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7-Plus-NGM Digest April 2003

Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:28:23 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Superelevation



Hi guys,

OK, here's a non-political subject, although it does have a slant to it. Has anyone tried banking their curves? I'm thinking just a quarter inch on 7 1/2 track; our narrow gauge equipment is more top heavy any how, even before I sit my scale tons on top. I lean in on the turns anyhow, like many of us exbikers. Any input?

Michael Lavrich

Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:00:26 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Michael,

1/4" may be a bit too much for 7-1/2" gauge. I used 1/4" on 12" gauge track and it seemed about right. Perhaps 1/8" + would be better for 7-1/2" gauge.

Regards,

Jim Hoback

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:01:48 EST
From: douglasandcj@aol.com

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Over the years I have found that about 1/4" to 3/8" super elevation is about proper with 2 1/2" scale equipment on 7 1/2" gauge track. The better maintained prototype narrow gauge pikes early on tried to maintain about 1" super with their slower operation and sharper curves.

Even though we are talking a minute amout of super that is difficult to maintain, the benefits of providing that super along with the spiral transition between tangent and the simple curve will prove to be beneficial.
It's not easy to maintain this slight amount of super in our hobby because of the changes in temperature, not protypical proportional track weight, our higher center of graviity and just normal movement of the track. On some of our more difficult curves the combination of super along with spiral transition provided benefits in allowing the equipment to make an easier transition between tangent and the simple curve and the difference in tracking quality is noticable.

If you think this is a non political item just watch the various responses.
As with all things controversial it becomes less controversial when one's focus is on improving his or hers operation by understanding what the true benefits are versus amount of labor needed to receive the benefits. Good performing trackwork in this hobby is like building a good piece of equipment and not building in permanent maintainence headaches. I've been aroound pikes that have to constantly work on their track correcting either alignment or surface irregularities on a regular basis and for years on end. There are proper fixes to most track problems and then one needs only accasional track tuneup to maintain horizontal and vertical geometry.

Doug de Berg
Rock Creek Railway

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:58:35 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Michael,
For back yard pikes with sharp curves, super elevation helps with tracking.
A good friend of mine built a track with 20' radius curves and without super elevation, he had constant derailments and binding on his curves. He raised the outer rail 1/2" on the curves and made a short spiral track section before and after each curve and his problems were solved.

Bruce Mowbray
7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:06:46 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



I think this is called "engineering in miniature".
I am sure the prototype railways don't go to the extra expense of spiral transitions, and slanting the track just for the fun of it. Now it is cute and p.c. to call it "super elevation". I call it banking. Even some of our highways are banked.
Remember how our model trains jerked at the start of the curves? And would run off the tracks too. Mostly on the curves. There are theoretical explanations for all that, which is why I went to engineering school. But that is another story.

Hey high school physics class wasn't as cute as that girl in the next row. But it has real applications. Like me those girls are old now too, but the physics seems to be the new discovery for so many.
"Life is a funny, funny riddle" (John Denver)
RK

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:17:22 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Cute and P.C. my a**. Merriam-Webster has the following...........

Main Entry: su·per·el·e·va·tion
Pronunciation: -"e-l&-'vA-sh&n
Function: noun
Date: 1889
1 : the vertical distance between the heights of inner and outer edges of highway pavement or railroad rails
2 : additional elevation


Superelevation is a common and correct term.

Cheers,

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:18:53 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Ding Ding....Circle gets the square!!!

Thanks Jim

Bruce Mowbray
7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 07:59:26 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Superelevation



Of course - it is possible the Dictionary is a P.C. document...

;-)

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:21:01 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Whoop de do.
I think most people will under stand banking better than super elevation.

JUST LIKE MOST WOULD UNDERSTAND TOTAL HEAT BETTER THAN ENTHALPY.
OR THE SKIVING ACTION OF A BENT TELEPHONE BOOK OVER THE TERM HORIZONTAL SHEAR. FOR THAT MATTER HAVE YOU MET YOUNG'S MODULUS LATELY, OR HOW ABOUT A MOMENT OF INERTIA.
WE COULD GO ON.
AND NO CHEERS.

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:26:53 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Think before you write.
Correct terminology is not the same a clear communication.

Care to throw around a bunch of engineering terms, and confuse everybody.
Next visit to the doctor have him explain everything in medical terms. Maybe that will feel better.
Now don't have a cardiac infarction when you read this. Oh sorry that's heart attack to most everybody.

I can see it all right now, another Webster's definition.
Bye

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:58:15 -0500
From: "www.On30.org"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Well, just to put my .02 in. I have never heard it called banking.
Banking is what you do at a Bank!

Pat Turner

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 18:00:19 EST
From: douglasandcj@aol.com

Subject: Re: Superelevation



It's quite obvious that many who responded negatively on superelevation don't know much. Real railroads use superelevation and have been doing so for over 125 years. Those of us who started in the railway end of life learned this simple little engineering skill at entry level when working on the end of a shovel or track jack in a section gang. Those who cant or wont try to understand the basics of life around us should just stick to bingo as you may be able to understand that type of simple language and how those kernals of corn work.

I would have thought that this was a serious medium for gathering usefull information and trying to understand how to make things work better. A smart person can learn a lot from others and not try to invent the wheel over and over still ending up with a lopsided blob. Boy am I surprised at the coamments thrown around, makes one wonder how to fire a steam engine, what types of fuel to use etc. I guess the information passed around is not worth much or is only worth a few laughs.

