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7-Plus-NGM Digest May 2000

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 03:48:09 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Where is everybody?



Hey Guys -

How come the big silence? Nothing since ms. 271 on April 28th; surely you people haven't run out of steam this fast!

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 00:07:29 EDT
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: Re: Where is everybody?



Hey Rudy,

Say something controversial and see what happens! LOL!

Jim Gould

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:10:43 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: 2' Guage Ties



List,

What is the size of the average 2' gauge tie such as used on the Maine 2-foot lines?

Thanks,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 04:06:05 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: RE: Flanges



Don:

I don't think the flanges are as unimportant as you seem to think.
Certainly, the taper has little or nothing to do with keeping the wheels on the track, as many people in the hobby ignore the taper entirely and machine flat wheels; they are common at LALS and track just fine.

The taper is crucial on the prototype but of less importance on our small diameter light weight wheels. The function of the taper is to allow the wheels, which are locked to the axle, to present a larger diameter to the outer rail on a curve, which has a greater linear length than the inner rail (<pi>D). This reduces skidding of one of the wheels on a curve, thus reducing rail wear, wheel wear, and rolling resistance on curves.

A good part of the "flange squeal" heard on tight curves on the prototype is caused by wheel skid, not flange rubbing.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:22:05 -0700
From: "Turner Family"

Subject: New to list



Hi all, I just joined and I am talking with RMI models about a D&RGW #50 switcher. I am also interested in building a truss rod flat car and a C&S Bobber caboose. Any one know of any 2 1/2" scale plans of either of these?
Would a "Mountain Car" Bobber caboose truck be a good starting point for a 2 1/2"' scale C&S bobber caboose truck? Any good pointers for someone new to this scale. I just got back from Apex, N.C. live steam meet and had a great time, and now it is time for some trains of my own (no need to always run someone's else's trains).

Pat

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 04:44:47 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Colorado Narrow Gauge Plans



Here's a good source for Colorado Narrow Gauge plans: http://www.colong.com/

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 08:26:42 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: RE: Flanges



Rudy,
why do you tell Don that the flanges are "not as unimportant" and then don't say a word about your perceived importance.

In the same train of thought, it reminds me of the HO days where the huge NEM flanges always climbed the rail and the wee RP25 fillets kept them nicely on track!
Arno

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 08:29:03 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: RE: Flanges



Rudy, I think you said nearly the same thing I did (grin!)

Anyway, next time you have a chance, ride behind a taper treaded hopper car and watch the wheels. Most of the time their slowly hunting back and forth from fillet to fillet, even in curves. Every once in a while they touch a flange. Then observe wheels with no taper. There is a constant but gentle bumb from flange to flange, and in curves they stay to one side or the other. Also, after a day of running compare the tread of the tapered vs non-tapered wheels. Which one has the more shiny flange? True, the loading is many, many times less than the prototype would experience, and our small equipment will still run fine, but it is still there. The original post to which I responded concerned how big a flange one could get away with which is arguably too big for the track structure we use. I was pointing out my thoughts on how to live in a 1 1/2" world with 2 1/2"+ wheels. Flat wheels and flanges may work well with some equipment but if you want little argument from the 1/8 guys, give yourself all the ammo you can.

As an aside, I believe the flat wheel theory was developed as a means of increasing traction back when the rail had a flat running surface. It's been a while since I saw any of that, most of the rail produced today has an arc which limits the amount of contact a flat or taper wheel will have. A test of the two with controlled conditions might be a fun and interesting thing to do sometime. For that matter, a test of wheel flange importance might be even more fun and informative. Too bad we live a continent away from each other. I'll bet the truth is somewhere between our positions on the subject.

By the way, the boat goes in the water next week.....the offer is still there!

Having lots of fun,
Don

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:29:47 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 26



Hey mark peterson....wow , thanks for the site on the plans collection! it is just what I have been looking for....Steam up!
Dave B

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:38:26 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: Colorado Narrow Gauge Plans



Mark,

Know of any good sources for plans for other railroads, or rolling stock in general.

Ben

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:49:35 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: New to list



Welcome Newbie... a few years ago, Live Steam magazine ran a construction series with plans for a "Big Bobber" Caboose. I believe it scaled out to 2.5 - 3". It was 20 inches wide as I recall. Now I will have to look up those back issues and get back to you.
You won't go wrong on a RMI locomotive. They are the best for the money I feel. As far as other pointers, get Modeltec and Live Steam. Keep going to the tracks, meet all the Live Steam folks you can, help out by building track etc, and learn about all the manufactures, and search the internet. There are deals to be had for the ones who keep on top of all the bulletin boards such as this one. Last year I purchased over 1100 feet of rail for 1/4 the price of new. I now have a railroad! Yes it sure does beat running on someone elses and with their equipment.

Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:34:41 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: New to list



Pat -

Welcome to the 7+NGM! Conway Locomotive Company and Como Roundhouse Products both have parts for 2.5" scale cars; journal boxes, queen posts, coupler pockets, etc.

Write directly to dmmcomo@socal.rr.com and we will send you catalogs.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:47:00 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Re: RE: Flanges



Perhaps my wording was unclear; but I was more concerned with the misconception that the taper was crucial to keeping the wheels on the track.

At JT&S we have developed our own flange (LMB001) which is almost an exact scale prototype flange. The improvement in rolling quality and reduction in flange wear is dramatic; similar to the improvement seen when the RP25 profile you mention was introduced to HO/HOn3 scales.

Como Roundhouse Products sells a flange cutting tool for the LMB001 profile.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:56:34 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: RE: RE: Flanges



Boy, I've gotta quit writng this stuff late at night! In my earlier reply to Arno I forgot to note that our LMB001 flange meets all IBLS standards, just as the old "finescale" flange met the existing standards when it was introduced to "O" scale.

Yes, I am sure we are tracking the same line of thought; and no, I am certainly not advocating flat, untapered wheels. The fellows who are advocating deeper flanges are flailing about in a swamp that has already been explored.

Will address the deep water issue in personal Email but am committed to Rhode Island this summer!

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 09:04:06 -0700
From: Allen Dobney

Subject: Re: New to list



Pat:

Although I am still fairly new to 2.5" scale, I have been constructing a C&S bobber caboose over the past year. It is complete except for the roof and some details.

I used the Mountain Car bobber trucks. The need some minor modifications since the C&S caboose wheelbase is longer than the Mountain car model. Also Como Roundhouse detail parts are excellent for this car.

As far as plans, I took a drawing from a Grandt line On3 kit. I blew it up on a copier to 1/2" scale. I could then take dimensions from the drawing multiply by 5 and get a dimension in 2.5" scale. Since then I have created a 2.5" scale ruler from a metal yard stick.

When I get my garage cleaned out, I will be taking a few digital pictures of the caboose and make them available to this list.

Also one of these cabooses is on display at the Colorado RR Museum and is a excellent source of detail information.

Allen

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:07:14 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Re: RE: Flanges



Rudy.....just thought of the only exception to the "locked to the axle" rule that I've ever seen. Back in the 1980's I spent much time consulting in the San Francisco area and had a lot of weekend time on my hands. It didn't take long to find Eric Thompson and his Redwood Valley to keep my out of trouble. He seemed to welcome free labor if there was a positive net effect to his operation. One of the things I learned from Eric, a railroad track engineering consultant, was the fact that one wheel of each set on all his rolling stock (not the engines)had a bearing between the axle and the wheel while the other side was fixed as usual. He claimed this nearly eliminated all rail and wheel wear and decreased the rolling resistance through curves!

Don

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 10:19:59 -0700
From: "Turner Family"

Subject: Re: New to list



Pat:

>Although I am still fairly new to 2.5" scale, I have been constructing a C&S bobber caboose over the past year. It is complete except for the roof and some details.

I would love to the pics when you get them.

> I used the Mountain Car bobber trucks. The need some minor modifications since the C&S caboose wheelbase is longer than the Mountain car model.

Yes, I know that a new truss rod is needed. Did you use the Mountain Car wheels and axles or who's did you use?

Also Como Roundhouse detail parts are excellent for this car.

Already have a catalog, thanks.

> As far as plans, I took a drawing from a Grandt line On3 kit. I blew it up on a copier to 1/2" scale. I could then take dimensions from the drawing multiply by 5 and get a dimension in 2.5" scale. Since then I have created a 2.5" scale ruler from a metal yard stick.

Thanks for the ideas, 1/2" scale times 5. That sounds like the easist to do and I will work on a ruler.

>When I get my garage cleaned out, I will be taking a few digital pictures of the caboose and make them available to this list.

I will l be looking for them.

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 10:44:12 -0700
From: Allen Dobney

Subject: Re: New to list



I used the Mountain Car wheels & axles......Allen

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 15:47:39 +1200
From: "Hansen-Hill"

Subject: Fw: Plastic Ties



Re: Plastic Ties
Seeking advise

The local LS want to re-tie with recycled plastic. They heard that LALS has used it. What is LALS and others experience? What are the Materials being used? Where are they sourced? Guidance, Please.

Thanks, Gordon HH

Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 3:25 AM
From: Rudolph P. van Wingen
To: Hansen-Hill
Subject: Re: Plastic Ties


Gordon -

Suggest you join the 7+NGM (below) and restate your question. By far the biggest user that I know of is Quentin Breen of Train Mountain RR Museum in Chiloquin, OR. I have heard that he gets the tie stock they are using from Canada. It would make an interesting exchange of information for the 7+NGM, and you will probably get more sources than you can use.

Feel free to quote me if you wish.

Rudy van Wingen
JT&S RR Vice President
dmmcomo@socal.rr.com

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 12:49:30 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Fw: Plastic Ties



Here's the Train mountain info, you can search the message archives for more, look for trex or plastic ties:

Stan:

At Train Mountain we use a 2" x 3" x 8' recycled plastic material which we cut into 16" lengths for railroad ties on our 7 1/2" gauge railroad. It has been very satisfactory. The same material in different dimensions is often used for decking. The manufacturer claims the material has a 500 year life.

Quentin Breen
Train Mountain

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:26:25 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Go to:

http://www.trex.com

I've seen this stuff . . . it looks great and will last forever!

Curtis

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:39:28 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



This was taken form my web page and it gives my views on recycled plastic ties:

Why I'm Using Recycled Plastic For Ties

1) Plastic will last forever. I live in an area where the soil is mostly clay. Even though I have a lot of ballast and drainage around my track, the ground stays moist. Since this is my personal track, I did not want to replace any rotted or split ties....ever. I have seen pressure treated wood ties rot out after 6 years. Sooner with ties that were ripped from 2x6's as this opens the "less preserved" center of the board to moisture. Ripped plastic ties are unaffected in this way. The plastic is also UV stabilized and is unaffected by the sun.

2) Recycled plastic ties will not split, warp, crack, check, expand, or shrink when driving screw in place or at any other time. In fact, the plastic holds screws better because plastic will not shrink and expand with moisture, therefore causing the screw hole to become loose fitting (like old furniture). Plastic has no grain or knots like pressure treated wood. Both of which reduce screw holding power. No worry about putting nicks in the grain which allows moisture to enter regular wood. Plastic is unaffected even when nicked.

3) Cost. I payed 54 cents each for my 2"x2"x16" ties. This may seem a little high at first but remember reason 1? I will never have to replace any ties. Not only is this a material savings but a labor savings as well. For reference, a quality pressure treated 2"x4"x 8' costs $3.50each, cut into six, 2"x4"x16" ties, it would cost you 58 cents per tie. (Savings??)

4) Size. My 2"x2" ties are a full 2" by 2". Not 1 1/2" x 1 1/2". I like to build 2 1/2" scale equipment and these ties are a little closer to my scale. They also give a good support "foot print". I use 3 ties per foot which allows a 2" space between each tie. Its easy to tamp the ballast in this size opening and the ballast performs well.

