jun 85, Apr 87,

Doug

Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:42:41 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



IF I get the cars done (which I hope becomes when I get the cars done) I plan to put the loco & tender in the bed of the pickup, then will be building a "mezzanine" about 10" above the pickup box (will sit on the edges, & be secured through the stake pockets) that will have 3 tracks, boxcars on the outside ones, and the flat cars stacked on the center one.

This will keep me out of many parking garages (big deal) and make me follow a big truck onto the ferry to Vancouver Island.

I don't have live steam mags back far enough for Bob Maynard's article ..... could I get a copy?

How many cars will you be bringing?

Regards,
George

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:07:27 EDT
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



To get good buy's on ball bearings, go to Bailey's in Knoxville, Tn. 1-800-800-1810. They are very much cheaper than WWGrainger co. I buy lots of things from both. Bailey's does have a $50 min order, but they have so much neat stuff that's never a problem.

Good luck

Jim Gould, Ann Arbor, Mi

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 08:21:41 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Re: Home built Bar style trucks



Reply To Stan:
I made my (unknown provenance) 2-1/2" NG scale archbar trucks using 3/4"x3/16" HRFB, with 1/2"x 3/4" guide posts and 2"x1-1/2"x.120" Rect Tube for the journal boxes. All bolted together a la prototype, but ran some welds on the inside to hold the JB's and the guides solid to the FB's, to keep everything square if the bolts loosend. The Journal Boxes were bored to nick the inside top, and both sides for the bearing guides. I put a tack weld on each side before boring to form a higher stop to prevent the bearing from migrating too far in. I was careful to center the bearing in line with the sideframe, so that it didn't cause the sideframe to tip, and bind the guides. I cut the bottom of the tube off, and welded a new, curved bottom piece that emulated the bottom reservoir of the cast boxes. The JB Covers werre 18 Ga sheet, hinged on a 1/4" x 1/2" long RB blob silver soldered
Howard

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:07:29 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Re: Home built Bar style trucks



PS to my reply to Stan Zdonick:
Stan: I bent all the bars using a die set made from a piece of 1-1/2" x 3/4" CR bar about 6" long with a notch milled 3/8" deep using a 1/2" dia cutter. From the sides, I faired out to the edge of the bar by eyeball, to about 45, and rounded the intersection with the edge. I made a male die from a short piece of 1/2"x 3/4" , with a 3/16" radius. Pressed each bend individually in my hydraulic press. Practice on a piece of scrap to find out how much bending allowance ato add. Incidentally, the bearings I used were No. 6201, double sealed. If your'e interested, I'll try to make a decent drawing out of the sketches I made for my trucks.
Howard Springer

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:27:42 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Reply to George Potter:
Boy, George, that'll be some consist in a pickup! Are you going to stop by KLS so we can see it before you unload? I just used my partially completed trailer yesterday for the first time, it's 81-1/2" wide between the fenders, and 18' long. - I think it should have been about 21 feet to carry 3 of my 2-1/2"scale ballast cars on each track. As it stands, I plan to carry 4 ballast cars (90"x20" inside) on the two outside tracks, with a 1-1/2 scale Gon loaded inside each one. They fit perfectly! I'll keep my loco in the pickup, as it's needed for ballast. Maybe, I'll put the tender on the trailer to give more room for tools and baggage inside. I have been thinking of a "second deck" such as yours, since the RR cars really don't tax the capacity of the trailer.
Good to see you in print - I lost the address you gave me last year.
Howard Springer

Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 02:28:04 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Hi Howard,

The load isn't all that great, since the cars (for my train) are under 6' long ....
the box cars should weigh about 150 lbs (not counting fire wood), the flats only about 100 lbs.

The engine itself is under 500 lbs, & the tender about 150 or so.

So ..... with all the other parts, I'll be under the 1 ton "limit" for the 1/2 ton truck :o) (my last full size truck didn't complain till I got to 1 ton, but this one really likes to stay under 1 ton).

Regards,
George Potter

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:43:41 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Bar style trucks



Think 3.6" scale, or a x0.3 conversion factor. or just fudge about for whatever loading scale you, or any track you might run on, will be comfortable with.