For those who think banking is right, they should just stick to hand writing checks. The two MAJOR terms for superelevation are superelevation and cant. Cant is used in the UK and parts of the world influenced by the English builders. Both terms are the correct definition of elevating one rail higher than the other.

Pity the poor person who asked for an explanation on superelevation and how or if he could or should try to make it work.

Doug de Berg
Rock Creek Railway

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:19:25 -0700
From: "Chuck Hoelzen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



All I know is that with level track the wheels run to the outside of the curve and the leading outside wheel drags on the flange. But with the correct amount of Superelevation the wheels track on the conical tred of the tire and I see little or no flange drag. This is most notable when I let the engine free wheel on my 400' of 3% grade. I don't think I would want to take the corner at the bottom at about 25mph without Superelevation!

Chuck

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:29:05 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Never drove your car around a banked curve?
Or watched bicyclists go around a banked curve?

Or how about a car race track with banked curves?
Of course an airplane banks into a turn. One meaning of banking is to incline into a turn.
ShalI go on and on.
I just let my dog out. He super elevated>>>>>
Oh what fun.
Reminds me, I need to go to the bank tomorrow.
I am told that English is a difficult language to learn. I guess this little exercise shows why.
In the meanwhile does anyone know anything about a Mr. John Van Riemsdijk. He has done design work for Aster locomotive boilers.
I am looking to find magazine articles written by him.

RK

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:43:16 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Can't you see any fun in all this. MY point is exactly your response. On and on about terminology. Relax, it ain't that important.
By the way shall I calculate the amount of super elevation needed for a specific center of gravity and speed? For the average Joe the term "banked" gets the idea across. The purpose is to lean into the curve.
Also the purpose of a spiral curve is to avoid the third derivative. The physical experience is an instantaneous change in acceleration. From no sideways acceleration on the straight track to suddenly having a definite sideways acceleration in the curve.

The engineering term is the third derivative, also known as jerk.

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:55:11 -0800
From: "Richard & Denise Killen"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Neither would you remain straight upright if you rounded that curve on a bicycle.
I think you would bank into the turn.
Of course every craft has to have its own terminology. So super elevation is a very precise term for a railroad. For the rest of the world, like those who build a track without S.E. the concept of leaning into the curve can be illustrated from experience in other parts of life.
Psst. When the newby gets the concept of leaning his locomotive and cars into the curve at speed tell him it is really called super elevation. He will instantly know he is now a member of the club.

Question. Is there another part of life for some of these who are just piling on this subject.

I need to get back to work.
You all have fun now comparing terminology.
Physics doesn't care what you call it.
Wonder what super elevation in Chinese.
Think it works the same over there as here in the USA,..Oh that will get it started.

Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:03:12 -0500
From: "www.On30.org"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Oh, I thought we were talking about trains. Am I on the wrong list?

Pat Turner

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 23:19:28 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Superelevation



In my terminology (ESL for 35 years) banking is what the object in motion does, superelevation is where it is doing it (yes, yes, yes, cannot EXACTLY be applied to a plane or the snow cutter with which we opened mountain passes in the spring).
--
Arno

Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 23:25:03 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Superelevation



No need to apologize.

As you are referring to terminology, I am surprised that non of the British members have explained to you yet that banking is the railway term for pusher service, as in pushing a train up the bank!
(Oh sorry, you don't understand that term bank, so it's "over the hill" for you ;->)). --
Arno

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:55:17 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Superelevation



Arno - and so it is in New Zealand as well and many other parts of the English speaking world once referred to as 'the empire'. As far as I am concerned A 'Banker' is a locomotive that assists a train up the 'Bank' (a.k.a. A 'grade' for our American friends) - not a locomotive on a permanent lean to one side!


Richard - I think you are out on a limb here mate - afraid your argument for common terms for everything ultimately leads to more misunderstanding than less as this example Arno raises underlines. As a self confessed 'newbie' - isn't learning the terminology all part of the fun?

Chris D

Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 04:59:49 -0000
From: "fredhaskey"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



What about 'banking' a fire in the firebox?

---john.

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 7:27:25 -0500
From:

Subject: Re: Re: Superelevation



Just goes to show you about railroad STANDARDS. The only standard is confusion.

mikell

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:47:26 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: Re: Superelevation



Off topic,
Here in Northeastern Pennsylvania, if you no longer need a particular item, it gets thrown "over the bank".

More on topic,
My late uncle was a civil engineer with the New York State Thruway Authority. We spoke often of his work. When he referred to the term "bank", he was referring to a man made stock pile of earth or a man made hillside, such as the ones found along the highways and biways. The side of a cut has "banks" as do the sides of a fill. Curves are "superelevated" or "canted" to neutralize the centrifugal forces on vehicle loads (passenger or cargo) at a particular speed for that curve.

Bruce Mowbray
7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 11:53:24 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Superelevation



Indubitably, but I did not want to confuse him an further.

Arno

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:05:19 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



Borrowing my granddaughter's e=mail techniques, let me put in my TCW.

Two Cents Worth.

Personnal feeling is that I really enjoy most of the little tangents we go flying off on.I suspect few of us go about wearing sackcloth and ashes. And the autopsies of technical terms and jargon is enjoyable to this too long out of school injinear.

And, really on subject (which is boiler water treatment) how many can give a concise explanation of the Langmuier Saturation Index? I do not know if I even spelled his name correctly.

Cam Brown
Two Foot Guru.