5) Holding Power. Not only do the screws hold well in the plastic, but the ballast holds the ties tight. Since the plastic is soft, the sharp, 3/4" crushed rock that I use for ballast "bites" into the ties when tamped providing a good stable track.

6) Recycled plastic is good for the enviroment. By using recycled plastic, not only do I reduce land fill burden (it takes about 300, 2 liter soda bottles to make one, 2"x4"x12') the recycled plastic dosen't leach harmful carcinogens and arsenic into the surrounding ground. It is perfectly safe to work with. No worry about breathing toxic sawdust or absorbing nasty chemicals through the skin when handling.

In addition to the above reasons, recycled plastic lumber is very easy to work with. I am using a fast cutting, carbide tipped saw blade to cut the ties. A little spray of silicone lubricant on the blade between cuts helps to keep the plastic chips from sticking to the blade. I am pre-drilling the screw holes, used for rail attachment, at an angle (see photo below) to increase the contact area of the washer head sheet metal screw allowing the rail foot to slide under the head of the screw instead of cutting into it. Pre drilling will make "on site" track building easier. These ties are very heavy and a ten foot track panel would be next to impossible to move single handedly.

BTW
Trex will not last as long as recycled plastic lumber. Trex has wood particles held together with a plastic base. I have seen reports on Trex and it does rot. Not as fast as regular lumber but it does rot. Recycled plastic lumber as I am using is solid plastic. It is guaranteed forever. I bought mine form a company called Everlast Plastic Lumber in Hamburg, PA. They are very friendly and I'm sure they would be happy to give you a quote as well as answer your questions. Be sure to ask for factory seconds when asking for prices. These only have color imperfections which make them below perfect standards saving you about 30%.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:58:44 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



It's a good thing you said something Bruce . . . they told me it was a permanent solution at the lumber store.

Curtis

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:57:54 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: Fw: Plastic Ties



Bruce,

What about the color of the plastic lumber. Is it wooden color? Plastic lumber I have seen is available in white. Does it weather or do you have to paint it?

Ben

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 20:27:35 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: RE: Fw: Plastic Ties



Ben,
I bought my lumber in a medium beige/light brown color. A shade of sun faded oak if you will. This color closely resembles the local Ex-Lehigh Vally main line ties. Since I purchased non-perfect lumber the shade is not exact from board to board. This was the reason the lumber I bought was considered to be factory second. I was told by the manufacturer that the color will not change with time. The plastic lumber from my manufacturer is available in grey, black, white, green, brown and custom colors or shades of the standard colors can be made if required. I think even a blue is available as I saw some blue boards around when I went to pick my load up.
These may have been a custom run??

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 20:50:51 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: More Narrow Gauge Plans



Well, now that you mention it...

Here's great source for plans that have been published in the various Model RR Magazines: http://www.index.mrmag.com Its searchable by Road, scale, etc. Check it out sometime and you'll probably be there a couple of hours.
So you say, great the plan I want is in a 1982 issue to Model Railroader, now what? At most Model trains shows I've been to, someone is selling old magazines. Also don't forget your local library. Most subscribe either to something like Model Railroader or they can order back issues though inter-library loan or on microfilm. (Live Steam used to be available this way too, I don't know if its still offered that way.) Another Option is to check the classified ads in any current model railroad magazine to see if anyone is selling any back issues. Lastly, there's ebay.com. They have a section dedicated to both Model Railroading and Old Magazines.

Also, don't overlook one of my favorite magazines, The Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette. They have multiple plans every month from all different Narrow Gauge Roads. When you decide to build those 2.5" scale D&RGW Gons, here's a good place to find and article or plans on the subject. (In fact they ran a detailed series of articles on this subject several years ago.)

The Garden Scale folks are often into narrow gauge as well, You'll find some 1/2" scale plans listed in these occasionally and they'll scale up easily.

Have any friends in the smaller scales? If they build craftsman type kits, you may be able to get a copy of the plans from something they have built. Grandt Line has done some terrific work in multiple scales.

Now for my soapbox. Those of you that enjoy using CAD programs. Isn't it time we all quit doing the same work over? How much time are we wasting redrawing something someone else has already drawn? What I propose is an Internet depository for CAD version of 2.5" scale plans in a common format like DXF. Once started, its something that could be built upon. This is a common practice in several other internet groups I participate in, where the group builds upon each others work. Any thoughts folks?

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 20:26:20
From: Ian McKinley

Subject: Re: More Narrow Gauge Plans



Hi Mark

Nice soapbox. I agree with your proposal except. Well..... I have tried this several times with DXF files on the net and from members of several other lists and none have imported in to my CAD program. 8-( I really have not learned to use my CAD program to draw with yet but had hopes of using it to at least view other peoples plans. I am using KEY CAD Complete for Windows 3.x. If any one could recommend a CAD program for DOS or Windows 3.x that will import these files I would appreciate it.

Thank You

Ian

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 22:50:27 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: RE: RE: Flanges



Gee, Rudy,

this is the first time I hear that Rhode Island is an institute!
Arno

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 23:05:17 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: More Narrow Gauge Plans



Congratulations, Mark,
to your new job as curator for the 2.5" scale CAD archives. ;->)

Ian,
when I save a Deltacad file in DXF and then open it in Turbocad I do not get what I had drawn.

It appears that DXF is not the answer for a true interchange of CAD work.

Arno

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 20:22:50 -0700
From: Don Dickens

Subject: Re: More Narrow Gauge Plans



Gang,

"It appears that DXF is not the answer for a true interchange of CAD work".

How about someone stick up a DXF file for others to test on their CAD programs

Don Dickens

Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 04:00:01 -0000
From: cmsteam@avana.net

Subject: DXF file in Files



Hi all, I placed a .dxf file of a brass whistle that can be used in several scales. A nice project for a small lathe. This was generated in AutoCad R14. AutoCad owns and controls the .dxf format. It has changed over the years and a lot of other Cad programs have not made their .dxf conversions fully compatable. Your not alone if it does not open correctly. AutoCad offers free a dxf/dwg file reader and printer. If this is a total bomb for everybody I will post it in .gif.
Rich D.

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:31:17 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Fw: Plastic Ties



White? If your modeling RGS equipment it's perfect! The Rio Grande Southern never used creosoted ties. I know, never say never, but all that I've read over the years indicates they used untreated pine and oak.

Don

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 05:57:47 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Fw: Plastic Ties



Trex is real wood mixed with plastic, it will weather, it can be stained, though not as well as regular lumber. Most folks just let it weather to a greyish color.

Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 06:51:42 -0700
From: Don Dickens

Subject: Re: DXF file in Files



Rich,
Draft Choice for Windows (DCWin) imported your drawing without any real problems. The labels might need editing (lots of percent signs) but useable. I downloaded the drawing to my Download files and then pulled it up from DCWin. I've been a Draft Choice user for years and feel no need to change. I don't know if the try-out version available for download includes the import feature. CAD is not an easy thing to get started into no matter what program you use.
Don Dickens

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:23:26 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: DXF file in Files



I had no problem with the file in IntelliCAD, a freeware CAD program. I could also view it in Paint Shop Pro. I would suggest writing the file in an older version of dxf to allow more programs to open it. There were some radical changes to the format between 12 and 14. I usually downgrade to version 12 before I send to people. Just my 2 cents.

NICE drawing!

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:44:38 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Re: RE: Flanges



Hi Rudy and Don:

Eric got his inspiration from Sir Arthur Heywood's 15" gauge railways. Sir Arthur had one wheel pressed on the axle and the other was a "running" fit.
The backs of the axleboxes kept them in gauge.

Mike Decker

Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 22:45:26 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: RE: DXF file in Files



Could someone remind me how to find the file referenced below?

Thanks,
George Potter

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:01:55 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: DXF file in Files



Hi Rich:

I downloaded the file and opened and printed it in AutoCad LT 98. Works for me.

Mike Decker

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 07:54:41 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Files url



Go to http://www.egroups.com/files/7-plus/NGM

and look for Whistle-02.dxf

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:59:46 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Narrow Gauge DXF files



Well it sounds like we're off to a start. I'm not sure what the maximum size that egroups will allow, but until we find a better home perhaps we could keep drawings at our egroups file. I am currently working on a business website that I hope to have up and running this summer. I may be able to convince them to let use their site for a more permanent depository.

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:08:51 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Narrow Gauge DXF files



We have 20 megabytes of storage available, this should last for quite a while.

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 13:08:05 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge DXF files



Mark,
I tried to open the DXF file with my old Generic CADD (for the Mac), which was subsequently bought out by AutoCAD and then quickly discontinued, and it would not recognize it. Too bad. I do have some nice CADD files that could be shared.

Doug

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:30:27 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge DXF files



Hi Doug:

I still use CADD6 when I want to do a quick drawing. It's a nice program, not as fancy as A-C LT, but a lot easier to use and print from. You can export .dxf's, but I haven't tried importing any. When you export, you have to explode everything on the drawing, enough times to get the text to explode into lines and arcs, so that it comes out the way you drew it. Even then, A-C LT changes some of the linetypes, but it's readable. Try one and see how it comes out.

Mike

Decker's Trains
Rt. 1, Box 102-E
Hot Springs, SD 57747
605-745-5487
http://www.gwtc.net/~mdecker

Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 14:21:34 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: RE: DXF file in Files



I used my downloaded version of Turbo Cad 2D and opened it (Whistle02.dxf) with no problem. I did have to zoom in on it to get it big enough to read. I wouldn't consider this a problem.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 19:26:03 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Barry Hauge of Superscale



Several of you have written to me directly questioning the absence of Barry Hauge of Superscale from the NAMES convention.

I have just spoken with Barry and am pleased that all is well! He skipped the NAMES convention due to having a low inventory and workload in his shop. He is well along in the development and production of a working air brake system and is concentrating on that for the present.

Barry tells me that he intends to make the Memorial Day meet at LALS and intends to be at some of the IBLS 2K functions, certainly Train Mountain. So, save your money and get to those meets if you want to drool over Barry's usual table of live steam jewelry!

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 19:37:39 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Flanges and free wheeling



I've known two fellows that have built equipment with free wheeling axles. Bill Divine of the 1" scale 4.75" gauge square boilered "MECLAB" locomotive that ran at LALS for so many years in the 60's and 70's, and Nils Sandstrom who worked for Bill and still runs his South Side Rapid Transit "Chloe" at LALS both put bearings in their wheel castings and let the axles just go along for the ride.

Their cars were and are among some of the best rolling I have ever seen, and wheel "wobble" was and is not a problem.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 21:18:11
From: Ian McKinley

Subject: Re: DXF file in Files



I was unable to import the whistle file but that is nothing new for this program. I just need to fine a program that will work on my older computer.

Ian

Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:35:27 -0700
From: "Bonville"

Subject: Wheels and Ties



Hi all,
Sorry I haven't jumped and said any thing until now, and yes this is my first time to join in, well here goes.

Regarding the wheel issue:

1) The taper in the tire tread is so the wheel set will go around curve without slipping causing damage by creating divots in the rail head and causing flat spots on the tires tread, Theoretically.

2) When you see empty cars going down the tracks and the trucks are "hunting" it is caused, as I understand it that the car is designed to be moved with a load and it is a mechanical problem when unladen. Modern railroading has re-opened the science of wheel contour and railhead contour. For instances; LA transit has been experiencing excessive wear issues, so we may see a new design for both wheels and rails, sometime in the near future.

3) Flanges are tapered back for curves. I'll try to explain it: First, take your longest "Fixed / Ridged" wheel base and your sharpest curve. Now place that wheel base on that curve and you will see what minimum taper is and I'm sorry, but I'll can't find the formula for wheel taper, but a rough guess is not more than twice that angle.