CB

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 15:54:01 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Bar style trucks



Watch the load rating of your tires .Up New York way the State Police are getting curious about trailer (not over the road semis) RV and mobile home weight where the tare weight of the vehicle is too close to the load rating on the tires. This without ice cubes in the fridge or underwear oin the drawer.

CB

Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:40:31 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Home built Bar style trucks



Sounds like something to put in the files section when you get around to sketching it. If you can scan it I can post it for you.

Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:58:42 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Y2K blizzard



Hi Folks:

I'm sorry if you get more than one copy of this. I've been off line since last Tuesday. You may have heard about the blizzard in the Black Hills last week. Well...it took out a couple hundred power poles, and the ones to our house were some of them. What Y2K couldn't do, Mother Nature could! We just got our power back today, and there are people farther out in the country who will be without power for weeks more. I was going to work as often as they'd let me just to get to Gillette so I could take a shower :-), the girls were showering in town at friends' houses. At any rate, now that we have electricity, and more importantly, running water, back, I'll attempt to catch up on my mail (there are 395 unread messages there). If you've sent me mail, or tried to phone, since Tuesday, I'll get back to you as quick as I can.

Thanks,

Mike Decker

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 02:04:59 -0000
From: Smallhand@aol.com

Subject: Speaking of trucks



A few years back, Live Steam ran article on "Econo-trucks". The trucks were 1 1/2" scale. My question to the experts is: What number(s) do I use to size up to 2.5" scale?

Raymond Hill
Orange County Model Engineers (CA)

Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:02:48 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Speaking of trucks



Wrong perspective, You size down YOUR prototype trucks to 2.5". 1.5" trucks are of a different prototype. They just happen to use the same track. Use the Live Steam article as a guide but measure from the real prototype.

Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 23:40:33 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of trucks



Oooh, sounds like a rivet counter mandating to scale down from prototype rather than up from a drawing the builder likes.

I would hope that our hobby is large enough to accept whatever is built since it is a hobby of fun. Other than my Mini Lucky 7, which was built to a very detailed design by the late Don Young, I follow the concept of building what is fun and what I like to do. Yes, I do suggest to some in reference to the question of what is it a model of, why of course, it is a caricature of a sugar cane locomotive. Yes, the rivets are oversize, the cab is too high and has a cutout in the rear portion of the roof (just right for me, a six footer, to see in the cab), the six inch steam gauge is too large (again another great find in a junk shop and has been recalibrated, and there is also a secondary backup steam gauge, the seat width in the tender is too wide (my own sit-me-down is wide), the whistle is not prototype (it is really a real antique four chime auto exhaust whistle from the early part of last century and has a great sound), the color should be black (I like my metallic green Lil Lima) and so on and so on. I love it though and it is a fun locomotive to run.

Those who hanker for their project to be an exact replica and have the desire to place it in a museum someday go for it. Please though, allow those who are just becoming involved in this great hobby have their day and build what their dream is.

Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:18:00 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Speaking of trucks



Raymond,

One way to accomplish what you are asking for is to multiply the dimensions shown on the drawings by 1.66 (1.5 X 1.66 = 2.49) which gets you fairly close. The axles and bolsters would need to be made so that the gauge would remain at 7-1/2". Otherwise the rest of the parts can be scaled up using the 1.66.

I'm assuming that the econo-truck was designed to represent a standard gauge truck in 1-1/2" scale. Usually 2-1/2" scale equipment represents 3' narrow gauge though, not 4' 8-1/2" standard gauge. So, we are mixing scales and gauges here. If you want to represent a 3' narrow gauge truck in 2-1/2" scale, 7-1/2" gauge, you would need to get a plan for a 3' gauge truck and scale from there. You could at least get overall proportions, such as wheel diameter and wheel base, and still build the trucks in the simplified manner of the econo-trucks.

Regards,

Jim Hoback Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 01:03:39 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Reposting of large burner for large locomotive



This is a reposting of a portion of a previous memo to give credit to Al VonRueden of Seattle, Washington, USA, who designed and built the Propane burner for Chris's Challenger (in process). The workmanship of Chris Hollands of Perth Australia on his Challenger locomotive and the fantastic Propane burner by Al VonRueden are a testament that great things are still happening in our hobby.

Doug Wilkinson

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 07:18:40 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Rivet counting



LOL! If you don't take the prototype into perspective you could end up with trucks blown out of proportion for your cars. They won't "look right". Jim Hoback explained what I was talking about in greater detail. I don't count rivets but I'd never put a 33" wheel on a Maine truck.