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 20:02:41 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: Steel strap track



Roy,
I was going back and deleting some emails and noticed nobody answered you question about prepping the ground for track. Here is what I do with some success. \
After figuring out where the center of my track will be, I cut two slices in the sod (grass) each 12 inches from the center line of the track. The using a pointed shovel, I make cross slices between the two lengthwise slices about 1 foot apart. This makes removing the sod easy. Just lift up one side and fold it onto itself and remove the whole 1 foot x 2 foot section. I like to save the sod for planting on the sides of fills and cuts. It saves a lot of dirt from being washed away and it works right away without having to wait for seeds to sprout and get established. After removing the sod, I make sure there are no roots or other large organic matter in the shallow trench. If this area of track is on normally dry ground, I tamp the dirt well, lay down a landscape weed barrier across the trench. Then I lay in about 3 inches of ballast and tamp it good and firm.
Now I check to see if the tamped ballast is level from side to side and along the track. If it's too low in areas, I add a little ballast and tamp again. If it's too high, I remove a little or I get real busy with the tamper. If the trench is in an area where the ground is often wet or soggy, After initial tamping, I dig an additional trench about 10 inches wide and 6 inches deep down the center and tamp down the bottom. Then I lay in my weed barrier, then a lay 4" diameter perforated pipe in the trench. Then I add ballast so there is 3 inches of ballast above the initial trench level. I tamp that down good and check for level and grade. If your track is on a hill side, make sure you have plenty of cross pipes to allow water to flow from the uphill side of the track to the downhill side. The next thing I do is lay down my track. I lay out my ties first then lay the rails and screw them home. This way I can alternate the joints. Then I add ballast up to the top of the rails and sweep the excess of with a "highway" broom (very heavy duty push broom). I have a T shaper bar that I use to tamp the ballast in between the ties. I check it for level and grade and adjust where necessary.
If there was anything I would do differently, it would be to use a 3 foot wide strip of landscape weed barrier. The grass grows right over the ballast and when it gets tall, it falls over onto the track. Other than that, my track works is quite stable. I just need to add a little ballast in the spring. One other thing I did was to buy a small backhoe (not necessary especially if you have young, able body persons helping). This makes sod removal very easy. I still use the axe to slice along the side of the trench as this makes for a nice clean edge.
I hope this helps.

Bruce Mowbray
7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 20:40:04 -0500
From: Kenneth Chenard

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



Cam,

I think your referring to the "Langelier" index an explanation of the (Langelier Saturation index) other indices, as well as some interesting information on corrosion may be found at:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/NaturalWaters/Langelier.htm

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/

Ken Chenard

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 01:46:38 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Vertical Curves



Everyone calm down, take a deep breath, forget the argument about superelevation, and tell me if there's any standards for vertical curves in 7.5" gauge track. I have a point where the tracks coming around my house will need to traverse my driveway. The driveway is on a fairly steep grade, and the track will need to traverse it on a 20' radius curve. I thought of cutting the driveway and pouring a shelf for the track, but I don't plan on staying in this house forever, so I'm worried about diminishing the resell value by putting a big speed bump between the street and the garage.
So I have two problems, one how to handle the sudden vertical curve as the track suddenly dives down the diveway on a 4.5% grade, and then how to handle the transition from that to the heavy negative banking as the track curves across the driveway.
I've thought about attaching rails of different heights to the concrete to solve the negative elevation problem, but I'm unsure how to handle the sudden dive down the grade.

Thanks,
Roy Stevens

Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 17:58:42 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Super elevation



Well, I certainly enjoyed all the responses, though I hardly could have done better if I'd intended to make something of the April First date of posting. I didn't title it banking cause banking brings little interest nowadays. Real Estate is better, at least around here. I did enjoy the terminology, as I use Brownian movement instead of a spoon to stir my coffee in the morning. I was surprised, though, to find out most English locomotives do not have a permanent lien to one side, as our US ones do (or did a few years ago) in form of a plate listing the bank which held the loco as security. Who was it said the British and Americans are two peoples separated by a common language?

All fun aside, thank you for the practical sharing of dimensions and experience. Using an engineering book I once calculated my outer rail would have to be elevated an entire inch to carry a train comfortably at 20 mph around a 75' radius, the equivalent of the mile a minute the SR & RL was said to run. This would obviously not work on a slow train when an inattentive passenger leans the wrong way. So I think I will settle on 1/4" and see what happens. After all, though this IS all set in stone, they be quite small stone.

Michael Lavrich

Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 23:29:11 -0500
From: Kenneth Chenard

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



Well Arno, Can't read a mans mind however Cam's subject was boiler water treatment and the "Langelier Index" is often one of the tools used to determine the potential for corrosion in circulating water systems.

The Langmuir adsorption model, "thank you Arno, I learned something new tonight" Seems to be used primarily to determine the adsorption by wetlands of Phosphorus primarily from farm water run off, a BS indicator you might say ;-) I'll hold with Langelier.

Ken Chenard

PS. Looking forward to spring ALS it will be good to se you again.

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 04:30:28 -0000
From: "bullfrog1311"

Subject: Super spelling



My spell checker suggested 'superovulation' in place of 'superelevation'. Now that's scary.

KC

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 06:53:46 -0000
From: "Jeff Badger"

Subject: 2.5" scale railtruck



Hi all, just posted a pic of the latest project out of the shop. A model "A" railtruck. Boy is this one FUN!