4) Now for fillets, most fillets are cut to match the radius of the railhead. And this is where we can have problems too small and the flange can literally break away, too large and "hunting" occurs.

How this affects the hobbyist, well; I have worked with wheel treads that have no taper and with over-radius fillets and short flanges with no more trouble than if one copied prototype. But, unless you are only going on tangent track, make sure your flange is tapered.

Ties:

The SVLS has in the past used ties made of Redwood, unfortunately, redwood in ground and in moisture decays quickly. ( check out a farmers redwood fence, you will find that just below the surface, it's gone.) Back to main line operations, companies are reclaiming old ties and grinding them up and adding plastic. At present the accelerated life test have proven a tie with better holding power and a longer life span. The Trex material is from saw dust and plastic. The wood component adds flexibility and some thing to drive your fasteners into. The plastic is what binds every thing together. Back to SVLS, some of their track is subject to high moisture, so as an attempt to address the issue, the use of plastic ties.

I hope what I've shared is helpful. I tried to skirt the trackwork issue, since I could be writing about it for pages.

Curtis

Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 04:03:46 -0700
From: "Turner Family"

Subject: Thanks and Plastic Ties



While sitting on a bench today watching trains go by (my job as a RR conductor) I noticed that it was made of plastic wood. The bench also had the name and number of the company on it, here it is: 1-888-85 EARTH. I think the company name was Earth Products? The wood/plastic was a nice dark brown (good for ties) and the bench was made out of true 2" x 4" wood/plastic. Just another company to try for ties.

I also wanted to take this chance to thank all of you who replied to my questions on C&S bobbers and other stuff for a newbe. I got a lot of great hints, tips, ideas, thoughts and information as well as some pictures.

Thanks, Pat

Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 08:50:40 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Wheels and Ties



The "BIG GUYS" are recycling their ties and adding the plastic as a binder. They are also re using the creosote which gives the wood part of the ties some resistance to bugs and rot due to water entering the tie. I saw a web page of the process of recycleing the ties recently but can't seem to find it...I'll keep looking.

Back to main line operations, companies are reclaiming old ties and grinding them up and adding plastic. At present the accelerated life test have proven a tie with better holding power and a longer life span.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 09:35:30 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Wheels and Ties



Hi Folks:

I hope the recycled plastic/wood ties are more forgiving than concrete. I burned off a journal on a coal train the other evening, and the concrete ties don't take kindly to having the truck frame on a 130 ton car of coal bouncing along on their ends. :-) The concrete ties are shelling out anyway, and some of the ends are just breaking off in service. I doubt that the Company will install any new concrete ties on the coal corridor. They are trying out a mile of steel ties on the new triple track South of Reno, though.

Mike Decker

Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 12:39:18 -0500
From: Jim Keith

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge DXF files



Stan:

Are you using IntelliCAD 2000? If so, does it have capability to accept a scanned raster image file for displayed as an CAD overlay. This would be a nice starting point when creating a (prototype or model) drawing in DXF or DWG format from an existing drawing? .... I believe AutoCAD has this feature.

Jim Keith

Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 10:59:08 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Narrow Gauge DXF files



yes and yes, oh, and it does 3D, did I mention it's free?

Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 16:08:02 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: DXF file in Files



Rich,
Deltacad turns all symbols to %%c.
It did not show dashed line but turned the into solid ones.
90% of the dimensions do not show/print out.
Arno

Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 16:23:03 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: DXF file in Files



Stan,
my IntelliCAD says that I'm a registered user but my help file does not open.
When going to the Help folder and trying to open ICAD_GLOSSARY.HLP it tells me the inetwh32.dll is missing in the Windows\System folder.

Checking with MS it tells me:
INETWH32 DLL 35,328 05-01-98 8:01p is part of the W98 CD-ROM.

I'm using W95 OSR2

Does anyone else have problems with the help file?
Arno

Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 00:15:56 -0000
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Western Rails Unlimited?



Anyone know if Western Rails Unlimited is still in business? I have been to there web site (http://www.westernrailsunlimited.com ) and it has not been updated since Feb. '96. I have tried to email them and got no reply? I have tried to call them and their phone # is no good? Do they have a new #? I know that RMI Railworks is now making the Davenport they had. Has someone else taken over the rest of their line (cars, trucks & parts)?

Pat

Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 21:22:41 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Expert Track Advice



Hey all:

For those of you who are getting two of these . . . my apologies. I have a friend on the east coast who is designing a 15 or 19" gauge railroad (for tourists.) He has asked me to ask your for some help in finding someone who has a particular expertise in track laying. He is looking for someone who really knows how to do this well. He has told me on several occasions that he wants his railroad to have A++ track work.

So if any of you know of anyone who could give such expert advise please let me know and I will forward the information on.

As always thank you for your help and A+ advise!

Curtis

Curtis Hustace
214 F. Rogers Lane
Dixon, KY 42409
812-453-0217 (Mobile)
270-639-6930 (Home)

Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 23:45:39 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Re: DXF file in Files



Arno,
the Dia symbol (slashed zero) is created in Acad with %%c, oddly enough! I will post an R12 version and a .gif pic.
Rich D.
PS.. how did you do the dia symbol in this message???

Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 21:22:56 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Western Rails Unlimited?



Pat,

Some months ago I spoke with Steve Easlon. He had just sold his home in So. CA and was moving to Alturas, CA to be involved with a railroad training school there. I thought he was going to continue his line of products but obviously has sold (?) at least the #50 product to RMI. He may have gotten rid of the complete line.

You might try a Yahoo search for Steve in Alturas, CA.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 08:40:15 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: DXF file in Files



Rich,
don't post an other file as I had no problems printing it out from Turbocad. I do very few drawings and if I do, I used Deltacad. I D/L Turbocad when it was mentioned in the livesteamers letter but I don't like it. I D/L IntelliCAD when it was mentioned in February but haven't played with it.

Remember, this thread started by my statement that not all programmes show all the details when importing a DXF file.

The or come from the MS Character Map that has been included since the first Windows programme.

Arno

Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 19:38:53 -0400
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Re: Western Rails Unlimited?



I did get a reply for the webmaster of the Western Rails page. He said that there is a new catalog in progress and should be ready to go out soon. I don't know what he ment by soon? He did not say when the web page would be updated either. http://www.westernrailsunlimited.com

Pat

Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 22:02:33 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Whistle Drawings



Hi all,
I have created a folder:
Whistle Drawings
________________
1" Brass whistle project drawings

and added an R12 file and a .gif for those not up on cad stuff too well.
Have fun,
Rich D.
--
\\\\
(@@)
ooO_(_ )_Ooo________________________________
_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|
___|____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|_____|____
_____|_____ Keep Smiling - - RD |___

Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 22:18:15 -0700
From: Hugh Smith

Subject: Re: Western Rails Unlimited?



List,

Steve Easlon, and Western Rails Unlimited, are indeed alive and well in Alturas. As Jim said, the D&RGW 50 has been sold to RMI. The cars, however, have not been sold. Steve is still building cars to order. The web site is also alive and well, my computer is not. It does need to be updated and will be shortly. You can continue to e-mail steve at Sales@westernrailsunlimited.com or call him at (530) 233-4679.

Thank You
Hugh Smith
Webmaster

Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 11:35:26 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Expert Track Advice



Curtis,
Where in relation to PA is this friend? I may not be a expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. If nothing else, maybe someone I know, (full size railroad track engineer) might be able to help.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:02:37 -0600
From: Mike South

Subject: Calling 'Titan' Diesel Owners..



I am seriously considering purchasing a 7 1/2" gauge 'Titan' 0-4-2 Diesel locomotive built by the English firm of Roanoke - see their website.

The 'Titan' locomotive is powered by a Lombardini 15LD 315 7.5 h.p.
diesel - see:
TITAN-DIESEL

I would be most interested to learn of others experiences (either on- or off-list) with either this specific locomotive or make of diesel. My concerns are mechanical reliability (particularly in our cold, northern climate - it is snowing outside as I type and it is May, for heaven's sake!) and ease of maintenance.

Also, if anyone has had experience of importing similar items into Canada from the UK, I would be pleased to hear of any 'import tax mitigation' strategies that they have successfully and legally employed and any advice they might want to offer on shipping procedures and experiences.

Many thanks!

Mike South
Calgary, Alberta, western Canada

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:33:57 -0400
From: Bobber

Subject: TRAINS4FUN



Fellow Model Railroaders:

A few special people may be interested in my newest mailing list at Egroups: "TRAINS4FUN"

http://www.egroups.com/group/TRAINS4FUN

To subscribe: TRAINS4FUN-subscribe@egroups.com
To post a message: TRAINS4FUN@egroups.com

TRAINS4FUN is an internet forum for railroad hobbyists in all scales to discuss operating trains for fun, without slavish concern for prototypicality, geographical correctness, exact scale, precise gauge or rivet-counting detail, the key words being "operating" and "fun".

Today, many model railroaders may be active in two or more different scales, from tiny Z to big ride-ons, and some have graduated from running in endless circles, ovals or loops to more challenging point-to-point operations with several control centers to involve multiple operators.

As listowner, I enjoy modeling in 1:87, 1:48, 1:24, 1:20 and 1:13 scales and I own several fullsize twofoot gauge industrial critters. In all my operations, I try to incorporate lots of switching action to involve several friends/operators and we usually wind up a session by laughing about the problems and the interaction it took to solve them. It does not bother me if the scale, rail size or track gauge is not perfectly correct because the fun of operation is uppermost in my mind.

Subscribers are encouraged to discuss their own railroads or their plans for a future railroad so that others can share their visions for operation and perhaps incorporate some new ideas into their own plans. Perhaps I'll finally get started on the four-car O scale rotary dumper that I've been thinking about.

We're talking OPERATING and FUN here folks.... overly-serious scale modelers and nitpickers may find themselves unwelcome and there are plenty of other mailing lists out there that might be more appropriate for them.

Tell your fun friends about Trains4fun. The more, the merrier.

Bobber Gibbs

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:09:57 EDT
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: (unknown)



I seem to have been dropped from the list. How do I get back on?

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:22:50 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: (unknown)



If you sent this and you're getting it then you are already subscribed. It just seems we're all busy working on our railroads.....well are'nt we???? and too busy doing that to chat on the computer

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:38:24 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: (unknown)



Caseyjones:
It appears that you are still on the list
Don

Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 22:21:05 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Group:

I am back from the Amazon and Macchupicchu. Both the rain forest and the Inca ruins are wonderful.

Having posted the IBLS 2000 registrations that came in while I was gone, I can now report that there are over 500 people and 150 engines registered for IBLS 2000 at Train Mountain this coming August. See list attached.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 03:49:04 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Re: Plastic TiesPlease tell me where and when this IBLS 2000 at Train Mountain is being held.

Thank you

Sharon Deckard

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 08:59:55 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Absolutly nothing to do with 7+NGM but I am inspired to tout my current bedtime reading to a just returned visitor from Brasil (note spelling): John Grisham's "The Testament". Great detail on all the wonderful wildlife, bugs and diseases endemic to the region. Check about halfway through for all the symptoms of malaria and dangue (sp?) that I trust you are not experiencing. Our Brazilian exchange student daughter lived in Corumba and her then vet husband doctored cattle herds in the pantinal (again sp?-huge swampy region the size of Colorado). Best story that Grisham could have used was about water skiing and tubing on the Paraguan River (yes, sp? again) noted for it's high incidence of paranahs. While floating down the river, on or in a tube, the little rascals would nibble on your pendent bottom. Considering the coverage offered by the standard Brazilian string bikini (packable in a matchbox with room to spare) how can one fault the fish?

