7+-NGM-logo The

7-Plus-NGM Digest May 2002

Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 05:22:43 -0000
From: "wsflco"

Subject: Redwood Valley 50th coming up...

Hi All,
Just a reminder that the 15" gauge event of the season is coming up at the Redwood Valley Railway, in Berkeley, CA. They will be celebrating 50 years in operation, with around 10 steam locomotives and 3 internal combustion in attendance, including their own. Try and make it if you can on June 1st and 2nd. The link to the RVRy events page is:

Chris Allan

Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:36:16 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: newbie wants to build live steam

Railroad Supply Corp. has the plans and a kit for the CP-173. This is the 4-4-0 depicted by the electric "Lilly Belle" offered in gauge 1 (G scale). The kit is offered in 1 1/2" scale 7+"

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 10:23:46 EDT
From: Jay W Stryker

Subject: Re: newbie wants to build live steam

Hi Gadfly,

I presume you have or know of... but in case you don't, get the big book -- Modern Locomotive Construction -- by J G A Meyer, of 700 pages and 1000 drawings... this is sold by Lindsay, catalog # 21443, $44.95 + s&h. This covers 4-4-0, 2-6-0, 4-6-0, and 2-8-0 designs as of 1892.
In my opinion, it should be on every locomotive builder's library shelf.


Jay in western Massachusetts.

Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 08:29:48 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Redwood Valley 50th coming up...


I would love to come but we are having a meet the same weekend (Train Mountain). Tell everyone there congratulations and I hope it's as much fun for you on your 50th, as the fun you gave GGLS on their 50th. Take lot's and lot's of pictures. Again Congrats!

Chiloquin, Oregon

Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 16:35:39 -0000
From: "crown36gage"

Subject: Re: newbie wants to build live steam

First of all, which Crown did you grow up with? I have put together a list of the 36" Crowns (see Matt Conrad's "official parktrains" website) and am now starting to track down the 24" ones.

Although the 36" gage Crowns had quite different proportions than the 24" Crowns, I do have an outline drawing I did of the 36" Crowns that I measured in Cincinnati thirty years ago when I was running them. If you are interested, I could send you a jpg of it.

But if I were a newbie, I would go with a tried and true design, and the RR Supply 173 is a good engine. If you like park engines, you could build it to look like the Ripley or the Holliday at Disneyland or any of the four engines at Disneyland Paris since all six of those engines started with Walt's 173 drawings, but had the cab roofs raised for ergonomics. The Walt Disney World and Disneyland Tokyo engines do not resemble the 173 since the WDW engines were the real thing rescued from Mexico and the DT engines are 30" gage 2-4-0.

If a 24" Crown is truly your interest, the basic engine wasn't much different than a Cagney, but with a bigger cab and stack. Shaw's "Little Railways of the World" had outline drawings of the 12", 15" and 22" Cagneys. Unfortunately it is out of print and hard to find. You might check Grand Scales Quarterly's website to see if they have a few to sell.

Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 18:24:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: greg moore

Subject: Re: Re: newbie wants to build live steam

I think I sent a photo of it to you of the Portsmouth City Park Railroad's "Pokey Smokey" some time back.
It's a 24 gauge that still burns coal. I have gotten and enjoyed much information from you. I also sent Bert Williams a photo of it by US Mail and was surprised that he replied. If you like I can send it again and you can put it on Mat Conrad's page. Thanks for the info. I think I'd better start with some basics first.


Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 06:48:23 -0700
From: Greg & Susan Robinson

Subject: "Little Railways of the World" reprint

Actually, the book is back in print. Little River did a reproduction, so the whole world may have their own copy.
And yes we do sell them. (Web site below). It is a fantastic volume and the "bible" for those interested in the larger gauges.

All the Best,
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates

P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff,
CA 96080 USA
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 19:08:10 -0400
From: "Bret Kueber"

Subject: Sweet Creek


Does anyone have any experience running / building the Sweet Creek? How does the boiler steam on coal? How well does the engine pull? How is the quality of the castings/machined parts?

Thank You,
Bret Kueber

Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 21:53:02 EDT
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Sweet Creek


Please allow me to answer some of your questions.

I was the owner and operator of the Browning Railroad located in Chappell Hill, Texas.

About ten years a gentleman by the name of Walt Sumner, imported the first and probably the only one to be air freighted in a "Watco Locomotive 2-6-0". This locomotive is the same thing as "Sweet Creek" that is now, being built by Roll Model.