Jeff

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:34:52 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: Vertical Curves



Roy,
I think a lot of the final numbers depends on your equipment. If your rolling stock is very flexible in the trucks, and, not very long, a sharp vertical curve of say 10 feet would be ok. I wouldn't go too fast over these as you passengers may not be ready for the sudden change is gravity and centrifugal force and tip the train accidentally. If your rolling stock is long, over 7 feet, you will need to ease the vertical curve to more like 20 feet and make sure you have a section of tangent track between your vertical curve and flat curve to prevent coupler binding and twisting. Have you considered using a removable panel across your driveway? Or, perhaps a welded steel fabrication to make up the "speed bump" which can be lag bolted to the driveway until you sell your home? The lag bolt holes could then be easily patched. This fabrication could have flanged wheels on it so when you are not running your trains, it could be rolled up onto the track on either side of the driveway. Just some food for thought.

Bruce Mowbray
7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:21:17 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Track laying



Group;

When I started laying out the Browning Railroad here in Texas, I used the back blade of a small Ford tractor to scrap the top of the grass off, and then I laid about 6" of crushed limestone for base material. This I rolled with the weight of the tractor. I forgot before I laid the limestone, I installed a layer of "Black Plastic" for weed control.

After the base was solid and hard, I would then assemble the track panels that I had brought up from my garage in Houston, and then bolted every thing together. I tried to keep the rail joiner at least 9 ties apart from each other. BTW I was using 33 ties per 10' of rail panels. My ties were 2"X2"x16", to give it a narrow gauge look.

After the panels were bolted together, I would then spread my ballast, 3/8" by 3/4" (with some fines) limestone rock. I would then lift the track panels to have at least an inch or more of rock under the ties, for drainage purposes. The limestone ballast would be added until the rock was even with the top of the rail. Then I would start tamping the rock between the ties, to lock the track in place after the track had been leveled both direction. After tamping the track panels, the balance of the ballast was cleaned off the top of the ties, and was ready for main line service. At this point the top of the rail may be as much as 10" to 12" above the natural ground.

I started the Browning railroad in 1986, and laid over 2 miles of track, with over 78 switches in various places.

My railroad has been written up in both magazine, Live Steam and ModelTec, so if someone wants to see a picture of the track set up they may do so in these magazines.

David Hannah, III

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:44:26 -0800
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Re: Superelevation



Hi Chris,

I just wanted to let you know I greatly enjoyed your explanation of bank and banker. I didn't know that, and I love learning the English terminologies, made much more popular over here since the Thomas books. I have a 7 1/2" gauge Maxitraks Pearl 0-4-2, a little English industrial locomotive, so I often use the English terms while running her.

Michael

Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:28:52 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Vertical Curves



Hi Roy,

I had a similar situation to cope with, until I rerouted - but by that stage had given the issue a lot of thought. One of these may trigger a winning idea from yourself or others in the group:

1)Use a concrete saw or angle grinder with concrete cutting disk to let 30x10 steel bar into the concrete as the rails (I use barstock for all my rails let into wooden sleepers as previously discussed on this group) One rail let in almost completely, and the other mostly proud gave me a reasonable level route across the sloping driveway.
2)Cut a trench across the drive, lay the track at the ideal grade (in my case 300mm lower (1 foot)), and use a steel plate to cover and act as driveway when track not in use. When you sell, a simple concrete pour puts everything back the way non-railroaders would want.
3)If the ideal grade is higher than the nominal driveway height, perhaps a removable bridge-like span would work. This would certainly meet your objective of not touching the driveway
4)Make up the 'hump' as you describe, but use wood, not concrete, so it is moveable when not in use
5)Make good friends with your neighbor and route through his back yard instead!


Regards

Chris Draper
Winter Creek Tram
Auckland, New Zealand

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:21:10 -0800
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: 2.5" scale railtruck



Hi Jeff - -
I like your railtruck ! Where are you located? I thought I knew where you were, but came up a blank. Saw your Climax pictures in the "album" too - also neat. Is that a gas engine I see the corner of sitting in the cargo box?
Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:05:01 -0800
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Vertical Curves



To Roy Stevens:
Bruce Mowbray seems to have replied to your last couple of questions very adequately. I agree with everything he says. His suggestion of crossing the driveway on a portable bridge sounds like a good idea, altho I'm not quite sure if you will be crossing squarely enough to make it feasible.
If I understand your description correctly, you are going to turn onto the drive and run along it for some distance before turning off again ("- - - as the track suddenly dives down the diveway on a 4.5% grade,---"). Either way, I would strongly advise against any negative elevation of your outside rail. If you're forced into 4-1/2% grades, you had better think seriously about brakes and safety chains.
Howard Springer

Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:06:28 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: Terminology Definitions



No Problems Michael - I too enjoy learning the terminology idiosyncrasies of the hobby and prototype.

Someone earlier spoke of a Bank as being an earth fill. It would be called an embankment here, which I suspect is the case in the UK as well.

Whilst on the subject - Does anybody know when a 'bridge' becomes a 'viaduct', and is the definition universal, or vary from country to country?

Chris Draper

Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:32:11 -0800
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Re: Digest Number 751



Jeff,

That's great! I love it. Wonderful. Charming. Cute as bugs ear. Really fun. (and as many adjectives as it takes to get you to write and article about it!!)

-Greg

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:59:14 EST
From: bgwmoxie@aol.com

Subject: Re: 2.5" scale railtruck



Where is the pic?

Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:08:47 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fine! I'll try that again...