To pull everyone's thoughts back to the subject at hand, have you all seen,bought, borrowed or stolen "Brazilian Steam Album - Plus and Minus Two Footers" with great tales and pictures of NG, and super standard in later volumes? My favorite is on The Tramway Canteraira out of Sao Paulo,one of the busier commuter railroads in the world. Known as Maria Fumaca or Smoky Mary for the holes burned in the passengers clothes from the embers from the wood burners, this line hauled 8 million passengers in 1945 not bad for a 2 footer. OK - 60 cm. Great pictures of little Baldwins that with other choices on the Philidelphia erecting shop, might have ended up in Maine. And being scrapped sooner. Great pix of a Henschel, square the cab window and round off the steam dome and she is a Baldwin, two foot Mountain type, Which brings to mind: Baldwin built some long leggeded 2 ft. Decopods for a coal hauler in South China of which I have heard nothing in years. Any scoop?

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:43:40 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Sharon:

The IBLS 2000 meet at Train Mountain will be held August 25-27 at Chiloquin, Oregon. Go to http://www.livesteaming. com for full information.

Tom Keenan

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:11:38 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: IBLS 2000



I read your registration information with great interest, 48% of the engines are live steam. I recently attended my club's annual steamup and saw only 3 live steamers on 7.25", 1 on 3.5", and two on Gauge 1. (I brought one of the gauge 1 engines.) There were a vast number of gas and electric engines running on 7.25" as well. It seems that the live seam hobby has made a shift towards gas/diesel/electric in much the same fashion as the prototypes. Since I'm new to the hobby I was wondering how long this trend has been going on?

I don't see this as a bad thing, it brings many people into the hobby who might not be able to afford or operate a live steamer. I will probably build a gasser before I venture into 7.25" live steam myself. I'm just making an observation that's probably obvious to most of you.

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 07:27:00 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE:Decopods



I visited a web site the specialises in Chinese railways. They showed the two-foot Baldwins in a storage shed presumably ready for scrap. Go to http://severn.dmu.ac.uk/~mlp/metre6.html to see pics.

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:01:06 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Sharon:

IBLS 2000 is being held at train Mountain August 25 to 27. There are open houses from August 15 to 24 and August 28 to September 4. We expect to see a number of narrow gauge engines. For full details see the Train Mountain web site at www.halcyon.com/dfm/tm.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:24:34 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Amazon



Cam:

My advance reading for the trip consisted of two books. The first was the Grisham, which was totally accidental, in that I just happened to buy the next Grisham as it came out in paperback before the Amazon trip. Nonetheless, it was an excellent preparation for the trip.

The second was intentional, having been recommended by some academic friends. The Sea and the Jungle, by H.M. Tomlinson, available from The Marlboro Press/Northwestern, ISBN 0-8101-6011-0. It is one of those long slow reads in the Victorian tradition, but gives a real flavor for the Amazon.

For a railroader, the test of a really good book or film is that it has a connection to railroading. The connection for this book is that the purpose of the trip by a British ocean going freighter up the Amazon is to deliver a load of Welch coal to a railroad being constructed around a series of rapids which made that portion of the Amazon un-navigable.

If you ever visit Macchupicchu, be sure to take the narrow gauge railroad from Cuzco to Agua Caliente. It is a charming ride.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:25:52 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Fw: Plastic Ties



Tom:

All i got from your posting was "yp."

Quentin

-----Original Message-----
Date: Monday, May 15, 2000 6:47 AM
From: Tom Keenan
To: 7-plus-NGM@egroups.com <7-plus-NGM@egroups.com>
Subject: Re: [7-plus-NGM] Fw: Plastic Ties

<

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 10:43:34 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: RE: IBLS 2000



Stan:

We have noticed the same thing. I attribute it to two factors.

Twenty years ago the typical member of the hobby was a machinist who was happiest when building an engine. When he finished an engine, he would run it for a couple of years (just the engine, not a train), get bored, and build another engine. This hobbiest grew up in the age of steam and was "imprinted" by steam.

Today, the typical hobbiest does not have the machining background. He or she grew up in the age of diesel and carries that imprint. Ready to run diesels and electrics are available from a number of manufacturers. The common power plant for a 1.6" gauge engine is a Vanguard 16, 18 or 20 HP engine. This means that an engine can easily pull twenty cars up the maximum 2.3% grades at Train Mountain.

This has led to another change in the hobby. It is not a hobby of engines any more, it is a hobby of trains. At the September 1999 meet at train Mountain, the majority of attendees were pulling trains, not running engines. Having bought a ready-to-run engine, the energy is going into building cars. And, it sure is nice to see those long trains.

Look at the attendance list and note the length of the trains coming to train Mountain for IBLS 2000. Attached is a list of storage tracks and trains which gives you the same information in a different format.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 12:08:14 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: IBLS 2000



WOW! You are going to be busy folks for this event! You'll need a full staff just to coordinate traffic flows in the peak afternoon hours. How do you handle safety issues with passenger loading/unloading on this many trains? My club has one siding for loading/unloading which creates a bottle neck but it's a safe bottle neck. Your list shows many sidings for loading/unloading. Are they controlled access or open affairs? Do you require operators to sign a safety check-off list with your standard procedures? I assume you must have a very large club to staff an event of this size. Too bad it's on the wrong coast or I'd attend.

Stan

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:33:03 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: Train Mountain video



This email is directed to the train mountain members of this list.

I went back to the Train Mountain site, saw the Cyber Ride On Train Mountain link and got all excited until I clicked on it. The page has some very nice pictures but I was expecting a video. I use a product from Alaris to compress video when I need to send some via email. It will compress a minute down to just over one megabyte. This is the best compression I've seen for video. No, it's not broadcast quality but it's good enough for web casting. The company is at http://www.alaris.com , I have loaded a sample video in the files area at : http://www.egroups.com/files/7-plus-NGM/7.25+vs.+7.5/ the file is called superman.exe. NO, it does not have any virus embedded in it, it does have the player embedded though. As usual I have no ties to Alaris,no stock, no nothing. If you send me a file I can compress it for you. Files without sound and the embedded player take less space. I can also convert your stuff to .mov or .mpg format if you want. I REALLY want to see the video,that's why I'm offering to convert it for you.

Stan

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 18:00:03 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Train Mountain video



Stan,

I have been playing around on the web for a couple of years and so far none of the video will work for Train Mountain. I certainly can do the 1 minute snippets as I have done for others on their web pages. The shortest Train Mountain video I have is 1 1/2 hours, the current video loop is just over three hours. I think that is a bit much for video streaming! :o) What I'm working on now is a beta version of some software from MicroSoft on a new product that will let me animate the slides alot like a PowerPoint presentation but over the web. It's still very buggy and sloooooooow, but they are working on it. The nice part is you can upload the graphics seperate from the presentation so uploads should be fast and play back should be fast depending on the server. Anyhow thanks for the comments. I would love to give everybody a sense of the grandeur Train Mountain, I am hooked, hook, line and sinker! :o)

Russ

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:12:05 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: IBLS 2000



Nice analysis of the present day hobby. Guys 9and gals) like to run trains.Ther seems to be a reluctance to become entralled (enraptured?) with the arcane art of ruinning a steamer. It's too much work and scares many people off.

Pity. Cam B

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 22:53:59 -0400
From: brotherbob@mindspring.com

Subject: Re: RE: IBLS 2000



Lets not forget the cost difference. I would love to run steam if I could afford to.

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:51:37 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Safety at IBLS 2000



Stan:

My observation has been that most of the passenger problems at train meets arise from the fact that most clubs are hauling the public at train meets. Because train Mountain owns its own facility, there is no obligation to haul the public as a condition to a lease from a public agency. Therefore, by definition, passengers are members or guests of members. There are no members of the public present at any train Mountain event.Almost all passengers are members of families that have 7 1/2" gauge trains or are used to riding 7 1/2" gauge trains. Passenger safety is the responsibility of each engineer.

However, there are Rules of the Road for train operation which are posted on a very large sign as trains leave Central Station. These are reprinted in the Train Mountain Enclyclopedia, under Rules of the Road, attached. In addition, all trains pass an inspection station just past the Rules of the Road sign. The inspector follows the procedures set forth in the Inspection station entry in the train Mountain Encyclopedia. For example, the inspectors looks to see that there safety chains between all cars, that there are both an engineer and conductor for each train, etc. While this does not make the process absolutely fool proof, it has worked well. The only injury that we have had in thirteen years was a child bitten by a visiting member's dog. That is why we have a "no pets at train events" policy at train Mountain.

To be sure, it takes a lot of people to co-ordinate an event like IBLS 2000. We have 100 volunteers who have completed an IBLS Volunteer Form, a copy of which is attached. In each area, unloading, turntable, dispatcher, etc., we have one person who has taken responsibility for that particular operation and who schedules the respective volunteers. We believe that every volunteer will be "on duty" about two hours a day. Still, the complexity is the reason why train Mountain will be doing this only every five years.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:54:22 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: RE: IBLS 2000



Cam:

What is interesting is that after buying a gas powered engine and building some cars, the non-machinists become fascinated by the steam engines they see at the meets and step up to purchase an existing steam engine and learn how to operate it.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 20:56:43 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Engine Cost



All things come to those who wait...and plan.

Quentin

Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 21:01:36 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Train Mountain video



Stan:

I am forwarding your message to Russ Wood, the author of Cyber Ride. I believe that he used a digital camera to take the individual shots. Therefore there is no video to compress. Perhaps the two of you can figure something out.

Quentin

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:00:53 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Thank you

Sharon

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 04:50:22 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: where in the world is Train Mountain?



Try http://www.halcyon.com/dfm/tm or you could go to Chiloquin, Oregon

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:51:06 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Why Not A Steamer was IBLS 2000



I think if we allow more people to run our steamers that more people would relize how much fun it is with all of it's realistic character, the smell of coal smoke and steam oil, the bark of the stack on a grade, the hiss of steam, the cinders in your shirt etc. Yes the steamer can be a lot to look at and they do look quite complicated and to build one of your own seems like a major task. BUT, many people never get the chance to actually run one. Somtimes the owners of steamers can be a little reluctant to let strangers run their loco's and I can see that if you own a real museum piece 4-8-4 or similar. But what about the guy/gal who seems real interested and is sitting on the fence about buying a steamer or a diesel.
He/she has been around the track on members diesels and they seem comfortablewith what they're doing. Would we rather see them at the club track with a steamer or a diesel? Sit behind them and give them guidence but most of all, Give them a chance at the throttle of your steamer and they will more than likely be in the market for a steamer.

P.S. I would like to thank Mike McClure of R.R. Supply for letting anybody who seemed interested, run his 4-4-0 at a meet I attened recently. I think he swayed a few people off the fence in the steamer direction.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:00:24 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: steam prices



Live steam does cost a premium over gas/electric. I finally made the move to live steam in gauge 1 when a good quality steamer became available for a reasonable cost. I'll follow the same route in 7.25" by starting with a gasser and looking for an affordable live steamer. There are some simple 0-4-0 engines that can be built for a reasonable price. If you can't machine you can buy a little at a time and build the engine as you can afford it. RMI has a BEAUTIFUL Forney that can be built this way. Yes it cost $25,000 fully assembled, but the machined casting are much lower than that. You will also get an added understanding of you engine as well as the pride of knowing that YOU built it. Another avenue is to watch the sales at ebay. I frequently find engine projects on sale that were never finished.