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:53:53 -0000
From: "Bill Oberpriller"

Subject: Re: Large Burner



What are the chances of seeing pictures of the rest of the locomotive?

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:02:36 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Speaking of trucks



Raymond,
I suggest building whatever you want. Nothing wrong with a little "kitbashing" to get the results you desire. A friend of mine is taking a Reading A-5a and turning it into a Maine Forney. Why? Because that's the he likes the Forneys and he had the A-5a kit on hand.
BTW
Multiply your 1 1/2" scale dimensions by 1.666666667 and you'll be pretty close to 2 1/2" scale.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:11:17 -0400
From: Arno Martens
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Speaking of trucks

>Other than my Mini Lucky 7, which was built to a very detailed design by the late Don Young,

Don Young's detail, not the prototype's.

>I follow the concept of building what is fun and what I like to do.

> the whistle is not prototype (it is really a real antique four chime auto exhaust whistle >from the early part of last century and has a great sound),


Wow, made before 1830 approx.

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:45:36 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of trucks



<< Wow, made before 1830 approx >>

Sorry for the misunderstanding. The whistle has a 1912 date on it. That is still early in the last century isn't it?

Doug

Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:19:27 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Speaking of trucks



No sir, 't'ain't. It's still in our present century, which ends 2000 31 2359 99.

Not to put too fine a point on it. ;->)

Arno

Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:08:01 -0000
From: "Ronald Knepp"

Subject: Large scale site



Hi,

One of the neatest sites that I have found is located at http://www.rmirailworks.com. They have taken a practical approah to buiding large scale equipment on 7+ gauge track. Check it out.

Ron Knepp

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:33:20 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Where is everyone?



I'd like to have someone explain to me how to go about posting a photo, and receiving the photos th at have been posted.
Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:20:03 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Flanges



List,

How are most of the larger scale builders (3-3/4" scale for instance) dealing with the flange restrictions of the IBLS standards for 7+ gauge? I spoke with one builder who said he uses 1/4" deep flanges which is over the 3/16" recomended maximum. The only time there would be a problem, as far as I know, is where the trackage uses milled flangeways in the frogs.

Just an opinion poll.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:21:11 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick" >

Subject: Re: Flanges



You have to use the flanges for 1.25" at my club.

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:40:13 -0400
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Re: Where is everyone?



Go to this site and add a folder for your files, the system prompts you for everything.

http://www.onelist.com/files/7-plus-NGM/

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:16:26 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Re: Flanges



The SR & CL Rwy is using scale profiles.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:39:19 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Where is everyone?



Working on right-of-way during the "free" daylight hours and building the "critter" at night. needless to say I've had to be very liberal with the delet key.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:28:43 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Flanges



At Adirondack Live Steamers we use cast frogs and thus can't handle flanges deeper than the 3/16" standard. BUT...we can handle both of the popular back to back dimensions of wheel sets.....the recent IBLS recomended 6 7/8" b-b and the long time popular 6 3/4" b-b. The 6 3/4"b-b will allow thicker flanges which are stronger. Whether aditional strength is necessary or not is another argument which I'm staying clear of on this occasion.

One of the conceptions of wheel flanges is they keep the wheels on the track. Yes, they do that but not to the extent a lot of people think. Most of the normal wheel guidance is via the taper in the tread. When necessary, the fillet will do the brute task of pushing the wheel back to center. If the flange itself ever comes into play it is because of gross misalignments such as at switch points on the diverging route. On a very long hi-speed switch the flange may support the wheel adjacent to the frog's point.

The way we handle the different back to back dimensions at a switch is to maintain the outside guardrail flange width at 1/4", the track gauge through the frog at 7 3/16", and the back to back of the frog and outside guardrails at 6 3/4". In other words, the stock rail with guard rail is moved out by 1/16" from the frog. This keeps the thinner 6 7/8" b-b wheels from picking the frog's point.

Hope this helps. If not clear let me know, I'll send you a drawing. Don

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:57:50 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Flanges



Re-reading this post I realize I should have included the fact that the frog's guardrail flange way is increased from the standard 1/4" to 5/16".
Sorry about that,
Don