Here is ok' Cam again, thankful that someone corrected my spelling on the Langlier (did I get it right?) Index.

My heritage, training and what laughingly can be refered to as a career, has invelved heating ststems with a few attendant byways into power boilers.
Aside: Remember the old Marmaduke (not the curreny comic strip Great Dane) the engineer stories in Power magazine? I had one downside experience on a nursing home job. The water was hard and a large commercial water softener was provided. For domestic hot water we blended dead soft water out of treatment with cold water, untreared, down to about 120 d F. For the laundry the hot water, softened then heated was sentdown a stainless steel 302 ss plus or minus (copper shortage at the time) line which failed ctastrophicallyone day. What a mess.

As I understand ( or tud) it the L. index is an index of the corrosivity of the water. Dead soft hot water ain't good. All those dissolved and suspended carbonates are not bad per se if they leave a nice, firm, THIN coating on the heating surfaces.

This is the argument I am attempting to start,

Cam Brown

Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:56:54 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: 2.5" scale railtruck



Hi,

Where is the pic?

The pic is in the photo session, and also on our archive-page under http://www.7-plus-ngm.org/arch0403.htm .

Hubert from Germany

Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 12:22:13 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5" scale railtruck



I have a question about the track under the railtruck. The rail is shaped like rail, but it doesn't have that aluminum glow. I like it, what is it?

Roy Stevens

Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 18:55:27 -0400
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: 2.5" scale railtruck



Howard and others, I am located in Santa Cruz County, California. The railtruck is powered by a Honda 5.5hp electric start.

The rail used at the track is steel from Tom Miller's in Oregon.

Greg, since it only took three weeks to build this thing I did not take many progress photos. I will try to put something together for the 7+NG mag though.

Jeff

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 04:32:25 -0000
From: "bogienut12"

Subject: Propane Burner



I own a 2 1/2 inch scale mich-cal shay that I would like to convert to propane. It has a "T" boiler and the firebox is 8 inches inside diameter. Can someone provide a workable design and suggestions on valves and associated plumbing. Thanks

Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 22:31:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Baker

Subject: homemade Wheels?



Hi all me and a frined of mine want to build a track speeder that is lightweight and is light enough for two avarage built joes to lift but cant find any flanged wheels cheap enough that are 10-12" diameter so we where thinking of building some. any ideas?

possibly tire rims cut in half?

or wheel hubs with the axle cut shoter?

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 08:36:31 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Paul,
I assume you are building a speeder for full size track? Take a look at http://www.railriders.net/railroad_wheels.htm This might give you some ideas. Also, You could cast an aluminum center and shrink fit a steel tire made of steel pipe. The tire width doesn't have to be more than 4 inches wide and the flange could be welded or bolted on.

Bruce Mowbray
7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 09:49:37 EDT
From: Southern28016@aol.com

Subject: Re: Propane Burner



I have run a vertical boiler on a propane burner from a fish fryer. It is a cast circular burner. It worked quite well and was very hot. If you can find one large enough for your Boot style boiler you might want to try it.

Just a suggestion!

Take Care and Happy Steaming,

Cam

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 06:56:30 -0700
From: Geoff Kail

Subject: Re: Propane Burner



Try your local propane distributor for valving and regulator. I've found them to be very resourceful.

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:49:02 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Bruce,
thanks for that link.
I didn't know there was another sub-culture out there.

Arno

Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 19:24:21 -0500
From: "Phillip and Sherry Bell"

Subject: Re: Propane Burner



I also run my 2 1/5 mich-cal with a fish fryer burner. I made a plate with a ring of fresh air holes equal to the flue hole area. then another similar plate with the same # of holes, This one I rotate to open and close the air holes to fine tune the fresh air intake. I use a standard 3/8" one quarter turn gas valve I got at the hardware store. With that style valve, the handle indicates amount it is open, and I can go back and forth from simmer to full steam easily.
Phillip

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:11:38 -0500
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Propane Burner



They also have high pressure brake-away shut off hose couplers, at least the ones here in my area do. Thomas

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:01:53 -0600
From: "Chuck Hoelzen"

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



I have been fabricating my wheels from 8" pipe, 1/4 X 1-1/4 flat spokes and 2-1/2" dia bar stock hub. A flange of hot bent and welded strap. Chuck up and turn/bore in late. It takes a bit of time but not too bad. Just get the spokes .003" too long and force the assembly togeather before welding. You won't need any fancy jigs but a milling machine is nice to cut the spokes square and to length.

You may like to look at some drawing on www.trainweb.org/riverview

Chuck

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:29:55 -0400
From: Dwayne Miller

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



On this subject.... of homemade wheels...

I want to use this list as a sounding board.

Picture this:

A 1/4th" plate of steel the size of the inside of the final wheel, this will be the flange.

A 1/8th" plate of steel the size of the outside of the wheel. This will be the outside of the wheel.

Weld the larger plate to the axle. Using the smaller wheel as a template cut some sheet rubber, preferably fiber reinforced (I happen to live one block from a rubber manufacturer so aquiring these sheets will be VERY cheap for me).

Drill both plates to accept thru bolts, makign sure to drill/cut holes in the rubber rounds as well.

Assemble the rubber onto the axle, then the outside plate.

Install bolts, add nuts, tighten.

My ascii art is poor but here goes.



The rubber, should provide great grip on the rails, some shock relief, as well as wear fairly well and be TONS quieter.

keeping a few extra bolts and spare rubbers to replace on the fly, with just a jack and a few tools should not be that big a deal. If the rubber were to wear to the point where its off level when sitting.