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:11:22 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: RE: steam prices



To add to this,
If you have the knowledge to build a locomotive, steam or otherwise, it dosen't cost any more (money) to build a steamer or a diesel. I have less than $1,000 invested in my 4-4-0.I purchased only the wheels , cylinders/saddle and stack spinnings. The rest was made from bar and sheet stock. Most of which was bought from scrap yards and drop offs from metal suppliers. Yes it does take more time this way but the end results are much more rewarding.
BTW I am putting together a very simple 0-4-0 gas mechanical and it will cost roughly $1,000 by the time I'm finished.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:21:04 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



Quentin,
Except for shear size, I see many parallels between your track and ours at Adirondack Live Steamers. We feel safety based rules are very important in order to help prevent mishaps and to keep the club's interests out of the courts. However, on occasion we find enforcement to be a bit of a problem especially since individual personalities sometimes tend to clash...no matter what the circumstances. How do you manage rules enforcement?

In view of the many inquiries I've received in the past year, we are not alone in our quest to enforce "The Rules". Other clubs are also searching for a way to enforce without alienating the very people we very much enjoy having as our guests, and more importantly, our friends.

Don

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:30:30 -0400
From: Jimmy

Subject: Re: RE: steam prices



Good point in the "G" gauge. A good LGB (track power) loco can cost $1400.
There are a lot of 0-4-0's in live steam starting around $400. The new Ruby live steam I've seen as low as $340, and it is a very good running engine.

Jimmy Baird in Virginia

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:34:00 -0400
From: Robert Herronen

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Quentin,

How does Train Mountain handle dispatching?

-RH
RGS RR

----------------------
Robert Herronen
Alumni Development / Web for Alumni Product Manager
University of North Carolina - Greensboro
Travel By Train - SEE the Country!!
"Life is a test. It is only a test. Had this been an actual life, you would have been told where to go and what to do..." - Unknown.

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:59:26 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: IBLS 2000



Right on re the upgrading from owning and running a Hondamobile to a steamer. I might have said that in my note but , resolved to keep my messages short, this progression was not mentioned.

Self censorship as to length and content has proved ineffective in the past. And also in the present looking on my rant Brasil recently.

Cam Brown

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:12:41 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Why Not A Steamer was IBLS 2000



Another again right on on the willingness of steamer ownersa to instruct and train the newbies on the care and feeding of a steamer. Best easing in is right at the beginning at the steaming bays in infecting a misguided diesal or electric owner into the wonders of steam.

I suspect anyone attracted to our hobby carries the aberrant gene in their DNA that compels them to obsess on railroads (my wife's theory) so full satisfaction can only come lubricated by steam oil and smoke. Preferably coal, sometimes wood.Oil and LP when necessary.

Cam

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:05:15 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



Your response was exactly what I expected, your organization appears to be a really well run affair. I'd bet it's run better than many of the old small prototypes! We have two "public" days at my club where we let anyone come for a ride. Our club is insured and we limit train size for liability reasons when running public trains. We are much smaller than your group we currently have about 4500 feet of 7.25" track and 1100 feet of hiline for 3.5 and 4.75".

If you forward my video information I'd recommend a quick run around each leg of your track as a separate video. This would keep them under a minute or so.

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:27:13 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: steam prices



A good point re G gauge as a start into steam. During the week long plus February extravaganza that is the winter meet of the Florida Live Steamers (this is like a progressive dinner party rolling from the south of Florida to tracks in the north, the activities mid week are at Parrish based at Larry Smith's Manatee Central and now two more contiguous tracks.Running on just about any model gauge is possible with every gauge at and under 7 1/2" offered. (The 7 1/4" question sahll be ignored for the nonce.) A great G loop with sidings is set up and atracts some great little radio controlled sets.

Lesson learned this spring: With the surge of interest in Narrow Gauge, make sure there is pleanty of clearance between the passing sidings and the main.

Cam

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:19:30 -0700
From: "Stan Zdonick"

Subject: RE: Why Not A Steamer was IBLS 2000



I would also suggest trying gauge 1 live steam first, just to get an idea of what it takes to actually create power from fuel and water. It can be as cheap as $350 for a Ruby which could easily be sold when you move up.

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:53:53 -0400
From: brotherbob@mindspring.com

Subject: Re: Engine Cost



I totally agree and am a waiting and a planning ;-)

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:41:19 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: IBLS 2000



Hello all,

From my side of the pond, I think, the gas and battery powered are the chance to get new and younger life into the backyard - hobby.

With the chance, to get in an reasonable time at also reasonable coast a locomotive and a riding car, we'll get more people into the hobby than with steam-engines.

See my history:

In 1982, I was invited to run an 2-8-0 on 5" track in 1" scale at a show. That was really impressive, but leaving in an rented room in the town, just starting to be trained for a new career and at last only educated office-worker with no shop, there was no chance for me to enter this hobby. And so, I started with smaller scales for the next 16 years.

And than, a new chance:

In 1996, my friend Holger, a well known german narrow gauger, started the construction of some light-railroad-cars for 5" track. And he followed prototype construction and built them from wood. Later, he constructed an battery powered locomotive (the prototype was also battery powered), and in january 1998, he joined other railroaders at the Sinsheim Indoor Live Steam Festival. I rode his train the whole sunday morning, and there it was again:
I wished to get my own engine.

But now, I had a chance to do this. In the meantime, I lived in the house of my mother and had a small room, where I could set up a small shop. And with the construction-techniques of my friend with wood and plastic, I could work.
So, I started the construction of my own engine, and rode it the first time in january 1999 in Sinsheim. Since that day, I've build a 4-wheel-riding car and the frame for the caboose. During the next weeks I plan to build another frame for an 8-wheel-riding-car and for two 4-wheel-cars. Perhaps, another Diesel-engine will follow, if possible, gas-powered.

If I ever will own an steamer, I don't know. For that, I don't have enough money or the skill to do this, but no one knows what will happen in future.

All the best from Germany, and hope to see many of you at Train Mountain

Hubert The Goose

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:54:59 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Train Mountain Map



Russ -

If the beautiful photo map of the layout that was sent to the members could be added to the web site, it might give everyone a better perspective of the true grandeur of the undertaking. Also, a few shots taken of "road bed to come" might help to build enthusiasm to come up and help get it built.

If you could link spots on the map to photos that would be a real bonus.

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 14:42:54 -0400
From: brotherbob@mindspring.com

Subject: Re: Train Mountain Map



Sounds like a very good idea to me.

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:16:20 -0000
From: rwilliams@pan-tex.net

Subject: Eureka1.jpg file



I put a .jpg of the Eureka in the files section, if some of you want to look at it. I took the photo with a disposable camera under adverse light, but it came out tolerable. She's sitting on the scale track at Silverton.

Let me know if you want to see some more.

--Bob

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:59:43 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Sharon,

http://www.halycon.com/dfm/bulletin

This will take you to the main bulletin board and the rest is all in there somewhere. The Actual physical location is in Chiloquin Oregon, just north of the California border and almost directly in the center of southern Oregon. Elevation 4200 feet, clean air, great views, oops, sorry got my salesman hat on again! :o)

Russ

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:13:26 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Da Group,

I belong to local live steam groups and also Train Mountain. There are two main differences between TM and any place else. As Qunetin said it is a private place, but more importantly it is HIS. There is no politcal power ot any person, group, old timers or new comers, there is only Quentin. He is deeply concerned with safety and for everyone to have a good time. ANYTHING that interferes with that is dealt with by him, no committees, no lectures, no long drawn out procedures. The rules are very short, very clear, very safe, and very enforceable. The second difference is the shear size of the place. Sacramento has a great layout with long runs and 10 to 15 trains can sometimes cause a bit of a bottleneck. I have run at Train Mountain when I knew there were 40 plus trains RUNNING and I only SAW 3 or 4 of them in two hours! Yes there is congestion, yes there is some waiting in lines, but those that know the layout have 'their' favorite loading and unloading places for our passengers (not always at Central Station). We all have our own favorite parking places to watch the trains go by. There is over a mile of track just to go around the yard! The main safety violations are those of excessive speed. In the accidents that I have witnessed ALL were speed related.

Russ

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:22:35 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Robert,

Dispatching is in it's infancy at Train Mountain and will be more of a yard function than that of a mainline function. During meets the dispatcher will be responsible for getting the trains into and out of the main yard and their proper track assignments. The size of Train Mountain and it's 'follow the leader' track arrangement doesn't require true dispatching. There are two places that require a 'signal' system as they are bi-directional sections of single track, but no dispatcher action. Quentin is very big into the 'railroad' game concept so as more and more track and industries appear, train orders, waybills, switch lists, etc,. will be used. As you travel around the mainline there are lots of spurs and industries along the way. Hope this answers your question.

Russ

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:22:40 -0400
From: Robert Herronen

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Kudos to Quentin! I too love to throw in some operations. With a "little" railroad it really adds a new dimension than just going in circles. With a large railroad, geez, you can send someone out with a cut of cars and by the time they get done, the hog-law will get them. :-)

I figured most of the TMRR was setup with directional tracks. Sure would be interesting with a small section that was under CTC with a dispatcher setting up meets, run-bys and the like.

Ya' all take care now ya' hear!

-Robert Herronen

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:31:09 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



Russ,
When speed is excessive, how is it handled/enforced?
Don

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:51:21 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Don,

The only cases I'm aware of, the speeder was told they were not welcome to return to Train Mountain and were asked if they needed any help in loading up their equipment!

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:04:59 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



THANK YOU VERY MUCH! Don

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:02:30 -0700
From: Allen Dobney

Subject: "Groovy" track vs Regular Rail



I am planning on starting to build my 7.5" Ga, 2.5" Scale RR in Southern Oregon starting next summer. I am considering using the "Groovy" track system offered by Rail Systems using plastic ties.

I would like to hear from anyone out there who has had experience with the "Groovy" track system and their comments on how they like it as compared to regular track construction.

Thanks............Allen

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:24:04 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: UP3985 Shakedown



For those interested, UP's 3985 made its Y2K shakedown trip yesterday. Reportedly all was successful. This year's trip was a little different from year's past as instead of making a LaSalle turn out of Cheyenne, they went to Laramie instead since there is currently an all day curfew on the Greeley Subdiv. for a Tie Gang.
Must have been a neat view trackside, but all I got to watch was the train symbol moving across the dispatchers board. Somehow watch a green line turn red doesn't quite have the same thrill as seeing it firsthand. (Sigh...)

For information on 3985's public excursions in 2000, see: http://www.uprr.com/uprr/ffh/excurs

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 20:22:35 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: "Groovy" track vs Regular Rail



Allen:

When deciding what track system to adopt for Train Mountain, I looked at every track on the West Coast. I suggest that you at least look at Medford, Train Mountain, Vancouver and Molalla. The former have use conventional rail fastened with screws to ties. The latter use bar stock that is supposedly held in the tires by friction and gravity. My own conclusion was that rail, ties, tie plates and screws was best. Thirteen years of experience and fifteen thousand feet of track on the ground have not changed my mind.

Indeed, I hear constant reports that the groovy system has problems with the bar stock popping out of the ties. I also hear frequent complaints that the bar stock causes severe wheel wear due to the narrow non-tapered bar stock surface.

I strongly suggest that you visit as many tracks as possible before you lay a single foot of track. You will make enough mistakes of your own. At least by visiting other tracks, you will avoid making other peoples mistakes.

Quentin

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 03:21:26 -0000
From: Russ@xor.net

Subject: Re: Engine Cost



So true so true. Talk about expensive ther are some non steam engines that go for 20K new. You can find some good steam engines used for less than that. The gas or electric engines are great. The gas are great for pulling the public and all you got to do is turn the key and go. Steam is a little more involved. I have seen guys almost fall asleep running there gas powered locos!! With steam it takes a little more concentration, you can still fall asleep but it is a little harder to do!!! To own both is a blessing, if you decide to want to take it easy run gas, if you feel like you want to be a little more involved run steam.. Give me steam first, others later!! When you plan and save and do the research you will be happy with whatever you choose.