No idea if this will work... anyone have any opinions? yea or nah?

Should cost about a buck a wheel for cars, I would strongly consider using these on motive power, simply for the traction increase.

If it matters, I am working in 1/8th scale, 7.5" gauge, and working on making some cheap cars, bodies and beds are easily made from scrap metal, the wheels are killing me tho.

Thanks,

Dwayne Miller
AKA:
Fallenhunter
Barberton, Ohio

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:34:53 -0700
From: Geoff Kail

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



You had better true them to the axle on a lathe or you are going to have a very rough ride.

Locomotivation

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:06:19 -0400
From: Dwayne Miller

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Ok, I understand what you mean, would you true the rubber on the lathe as well? And if so, what would you use to cut it? I assume that would depend a hell of alot on what the rubber is exactly.

Other than that, do you think it might work?

Dwayne

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:07:13 -0400
From: mrjcad@netscape.net

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Dwayne, I think he was talking about the whole thing. cutting the rubber may require a tool post mounted grinder thing'y -- like you said it depends upon the rubber. But the BIG QUESTION, will it work; don't know, make a set and try it out. You are only out your time, that plate won't mount to much. Take a bunck of pictures and let us know.

I don't have a source of rubber or I might give it a try.

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:34:31 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbay"

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Dwayne,
If you are looking for inexpensive wheels, why not go with continuos cast iron bar? It's less expensive than steel and easier to machine. And, you would have all of that assembly time and effort that you have with the rubber wheels. I made 80, 4 1/2" diameter wheels from a 6 foot long cast iron bar and the cost of material was $2.00 each. Dura-Bar is not far from you. They can even locate a distributor in your area.

As far as rubber wheels go, you need to use very hard rubber. If the rubber isn't hard enough, your large (compared to metal wheels) contact area with the rail will increase rolling resistance. Wheel slip isn't a bad thing, especially on sharp curves where one wheel must slip in order to compensate for the unequal distances that inner and outer wheels must travel. Also, once wet, rubber can be very slippery. Add a little oil to the equation and you might not have any traction at all.

Bruce Mowbray 7+" Gauge Livesteamer (and Dieseler)

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:45:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cobbeldick

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



The last issue of Grand Scales Quarterly (GSQ) had a very good article on manufacturing steel wheels for less than $7 a wheel.

All it took was some time and labor...

Mark C.
Monroe, VA (24" gauge)

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:40:56 -0700
From: Geoff Kail

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



That's a good question. What ever tool you use it will need to be real sharp to cut instead of taring the rubber. if you can get it true I think it will work as long as the rubber is slightly larger than your two holding plates.

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:58:41 EDT
From: radixauto@aol.com

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



The lathe tool to cut rubber looks like an inverted birds beak, the included angle of 30 degrees, attack the rubber at an angle of 45%. It will take a while to grind the tool. With this tool, the material will shave off.
Dave S.

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:05:35 EDT
From: douglasandcj@aol.com

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Rubber has good adheasion on dry rail. When the rail is wet or has on oil film rubber is totally usless. When I was running a motor car over 100 miles on a daily basis used in track inspection I usually put rubber wheels on in the dead of winter as the rubber helped traction on the dry snow, but when the rail had moisture on it from melting snow there was limited traction. I changed from rubber to steel usually on a seasonal basis but if wet conditions were prodominate steel was the way to go.

By the way, while paltrolling track with a motor car the days or hours that I worked became a lot longer. Usually the car would go through a couple of inches of snow above the rail but much deeper the going was tough. Many times I would start on my run after 8 AM and sometimes didn't reach my destination until late evening or worse close to early morning. Sometimes I felt that I spent more time pushing the car than riding on it. Many times I would set off and wait for a train to go by and then jump on the track and see how far I got before pushing again.

At any rate the hobbiest has the choice to run or not run when rail condions are questionable. Stopping is just as dangerous if not more dangerous on wet rail.

After several years of using motor cars on track inspection I was assigned a Hy-Rail truck. At first the truck seemed a whole lot better because of the warmth and being out of the blizzard or driving rain storms, but still had the same problem as the rail wheels only carried about 375 lb. each of the total vehicle weight and the rear wheels of the truck did the traction and all four wheels of the truck did the braking. Same problem with traction and stopping only a little more caution had to be excersized as you tended to be going faster. After several years of the two wheel drive pickup I received a four wheel drive pickup. A little better traction on starting and pulling but still couldn't stop any quicked.

I would never recommend putting rubber traction on locomotives, loss of adheasion with cars behind will make stopping that much harder. Sliding wheels whether on the cars or the locomotive don't stop as fast as rolling wheels under control. Starting a train on wet or oily rail will also be more difficult.

The only real benefit to using rubber wheels is noise control, and without the benefit of an controlled enviornment I'd rather have the little noise versus loss of adheasion.

Doug de Berg
Rock Creek Railway

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:19:04 -0000
From: "Mark Cobbeldick"

Subject: NNE Railsystems - Park Trains



I stumbled across this hidden website quite by accident. It lists park/recreational trains all over North America.

http://www.nnerailsystems.com/parktrains/parktrains.htm

Mark C.
Monroe, VA

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 20:56:45 -0400
From: Dwayne Miller

Subject: Re: homemade Wheels?



Ok, by this report, I should not even attempt this, as safety is a huge factor, I am working on a small gas powered loco that will be pulling one car, that my childern (ages 5-10), will be running. And as we spend the night at the track, they always want a ride before breakfast when the track is wet. So sounds like rubber is out.

Anyone have a view that disputes this theory?

If not, I am looking for other options... finding 4-6" round stock in my area has had no luck... besides I dont have a lathe... but thats something I am working on solving.

Thanks,

Dwayne Miller
M D & S Railway,
Barberton, Ohio

(M D & S: Mike, David and Samantha, my childern in order of age).

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 03:05:49 -0000
From: "n11525re"

Subject: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



I hate to interrupt with such an off-topic item, but I just have to know-
What happened to the Lucky 7 plans and/or patterns?!? Was any of this recovered or was this a total loss?
I'd like to build this one some day, and it seems it is never too early to start (though I am a shade late).
I wouldn't mind making my own patterns for casting some of the parts, as I have grown rather accustomed to the mess and dust of pattern making of late.
If I could at least find some drawings for some of the parts I could get a solid start before the pattern-making bug goes away. I'm on a pretty good roll now, and thought I might speak up before the fun fo standing/sitting in all that dust/debris goes away......

Thanks

Stan Rutledge

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:34:10 -0600
From: "Chuck Hoelzen"

Subject: Turning rubber homemade Wheels?



Having done some rubber turning, all you need is a sharp lathe tool and a LOT of top and side rake. Keep a good bit of front clearance and make the cutting edge about 45 degrees. You can expect a good bit of spring back and the edges will have even more spring than the middle of the cut.

A 4" angle grinder held in a simple mount works well too.

Chuck

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:01:20 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Here is what is in my cluttered brain re Lucky #7 parts:

Cluttered brain cannot come up with name - YES it CAN! The Street line originating I think in North Carolina, were reported to be consummed in the Power Models fire. I recall a NewJersey outfit, Pine Tree PLantationss perhaps, were offering castings. The MAY have ended up with a chap named Schiavo (sp/) also in NJ but I can't recall hearing anyhing about this source for several years.

Somewhere in my northern archieves (stuff) are oddments of part drawings that I'll make available to anyone who wants to whittle out new patterns. Anything to keep the two foot gauge balloon aloft. I'll supply unlimited amounts ofhot air.

With recent 7+ NG chatter about Baldwin Shop Drawings in this or that library, since Baldwin made (no insult intended) Erector set locomotives, some drawings of parts made especially for the later, larger engines like B& SR #7 and SR&RL#s 23 and 24 (throw in #10 as well) must still be extant.

For some of the ealier engines the City of Portland, Maine museum has the uncataloged files of the Portland Company.

Labor of love. Good luck.

Cam Brown

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:31:05 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Hi folks:

The construction series ran in the middle to late '70's in Live Steam. I don't remember when-to-when, but I did a little article and drawing of the difference between #7, #8, and SR&RL #10 just before we moved to South Dakota, in 1977. Don Young's series is a valuable resource, especially since it includes detail photos taken at Edaville. Some of the smaller parts are probably in Bill Jenson's drawing book on SR&RL #23, (out of print, and I don't know where to get another copy) I remember he did note when a common part was used on other Maine locos.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:12:12 -0700
From: "LR-N"

Subject: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Power Models is gone, Mercer is gone... the two sources of castings I used for SRRL 24 & 10. I've heard rumors of a source of Don Young castings in England, and have a mate in Australia who has found some appropriate castings there.

The premier builder of SRRL 24, Dave Skagen of Shelton, WA used some of Power Models castings, in particular the drivers & cylinders for his 24, but most everything else he fabricated. Dave has patterns for making a working air pump.

The Mercer/Train Tree castings were not the quality of the Power Model castings. After Dave Sclavi (Mercer) went out of business the 24 patterns were returned to Train Tree Ranch in Lumberton, NJ.

The whole Mercer/Sclavi/Hickory Ridge fiasco left many unable to obtain castings to complete projects.

Hickory Ridge seemed to get off to a good start, full color full page ads in Live Steam, then they promptly failed, too bad.

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:29:47 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Another possible source of plans/castings is Reeves, , in the UK. I believe they took over the late Don Young's products. They don't currently list the Lucky-7 items but there is a contact address at their site. They may have something for Lucky-7 collecting dust on their shelves.

The series by Don Young starts with the January 1977 issue of Live Steam. It goes for about 2 years. Great plans and article although I have read at one time or another there are some few glitches in the plans.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:42:24 EDT
From: SZuiderveen@aol.com

Subject: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Drawings are available from E & J. Winter is Australia and from Reeves in UK Winter only has about half of the castings in stock at present, the rest will have to wait for the next batch to the foundry. I do not know the situation at Reeves, but I would bet it would be a cast-to-order situation there.

From E & J Winter

L123 Maxi Lucky 7 7 1/4" gauge
Plan set 19 sheets $483.79
Casting set 49 items $1839.87

(Oz $$'s, and I think some of the castings will end up costing more)

http://www.ajreeves.com/home.html

(No pricing online)

Steve Zuiderveen

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 07:35:16 -0700
From: "LR-N"

Subject: Re: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



At the current exchange rate the plans and castings from E. J. Winter are a bargain! Even with the shipping that is less than Power Model Supply was charging.

Linc

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:57:53 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"

Subject: Re: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Reeves have no pricing in their latest catalogue, either.