Russ---

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 23:09:22 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: So you say you want a Steam Engine? (long)



There was an excellent editorial several years ago in Live Steam addressing this issue. In short it compared many hobbies/pastimes to Live Steam. In short, its not as expensive as some. A guy at work just bought a 11 year old Ranger Bass Boat for $9K and was told by his bank that its more likely worth $12K. Don't forget to add in the price of all the gear and even fishing can be expensive. I guess that's why I but mine at Sam's.
There are ways to get that engine if you can wait. One of the things about this hobby is that for every advertiser to Modeltec & Live Steam they're probably at least that many who don't advertise or advertise very little. You have to do a little digging.
Never having built or owned any live steam engine, I made my mind up that I wanted a 2.5" scale engine, preferably a K-27. Trouble is no one makes casting for one (yet.) In looking around I found out about Milner Engineering in England who did a 2.5" scale C-19. Now buying casting from that distance made me a little nervous, so I ordered that plans to see what they looked like. I also went through my back issues of Live Steam looking for any 2.5" scale engines. I ran across a couple of pictures of guys on 2.5" scale C-19's, so I wrote them in care of their club secretary. Both turned out to be using Milner's casting and had both good & bad to say about them.
When I was about ready to order I happened to have a conversation with Rudy van Wingen at Como Roundhouse who mentioned Dave Conway also offered casting for a 2.5" scale C-19. I had never seen an advertisement for Conway Locomotives up to that point. I called Dave and he was very helpful from the beginning and patiently answered most of rookie questions. I ended up buying Dave's castings which were priced much more reasonably than most others I had seen before. Did I order the whole pile at once? Nope, I just sent Dave a little every month or so and the pile grew.
I kept getting the evil eye from the UPS man as he delivered the boxes.
One day he asked me "What's in these things? They weigh a ton."
When I replied "Steam Engine parts." he just gave me that 'Smartass!' look.
Is it built and running? Nope. In the mean time I bought a 12" x 36" Lathe, built a phase-converter to run it, I've finished one basement, built a new house, moved and am in the process of finishing another basement. When I'm ready to make chips I plan to have most of the materials onhand. In short I may spend $10K, but at a rate that I'm comfortable with and not in a huge single lump sum.
Ever seen castings advertised for a UP Challenger? I haven't, but I know the casting were available not too long ago and I bet If I wanted to build one I could find a the guy that does them. How about your machining skills?
Are they up to par? Why not take a course at the local community college while your waiting? Ever thought about bartering what skills you have with the ace machinists in your club? You might be able to make a deal for some or all of the work you need done. At least the stuff a beginner might be afraid to tackle like Cylinders and Wheels. Know where the best places are to scrounge scrap metal in your area? It beats buying everything at brand new prices.
One non-machinist in our club ended up having his 2.5" scale Mich-Cal Shay built at a rate he could afford monthly, just like a car payment. He spent around $400/month. When the guy that built it had spent the $400 in parts and labor that month he just shoved is aside till next month. It took about 2 years but its a great running machine. It was also cheaper than buying the machine tools and doing the work himself.
The moral to the long winded tale is that if you really want it, you can find a way. If you have to make your own patterns and get your own castings made than do it, but it all depends on how bad you want it.
To steal a slogan from Nike "JUST DO IT!"

Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 21:55:30 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Don:

Because Train Mountain is in a relatively remote location, only 1% of our members live in Chiloquin. Another 1% come for the summer to assist the 1% year round residents. Four times a summer we have work weeks followed by a train meet. A work week attracts about 60 members. That is when we lay and ballast almost all of our track. In a good week we can lay and ballast 5,000 feet of track.

All of this stands for the proposition that most of those who run at Train Mountain are those who have spent time in the hot sun laying and ballasting the track upon which they are running. A visit to Train Mountain is almost always a combination of work and play and the physical removal from the ordinary world makes the time special is a way that rule enforcement is very rarely an issue.

This is due in part to the long main line. Russ is right. There can be forty trains out and you will only encounter two or three. Nonetheless, we have problems with trains following too closely and sometimes traveling too fast. Our solution is to install mile posts every hundred feet and have the operating rules geared to the presence of a mile post every hundred feet.

The following distance is two hundred feet behind the next train. That is two mile posts. Brakes must be able to stop a train within two hundred feet. The seven mile per hour speed limit is ten seconds between mile posts.

I belong to clubs that have thick rule books. Some even require that they be carried by every member while operating a train. That does not guarantee that the rule books are read. The Old Testament has Ten Commandments, Roman Law had Twelve Tables and Train Mountain has fourteen Rules of the Road. They are in the Encyclopedia, attached to a previous message. Those fourteen rules are posted on a big sign that every train must pass as it leaves Central Station. Additional rules have been proposed, but I am reluctant to increase the number, because it will only dilute the importance of the rules we have.

The three most important rules are that every train must have a conductor, that the conductor must be equipped with a red flag,and that the conductor must flag two mile posts behind any stopped train. The worst accident is one train running into the rear end of another train. If there is an engineer who has his or her head stuck in the cab of a steam locomotive, following too closely or asleep at the controls of a diesel, the flagger will make sure that the train stops.

For IBLS 2000, where many operators will be at Train Mountain for the first time, we will have an Inspection Station where the rules will be enforced. (See the Inspection Station entry in the Encyclopedia.) For example, if there are no safety chains between the cars on a train, an engineer will have to take the balloon track back to Central Station and install safety chains. (Some of our grades are a mile long so safety chains are essential.) If someone does not want to install safety chains, that train will not run. If there is no conductor, a conductor will have to be found, or the train does not go out.

Interestingly enough, the two people banished From Train Mountain over the past thirteen years were banished for things not in the fourteen rules and not directly train related, though one was a felony and the other a misdemeanor.

I hope this helps to explain our approach to safety.

Quentin

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:01:46 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: So you say you want a Steam Engine? (long)



Mark:

Roger Goldmann, who is a Train Mountain regular, has been producing the castings needed to build a Challenger. He will most likely be at IBLS 2000.

Quentin

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 22:15:54 -0700
From: Russ Warr

Subject: Re: So you say you want a Steam Engine? (long)



Mark,

Roger Goldmann in California makes Challenger castings and can even offer the pieces machined. He has a beautiful one piece casting for the centipede tender. It is about 6 feet long. He is just about ready to produce chassie's on air!! He does great work as well. He is also very reasonable on the wallet. he also offers Pacifics, switchers and i think Mogels and Consolidations!!!!

Russ

P.S. I agree with everything you said!!

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 02:04:24 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Russ,

Thank you for the information on Train Mountain.

Sharon

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:50:57 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: "Groovy" track vs Regular Rail



Go to a track with bar stock rail and look at the wheels of the older locomotives. Don

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:54:44 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: "Groovy" track vs Regular Rail



As far as using groovy track in plastic ties. I did some physical testing of my plastic tie material. The plastic does expand and contract with the heat of the sun, more than wood. This may cause problems with the "press fit" required to keep the bar rail in place. I did some other comparisons of wood vs. plastic ties and posted them on my web page under the "Why I'm Using Recycled Lumber For Ties" page.

Bruce Mowbray
trainhead@mymail.emcyber.com
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:47:44 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



Thank you Quentin for reinforcing your position on safety, it helps us all.

The more it is discussed, the easier the acceptance. Safety is not a negative restriction, its a positive attitude.

Our mile posts at ALS are 88' apart and the ten seconds between them allows 5 mph (scale 48 mph)which we feel is very good considering we are a mountain railroad with many blind curves. A very significant portion of our track has 65'r curves through cuts and around hills. We require the ability to stop within half the distance visible ahead. That's quite a challenge when running at the posted 5 mph and the eye is on the shovel as it's poked through a little fire door. We also have some long grades. Some visiting friends feel they need momentum to carry them to the top when what they actually need is less weight in the train behind.
SAFETY FIRST!
Don

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 09:40:39 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Don: I liked Quents/TM rule of two milepost space between trains although factoring in the 7 real mph speed is a factor. As another ALSer, 5 mph is fast enough for us, although I grant that the temptation to put the pedal to the metal is strong in a couple of places to get up the grade staring you in the face.

Maybe I'll be up briefly Sat. Big alumni weekend conflict.

Cam

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 10:17:02 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



Cam, In a few places one can actually see two or more mileposts at ALS. Joe Rice sent me a copy of the brand new 'New Life Video' tape of ALS, when you get yours see how many mile posts are visible at any one time. Regarding pedal to the medal, note the momentum vs train weight comment in my previous post. Will be good to see you again on Saturday! Remind me to give you the 'priorities' lecture again.
Don

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 07:43:16 -0700
From: "Ben Cantu"

Subject: RE: Safety at IBLS 2000



Quentin,

How do I become a member. While I have been in the railroading hobby for well over forty years, I have just become interested in large scale railroading; I do not have any equipment. But I do live within three hundred miles (a reasonable travel distance)of Train Mountain and can attend meets.

Ben

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:07:07 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Ben,

http://www.halcyon.com/dfm/bulletin

Has the membership application and tons of other information.

Russ

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:53:01 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Re Priority Lecture: Firt Law of Physics: Foir every action, there is an equal andf oposite reaction. Let's stay away from this. C

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 21:01:21 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Since there seems to be a number of Adirondak Live Steamers members on the list, I will pose this question. Does Tom Rhodes, (Fitchburg Northern #34) have e-mail, or is he a member of this list? Failing either of those possibilities, can I get a mailing address?

Donald Bauer
4803 N 53rd Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85031

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:01:03 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Safety at IBLS 2000



Tom has been reading and relying in livesteamers@uwimona.edu.jm. Maybe Don could give him a nudge. Arno

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 02:52:11 -0000
From: "Tom Miller"

Subject: K-36



Well, Bart and I finally got one of the K-36's painted and assembled. The Other one is about half done. You can see the pix in the FILES section. We hope to have the other one finished and run them both in late June.
The loco shown in the pix does not have the class lamps installed yet. Also missing is the Air compressor and blow downs.
Come on up to my RR August 19 and 20 for the IBLS meet and see em run.
Tom Miller

Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:06:53 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: K-36



Tom,

What a great looking loco. Well done, can't wait to see it under steam this summer. Congrats!

Russ

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:53:45 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: K-36



Hi Tom,

thank you for posting the pictures. The locomotives look really great, Congratulation for the good job.

Sad for me, but I'm not able to come up to you layout.

With my arrival on august 21 at noon in LA, we will have enough to travel up to Train Mountain.

Hubert from Germany

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:53:05 -0000
From: "Stan Rutledge"

Subject: Re: Maine Bar style trucks



Hi all, just joined this group this week. After struggling with which scale to work in, I have decided 3-3/4" (or so), our Washington weather is not especially conducive to operating without a roof over your head! Particularly when the urge to run is accompanied by the verge of rain.
The Maine two-footers are my focus for "modeling". This will inevitably a compromise of scale and function, the hope is not to lose the charm of the original.
I have been digging through the arch-bar truck messages and remember my first efforts. I built free-lace swing motion trucks some years back, casting bronze bearings in aluminum journal boxes in a " lost foam " casting. The bolster was 1/8" x 2", with wood 2 x 2 spacers. A 3/8" bolt went through the center of a wood block where the springs would normally be. The axles were 1/2" axle stock with a pipe sleeve and fender washers for back-to back spacing.
I snatched some canning wax from the shelf, melted it on the stove, put a 1/4" bolt near the center, and let it cool. After removing the wax, it was chucked in a drill which was clamped to a table. I then turned on the drill and removed that which was not wheel-like. This was my first wheel pattern. This was pressed open- faced into sand. I purchased a $65.00 weed burner and quickly melted some aluminum automotive wheels into a large cast-iron skillet.
After cleaning out oxidation with a stainless rod, I had what appeared to be a pan of shimmering mercury. This was poured into the sand pattern. After the aluminum appeared to be solid, (yet HOT!) I grabbed the wheel with a brake tool, and plunged it into water.
So far darn good. Then, a half-inch hole was drilled as near to center as possible, then this was mounted on a 1/4 HP electric motor with arbor. The wheel was then trimmed with a tool held in a pair of vise grips.
These parts were all wrapped up in 1" flat bar. The trucks were applied to a 6-cu ft scratch built side-dump car that hauled clay and rock.
These trucks were a touch troublesome, tram was a difficult concept for them to grasp, the sideframes tended to wander off the axles (but never came off!). Pretty good for the $15-20 I had in each truck for parts. Time involved wasn't that great, either.
I now am interested in gettin a little more involved in the truck making process, at least doing the castings. There's just something about having so much control over metal.
I could really use some basic plans for a Maine 2' gauge truck. If any of you have extra copies you can post or send, let me know, I have plenty propane, and a couple hundred pounds of cast aluminum automotive leftovers (the ultimate revenge! Melting down autos for train parts!). I should have some castings available within a couple months. I already have an aluminum pattern of a scale 20" wheel, perhaps some iron will flow later this summer.
It seems to me that if you really want trucks, they can be had, depending upon your desire, you will either part with money, or time and a little ingenuity.
Tommy Thompson's 9" gauge cars used 1 used automotive valve spring per sideframe. Worked very well. He also used brass wheels on steel rail and 1" channel. When the wheels were worn, they were remelted and reapplied.
Gotta go. I have some basic drawings of a Sandy River truck here somewhere, but not quite enough to produce a finished truck. I can get measurements for the flat bar, at least!

Stan Rutledge
Camano Is., WA

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:12:50 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: main two footer



Stan What do you mean rain. It would appear to me that you live in the San Juan Island sunbelt between the weather convergent zone south of Everett and the Vancouver/Burnaby rust-belt up north. (I Don't really mean it Lindsay, but it does seem to rain up there nearly every July 4th meet)

If you are looking for a very detailed Main two footer, consider using parts of the 2-4-4 Maxi Lucky 7 design by the late Don Young. I completed a Mini Lucky 7 and it is a very smooth running engine. However, when you get larger scale of the Lucky 7 design you will have to consider separating the integral tender from the locomotive. The locomotive is just too long for typical 7 1/2" gauge tracks and the 60-70 ft min radius curves most clubs build to.

Having finished a 2 1/2" scale Lil Lima a couple of years ago I find that is a very good match for size and comfort with lots of pulling power. Actually there are a couple of other designs by Keith Watson, of Western Australia, which are now handled by Roll Models in California. One is a Lil Mogul 2 1/2" scale and the other is a Sweet Creek and it is larger. Do look them up on web site http://users.wantree.com.au/~gabrep/wato. Roll Models also has a web site but I don't have it off hand.

One of our KLS members is building a Sweet Creek and he has all the castings in hand and has procured finished 1" thick frame members from Roll Models. This is an engineering project so be prepared for some serious work if you plan to build this large a locomotive.

Back to the Lucky 7, if you want to see my Mini Lucky 7, please get a hold of me and come on down to Seattle to see it.

If you want to see and ride behind a great Sandy River Main two footer (the size you indicate you are interested in building), plan on coming down to Dave Skagen's place this weekend in Shelton WA. I'm sure Dave's grandson will be running it. It should be noted that this weekend, May 20/21, is the only open run day at Dave Skagen's for the year, other than the IBLS 2000 meet interim two day stop between Burnaby and Train Mountain.

Do leave your umbrella at home. It doesn't rain in Seattle.

Doug in Seattle

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:59:48 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: main two footer



I think Stan was looking for freight or passenger truck plans, not engine truck plans.

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:07:20 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Maine Bar style trucks



Being a newbie, just hang on tight for the next several weeks as you get conflicting advice and reports from this burnch that you have, for better or for worse, become inseperably attached to.Like the Tar Baby. CB

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:20:10 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: main two footer



Ha! - to the proposition of no rain in the northwest.

Also refer to any standard atlas and/or travel brochure to find that the main spelling of that fabled new England State tucked away out of harms way up in the northeast portion of the nation is Maine, with an e. All sorts of neat narrow gauge stuff available in this backwater of true civilization. What does a neophyte need to know?

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:31:26 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: main two footer



Sometime back, and I have lost the mailing address (or it'sx buried in my stuff somewhere, someone in So.Africa built a Maxi-#7 3 3/4" /1' scale with a seperate tender, making a 2-4-couldn't -notice-the-gap-4 of Bridgton and Saco River #7 which hinged the "tender" or tank and could handle normal ! 1/2" scale curves without looking grotesque. Beautiful model even forgiving the full English brass steam dome that would not have been accepted to the staid Mainiacs.

Whatever developes out of this chat, let us all agree that Maine has an e at the end.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:44:38 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: main two footer



Too true. Someone up Toronto way built a glorious Maxi ( 3 3/4" /foot) Lucky #7 from the series that ran for a couple of years in Live Steam. Long leggeded beasty that was always trying to straighten out the railroad. Had an inaugural run but was, as I understand, expelled from her home track for her tendancy to turn curves into straightaways. Lost track of her, and her owner, several years again.

Repeat after me: Maine, Maine, Maine. Ends in an e. Place up there in the Northeast corner of the nation insulated from the rest of us by New Hampshire. Which concept,having lived there, will take more explaination.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:40:05 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: main two footer



That was Jimmy Small and his engine, re-gauged to 7-1/2" and with a more practicable but grotesque cab is now in the Kalamazoo, MI area.
Arno

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 19:50:46 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: main two footer



"Well, It hardly ever rains here in Seattle, but oh, what a lot of dew...."

Anybody remember Uncle Stan Boroson and his dog Nomo?

Building SR&RL #10 from Maxi Lucky 7 bits, however I doubt it will ever come close to Dave Skagen's #24, a beautiful locomotive, well worth a trip to see. Dave is a master builder.

Linc

Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:19:00 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: Re: main two footer



Jim Small is alive and well and visiting us this weekend. He is sitting next to me while I type this In Michigan . We are enjoying a bloody mary while reading about his engine. I am happy to report #7 climbs 5% grades with 4 cars and goes around 75' radius quite well now. We had him put on scale wheels, changed the amt. of swing in the trailing truck and changed the lead truck pivot and loading and now runs great. Yes the cab is oversize but we can sit under it in snowstorms and rain. When not in use, it is happily residing in a heated roundhouse on the Sandy Ridge and Clear Lake Rwy. See our web site for pictures and info on the railway.
John K. has drawing available on the web made in AutoCAD that you can find from our what's new page. They are for an arch bar truck and a flat car.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 23:56:06 -0000
From: "Stan Rutledge"

Subject: RE: Re: main two footer



Wow! I really did not expect such a response. I appreciate the link to the drawings; I had to jump out on the web and download a viewer to use the files; you have also made a sale for software, though indirectly. I have already been going through the drawings and it seems to me that these were at one time used for kits of some sort. If so, are they/ will they be available again?
I had bookmarked the SR & CL web site about a week ago; this page was my inspiration for choosing "3 3/4" scale. Just a chance to get my head out of the rain did it for me. My friend saw the web page, and couldn't believe that you could stuff yourself into anything that was 7 1/2" gauge, but that little diesel halted the doubts completely.
I couldn't help but notice the mention of STEEL couplers?
CAST? ?got leftovers? Are these for sale on a website? I can't imagine even a good alloy Al or bronze coupler lasting at this scale.
I guess I'll get to that wheel pattern now.

Stan

Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 20:26:40 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: main two footer INFO FOR STAN



Hi Stan. The drawings for the aluminum parts are from David Rohrer.
DMM-Como Roundhouse products maybe handling those in the future. Check with Rudy on future availability. We do have steel couplers available. They are $100.00 a pair rough castings for body and knuckle. Will be happy to supply with as many as you want. Glad you like the drawings. I have built three cars from them.
There may be a problem with a dimension for a hole on the end block so check before you drill. I have instructions in a word 97 document I can fwd if you want.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 06:11:15 -0000
From: "Stan Rutledge"

Subject: Re: main two footer INFO FOR STAN



I ALWAYS check before I drill. Almost always.
I am thrilled to hear the parts will be available through Como. I believe the Internet can really get the message out. I was really, REALLY frustrated with 1 1/2" scale. My previous few years' experience firing std. ga. with a roof over my head spoiled me. And at least in the summer, if you couldn't stand the heat, you got outta the cab.And into the rain.
I must chip out some "hobby money" for some red oak car parts. Out here on the West coast red oak is rather spendy, and I usually go through a cord or so just notching a couple end beams. If I don't have at least one flat ready for couplers (on swing-motion "shop trucks")by August I'll be fit to be tied.
The castings are clean enough to be ground and filed to finish, I hope. $100.00 a pair are much less than std. ga. and easier to install. I feel that is a fair price considering a little out-of-surface track won't gall the pulling faces to uselessness in a month.
I received the latest RMI catalog today and the part prices for their 2-4-4 seem reasonable, though I ain't aware of a lot of comparable kits. I won't go with much beyond the chassis, wheels, rods, and cylinders. Everything above that I want to cast/ machine/rivet myself. The web site pic is a touch too "British" for me.
I've noticed concerns about this scale and Forney designs having a tendency to cold-form curves to tangent. So is the Stuart 2-4-4 min. recommended radius of 40' a reference to the turntable pit rail?Or is that #7 just larger, or was it the construction itself?
I am concerned because I am planning some test track with 40' radius curves. Will I need mechanical flange lubricators for this curve?
So many questions. Who's in charge of the FAQ around here? Go ahead and fwd the instructions. It'll give me a little time to study before I start hacking oak.

Thanks again for the drawings!
Stan Rutledge

Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:32:50 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Dave Skagen's Sandy River #24



My previous didn't seem to be posted so here goes again.

The meet yesterday, May 20, 00, at Dave Skagen's was nice. The weather was overcast but no rain. Attendance was a bit down but with other activities going on east of the mountains, in Burnaby and other places it was nice to always have a clear signal for the track and be able to park in the lovely little station and just chat.

Everyone enjoyed seeing again, Dave Skagen's Sandy River #24 and it was running for most of the day. Dave's train looks very complete with his two large gondolas, box car and really a neat caboose. The caboose looks like an image of the Sandy River caboose I saw in two foot museum in Portland, Maine a couple of years ago. As mentioned by another individual this last week, Dave's engine and cars are just fantastic.

I've added a posting of one photo of Dave's locomotive but since I'm getting strange symbols on the screen listing of files I will not add any others at this time. If I receive feedback that the photo is being received I will add a file of photos with several other shots of the locomotive and caboose.

Doug from Seattle

Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 11:46:14 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: No Subject



Rudy,
You seem to be on top of things. Do you know if the 2-E group server is down or what? I sent a posting regarding Dave Skagen's meet yesterday (twice) and nothing responds into my in-mail box, nor is it added to the listing of messages.

If others see this and both messages come through later, I apologize for the duplication.

I received a nice e-mail from Chris in Australia yesterday that is heart warming. He indicated he has decided to go with professional design help in his Challenger boiler. I would hope that the Australians would see where the hobby is moving and update their hobby boiler code to allow boilers for the larger models. The present restriction requiring in effect that boilers be only half length or whatever, due to Australian Hobby Boiler Code limitations, in my opinion is very unfortunate and behind the times.

Doug in Seattle

Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 12:21:33 -0700
From: Don Dickens

Subject: Re: No Subject



Doug,
Picture is sure enough on my files list. Send more, I'd love to see them
Don Dickens

Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 01:42:41 -0000
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Live Steamers Email Directory



This came to me on the LargeScaleTrains List.