Peter

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:39:57 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Group - -
I have a friend who has a complete set of Lucky 7 plans (apparently both Mini and Maxi.) In Seattle, no less. He built a "Mini." - I don't know where he got his castings. If the person (I lost his original message) is TRULY interested in pursuing this matter, I'll try to get him in contact with my friend.
Reply to hdspringer4@attbi.com
Howard Springer

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 07:42:45 -0700
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Re: 2.5" scale railtruck



Jeff,

Sorry for the delay in responding. We were out of state for over a week. Great . . . I'll look forward to whatever you can send. It will make a great little article.

All the Best,
Greg

The Grand Scales Quarterly
7+ RAILROADER
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:32:03 -0000
From: "solarbake"

Subject: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



check out this link to see new pics of live steam lucky seven pics just type in

groups.msn.com/edapix
once loaded click on 1.5scale lucky 7
pics at left hand bottom coloumn
hope these help you

Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:04:26 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Re: Off Topic- Lucky 7 current situation?



Or, just click http://groups.msn.com/edapix/simonhphotos112scale7.msnw

Good photos of a nice model.

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:27:02 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Speeder update



Hello all,

a couple of minutes ago I uploaded the newest version of my website about the construction of my speeder for the Train Mountain Triennial.

You can find it under http://www.7-plus-ngm.org/pcr/speedere.htm

Thank you for your interest.

Hubert from Germany

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:54:32 -0000
From: "Andrew"

Subject: Valve setting...



Hello Everybody,

Okay the title says it all. Walchaerts valve gear. I can find the Tdc and Bdc easy but in both of these positions the expansion link should be in the middle of its swing and thus in the same position. Someone last year told me how to do this, and I printed off the answer and put it somewhere safe... Can someone tell me again... please.

Thanks a lot everyone.

Andrew

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:46 -0000
From: "k36no4862002"

Subject: Re: Valve setting...



OK What exactly do you need to know.
Have you set the eccentric crank yet?
Have you made the eccentic rods yet?

The way I timed the K36 eventually was to work out the movement required for the valve and set the eccentric crank.

Once I did this I marked TDC and BDC on the piston rod (so I got it exactly the same every time a simple small punch mark)

Then find the position on the expansion link where you can put it in full forward and move to full reverse and back without the valve rod (valve) moving.

Assuming you have made the eccentric crank to the correct lenght and the the diameter is correct (pitch circle) the distance between the expansion tail and the postion on the eccentric crank should be the length of the eccentric rod. When at either TDC or BDC. Might be worth making an adjustable rod first!

There is a book called 'So you want to build a live steam locomotive' ( think thats what it's called)It tells you exactly how to do it. Its a good investment.

I hope this helps, It's a lot easier with a book or somebody who has done it before.

Good Luck

Paul

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:20:53 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: (Forwarded) Re: [Livesteamers] Re - Ontario Miniature Trains Exemption



Michael Guy asked me to forward to this group his complete post as sent earlier to the Livestemers mailing list.
Arno

On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:20:24 -0400, Michael Guy wrote:

Folks,

Just to keep the record quite straight, AMES and Lawrence Howard did not work alone these last two years in trying for a way out from the regulatory dilemma.

Uncounted hours were spent by elected representatives of:

Ottawa Valley Live Steamers & Model Engineers,
Golden Horseshoe Live Steamers,
Richmond Hill live Steamers,
Frontenac Society of Model Engineers,
Toronto Live Steamers Society.

When it seemed an exemption to the regulations was not possible we collectively wrote a Guidelines for safe practice document and negotiated a workable deal with the TSSA that would have seen passenger hauling continue without the necessity for expensive licences and permits. This process took more than eighteen months of work and meetings to achieve.

After this deal became unworkable due to exorbitant insurance increases becoming likely if it was implemented we all worked anew towards the Provincial Cabinet exemption order which has now just been granted.

Michael Guy
Toronto Live Steamers (TSSA rep.)

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:00:36 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: [Livesteamers] Re - Ontario Miniature Trains Exemption



What should not be forgotten is our additional face to face meetings with the TSSA as well as the multiple clarifications and definitions which were sent back by the Ministry to the TSSA this year, until we managed to complete the end run.

Dennis, with all the political pressure exerted by all of us the Ministry did not allow the final step until it was sanctioned by the TSSA. The TSSA in turn conferred with us until by mid March we came to a mutually agreed wording, after which the Minister informed a select few in writing that the exemption process will be moved forward shortly.

At the time you were asking in Livesteamers we were in a particularly sensitive negotiation stage thus my giving you the short shrift then.

Arno Martens
Richmond Hill Live Steamers (TSSA rep.)

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:38:19 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: Valve setting...



the trick is to rotate the ecc. crank on the crank pin so that the ecc. rod fits the tail pin hole at both dead centers. if the ecc. rod hasn't been made yet use dividers to test the length needed then make the rod.
Martin Evans books describe the process too.
good luck,
fred v

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:36:04 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Train Mountain Triennial 2003



Hi List,

Just a friendly reminder that the 2003 Train Mountain Triennial is less than 60 days away. With over 700 registered participants so far, this is really going to be a great show. There will seminars and clinics from many of this hobby's leading authorities, all of the major vendors will be displaying their wares, and of course the Guinness Book Of Records "biggest Hobby Railroad' in the world! Now over 25 miles of 7 1/2 in gauge track and still counting! Check it out:

http://www.trainmountain.org

Hope to see you all at the 'big one', June 21st - 29th, Chiloquin, Oregon.

Russ
Chiloquin, Oregon