Pat

At long last the Live Steamers Email directory is on line. Please register at http://livesteaming.com/directory/directory.html

Give it a try, look for bugs, and please let me know if it is working for you.

It is very much a chewing gum and bailing twine sort of a database. If there are any database programmers out there who know how to add security features, I need to hear from you.

Please contact me at my email address, because I do not normally monitor this list.

Ron Stewart
http://livesteaming.com

Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 20:31:14 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: SVLS Spring Meet



Hi all,

Just got home from the spring meet at SVLS (Sacramento Valley Live Steamers). The folks sure know how to put on a great meet. The food was excellent, the weather was hot, the crowds were big, lot's of steamers, and the Saturday night running was awesome. I ran until 10:30 p.m. and then my posterior gave out. Too much fun! If you ever get the chance to run at Sacto I think you will really enjoy it. If you check out their website www.svls.org and check out the track plan. What it doesn't show is that a good part of their track runs right though a picnic area in a regional park. Complete with a wandering creek, a waterfall, lagoons, ducks, and geese, and all alongside the American River! Russ

Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:48:13 -0700
From: "Bonville"

Subject: Re: SVLS Spring Meet



Russ,
Had I known that you were going I would have said, Hi. I had my RMI 65ton engine on display. I had picked it up from RMI, Saturday, two weeks earler and had it operating by Sunday night. Unfortionally, work picked up after I took apart to paint and add some mod's. Shame I didn't have it running agian intime for SVLS's Spring Meet. In two weeks, though, I will be at Train Mountain with it.

Hey, did you see those cool 2.5" Gladhands and Valves. and the operating triple valve breaking system?

Curtis

Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 21:33:31 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: SVLS Spring Meet



Curtis,

Super Scale had a great bunch of the detail parts I had been looking for. Now if I can just find some of the diesel parts I need and have them look as good as the steamer parts! :o) I need a horn, a bell, an MU box and couplings, lift bars, . . .

I did see a couple of RMI engines running and they always run terrific.

I won't be going to TM until August but I will be there for the whole month!
Russ

Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:32:35 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Continue Discussion



Continue discussion on 7 1/4 (+1/4=) 7 1/2", ?? back to back dimensions, wheel tread width and profile, flange depth and profile, frog flangeway depth, etc., etc. far into the night: Yes - quite often I go through the 7+ postings without joining in the lob and volley but I mount the barricades to correct a grievous error made by Tom Keenan (two e-mail addresses ; don't remember which handle he uses in this group) in "Trainline", the house organ of the Florida Live Steamers, page 6 May-June 2000 to be exact.

Prototype cars on the Maine two-footers were nominal 6 ft. wide, not 8 ft.. This with my favorite conversion multiplier of 0.3 times any dimension, gives you a width of 21" and change overlooking such niceties as stake pockets and grab irons. We would have to go hunting for different scale and running gauge to get up to the 30" suggested in the Trainlines article. Tom gave this 7 + group a good plug so heaven only knows how many other characters might be swept into the fold.

One last shot of mine that Tom refers to obliquely: My gut tells me that, within the Big Tent of narrow gauge modelling, standards with built in slop could be recognized so that the 1/4" spread could be, what's the word - not ignored, accomodated perhaps.Frogs the major problem area perhaps, and flange profile but a stitch here and a tuck there could,in a relatively short period of time makethis hobby less geographically sensative.

Who remembers the late Don Marshall, a master at engine tweeking, and his big green Kendron (?) Valley RR Supply Mikado on any of his several wintertime trips south. Did anyone get sticky about tire width, B to B dimension,flange profile etc. etc.?

Great newsletter Tom - put bylines on the articles, like Pete Newcombe's, to deflect blame from youself. And tell Pete and Warren Jamison that I look forward to picking up on the several arguments left hanging by my return to the cold and clammy north.

Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:49:12 -0000
From: Russ@xor.net

Subject: ALCO LOCOMOTIVE WORKS



I am doing some research on Big Boy's and would appericate help in locating info on ALCO on the web or in print. Film or vidio would be great as well.

Thanks
Russ
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:19:18 -0400
From: "Rich D."
Subject: Re: ALCO LOCOMOTIVE WORKS

Russ,
Alco Historic Photos:
http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/text/alcohisp.htm
http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/text/alcohist.htm

I just received some Colorado Midland prints.
ALCO was formed in 1902
Rich D.

Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:24:55 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: ALCO LOCOMOTIVE WORKS



Naturally, when one goes looking for something, the something hides. Froim memory, now that I cannot give a definate referance, I believe the Mohawk and Hudson chapter of the NRHS maintains a library of ALCO stuff. I swear they run ads in the fanzines regularly but couldn't find a copy right now to prove it.

Cam B

Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:18:00 -0400
From: "Tom Keenan"

Subject: Trainline newsletter error



Cam Brown was kind enough to point out that I made a "grievous" error in the latest issue of the Florida Live Steamers' newsletter, the "Trainline" concerning the size of Maine TFG cars. I realize the cars were only were 6' wide but I had been working on some three foot gauge narrow gauge tank cars and got my dimensions mixed up when I too quickly computed the size of Maine TFG equipment scaled down to 7 1/2 or 7 1/4" or 7 1/16" or whatever. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

That's always the problem when I'm forever up to the deadline for putting out another issue and trying desperatly to solicit and/or create enough material to fill 8 pages. I'll have to be more careful in the future or the FLS politburo will cut my pay.

Tom Keenan

Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:52:53 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Trainline newsletter error



Pray they only cut your pay.

To put some salve on your wounds there were many Maine cars wider than 6 ft. Most of the passenger cars went 6'6" and I think that strange beastie of a converted excursion car on the WW&F was a tad wider.The larger engines were 7' and charge wider.

Here is a good spot to tell the story of SR&RL #24 for all the unromantic, iunconverted modellers who stick to Standard Gauge. When the spec sheet got down to the fabrication shop at Baldwin, the defined tender width of 84" was read as 8' 4" so the railroad got an unwanted bonus in tender capacity. There is a marvelous picture in many of the Maine 2' books of what happened when #24 was backing down the Madrid Branch with a cut of pulpwoob racks and thje water started sloshing back and forth in the tender. Needless to say, modellers of the Sandy River are never at a loss as to what the details of the underpinnings looked like.

So they took the mess back to the Phillips body and fender shop and cut 16" out of the tank (the long way) bringing it to the defined 84" better suited to the loading gauge. If there was one. Since #24 was the last steamer bought there was no chance to turn the 16" back to Baldwin for credit.

Cam

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:39:11 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: (was): ALCO LOCOMOTIVE WORKS



Hi all,

I'm a new member, though I've been sitting on the sidelines watching for a week or so. I live in the UK, and don't currently have any 7.5inch gauge or similar size trains - I'd love to have the time or the room one day, so I'll keep watching and gathering information. I'm hoping to sit down in the next year of so and build something to run at one of the local club tracks - most likely either a battery or petrol electric. I haven't got anywhere near choosing a prototype yet, but a 2 1/2 inch scale G8/G12 (as run on 3ft or metre gauge) looks quite likely at the moment. This is all a bit of a pipe dream at the moment since I'm halfway through moving house..

Mention of Alco reminded me that I'm looking for some information, so maybe somebody out there can help?

I'm interested in the the S118 mikado locomotives built by Vulcan and others for service abroad with the USA/TC during and after the second world war. They were used throughout world on 3ft/metre/3ft6 gauges including some on 3ft gauge lines in the US. I already have a copy of the weight diagram and various photographic sources including the Touret book on Allied locomotives, but I'm looking for more detailed information if it's available. I've heard that the EBT have one of these locomotives, but I couldn't find a mention of it on their website.

These were quite small locomotives with 48inch drivers and a 9 ton axle load (also just 11ft2 tall) that could be sent just about anywhere - three even made over the ?Kaiber? pass into Burma on the back of tank transporters. Modelled in 2 1/2 inch scale they'd look quite small by US standards and wouldn't be much bigger than some 1 1/2 inch scale standard gauge equipment.

Thanks for any help,

Jonathan Joseph

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:04:46 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Dave Skagen pictures



Hi all,

can you imagine, what Seattle, Los Angeles and Werl in Germany have common?

No? All three cities are involved in the upload of the pictures from Dave Skagens layout.

As some of you had learned, they could not view all the pictures or got broken links.

After discovering that, Doug tried to send me all the files, but I wasn't able to decompress them.
So, Rudy van Wingen came to help, let him send the files from Doug, changed the files, so that they can be used in the PC-world, created an self-extracting file and sent it to me.

And now, Werl in Germany was the last point for the files, before the upload to the server.

I just loaded the 20 pictures up, and now you should all be able to view them from the file-section at onelist under http://www.egroups.com/files/7-plus-NGM/

Hubert

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 14:24:06 -0500
From: Jim Keith

Subject: Re: S118



Jonathan:

The S118 sounds interesting, outside valve gear I presume?? I'd be interested in any info that shows up.

By way of comparison, I've been attracted to the 3' ga Waynesburg & Washington RR #4 (2-6-0). See: http://narrowtracks.com/wwrr/WW4.htm. It sports 41" drivers, 7 ton axle loading (my estimate) and the stack rises 11' 3". Evidently, a full size copy survives.

Jim Keith

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:20:05 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Dave Skagen pictures



Great job on the photos guys! Thanks for posting them.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:34:23 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Dave Skagen pictures



Wow,

What a great location. I'd sure like to see that same shot (approach to duck pond bridge) taken in the fall just as theleaves change. Great work on the pictures 'group', keep up the good work!

Russ

Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:52:25 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: Re: S118



Jim,

>The S118 sounds interesting, outside valve gear I presume??

Yep, walscharts, with piston valves. The engines were pretty much a 70% scale version of the USRA standard light Mikado from the first world war, with everything in proportion.

>I'd be interested in any info that shows up.

I can post something from what I do know, if people are interested.

>By way of comparison, I've been attracted to the 3' ga Waynesburg & Washington RR #4 (2-6-0). See: http://narrowtracks.com/wwrr/WW4.htm. It sports 41" drivers, 7 ton axle loading (my estimate) and the stack rises 11' 3". Evidently, a full size copy survives.

I haven't got web access from this machine, so I'll have a look when I get home tonight. What little I'm doing at the moment is mostly in G-scale (or sometimes 1:24 and F), and this sounds like it might fall nicely between the LGB south park mogul and the Bachmann ten wheeler in size....

Jonathan

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 19:44:37 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: What Happened?



I must have clicked some area that I shudenuh 'cause I have not had a posting from anyone in three days. Do I sign up, renew?

Cam Brown

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 20:34:31 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Re: 7-plus-NGM- What Happened?



Hi,
I beleive we are enjoying the weekend off. Me, I'm werkin on the tenwheeler's Dynamo. A suped up version of a Moseley.
Rich D.

Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 00:18:33 EDT
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: Re: main two footer



You're probably talking about Jim Small. That locomotive is now in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Jim Gould

Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:17:52 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: What Happened?



Nah,

We're all still here, but busy with family over the three day holiday.

Sharon D

Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:12:56 -0700
From: Allen Dobney

Subject: Coupler Heigths



Does anyone have or know of a heigth standard for the center of the coupler to the top of the rail for 2.5" scale?

Thanks.........Allen

Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:31:16 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Coupler Heigths



Ha:
The next great controversy looms it's ugly head. Correct coupler height for 2.5" scale should be 5.4" frpm the rail. However, that only works well if you are using all 2.5" equipment and do not wish to couple up to 1.5" equipment using the same trackage. In the event of a desire for dual scale interchange, 4.4" (4 7/16") is more likely going to work out. Now we know why NG motive power had those coupler pockets that would hang a coupler anywhere from laying on the rail to 6 ft off the ground.

Don Bauer