By the way Walt Sumner pass away last Wednesday, and his funeral was yesterday.

While the locomotive was on the grounds of the Browning Railroad, Walt may have operated it no less than a dozen times. The locomotive was a good coal burner, around 120 lb. steam pressure. The "Dulce" was a very heavy steam locomotive, I believe the engine along weighted over 1,500 lb., and tender weighted over 900 lb..

After operating the locomotive at the Browning for number of years, Walt decided to relocate the locomotive to a track closer to town, (Houston), on a private track in Katy Texas. I think the locomotive only ran a couple times in Katy as Walt's health was getting bad.

A gentleman in Madisonville, by the name of Vance Nickerson, has the plans of Sweet Creek, from Roll Model, and will probably build the locomotive some time in the future.

The locomotive has a dry back boiler, so it does get real hot in the cab, it will burn your shoes if you get too close.

Please email back if you would like for me to email you some pictures.

David Hannah, III
Houston, Texas

Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 22:33:39 -0400
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Mid-South Pictures Posted

Well, I have posted pics from Mid-South. Yes, there was lots of L&N stuff there. You can see them at: http://users2.ev1.net/~on30/MidSouth/MSPics.htm

I hope to post the movies latter this week including a couple of L&N ones, I will let you know when I do.
I will also be changing the Apex movies, so if you haven't seen them do it soon at: http://users2.ev1.net/~on30/Apex/Movies/Movies.htm

Of course this can all be found on my main Live Steam Page: http://users2.ev1.net/~on30/LiveSteam.htm

Also, don't forget my main home page: http://users2.ev1.net/~on30/ Be sure to sign the guest book if you get a chance.

Pat Turner

Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 09:53:10 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 536

Hey all... The huge model 'Sweet Creek' and its ilk are very big..There is one at the Illionois live steamers...It sits there and is for sale.. It cannot run on their trackage..When last out it upset the roadbed and leaned over and had to be held upright by volunteers until a more stable position was attained...
I like the looks of this machine but would advise that a good roadbed and trackage must be in place for such a large loco to function correctly...

Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 01:22:44 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: Sweet Creek

Bret Kueber

If you decide to build or buy a "Sweet Creek", please note that you will be very welcome to run on our 7-1/2" gauge 2-1/2" scale track at the Joshua Tree & Southern RR Museum and Club .

We have been honored to host many of the RMI Railworks products, including some the public has not yet seen, and several of our members have RMI's products that they run proudly, well, and often at our track.

Being built to to 2-1/2 scale standards, our track is sturdier than most 7-1/2" gauge tracks and you need have no worries about incidents such as those described by of the Illinois Live Steamers.

Perhaps you can pick up the loco "steamin10" describes at a bargain price?

Good luck,

Rudy van Wingen, V.P.
JT&S RR Club & Museum

Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: paul garin


As the supplier of Sweet Creek parts and finished locomotives, I would like to offer some additional information. As built by RMI, Sweet Creek locos weigh approx. 1150#. Drive axles are loaded at about 350# each, and the pilot truck about 100# (a little under 10%). This compares closely with most large 7-1/4 / 7-1/2" gauge engines. On all large locos, careful attention must be paid to weight and balance. The shifting of the boiler, or the use of the use of aluminum instead of steel in selected areas have measureable effects on axle loading.
Sweet Creeks built by RMI have all aluminum rods, motion, and pistons. By drastically reducing the reciprocating mass, vibration and rail pounding is minimized, and overall engine weight is lowered.

As regards heat in the cab, if the fire box does not have external insulation, the surrounding area is indeed HOT. All RMI built units have insulated fire boxes and back heads covered with a stainless steel jacket. Thus equiped, they are no hotter than any other steamer. They steam freely on diesel oil, propane, or coal.
As with most endeavors, different interpretations of a basic design yield widely different results. As designed, the Sweet Creek is not overweight, and will operate on any resonablely track with no adverse consequences.

Please feel free to contact me for any further information.

Paul Garin

Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:01:27 +1200
From: "Hansen-Hill"

Subject: Fw: [passenger-carrying-garden-railways] Digest Number 93


Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:14:22 -0000
From: "nikkiriverhilton"
Subject: Rental of Mini Steam Rail for kids camp

Dear All
we are putting on a kids camp for the underpriveledged this June 1- 9th in Richards Castle, Herefordshire. We need to find a portable mini railway to hire for the event, to give the kids rides. Please reply ASAP, as time is of the essence.
Much thanks
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:09:54 -0400
From: "Bret Kueber"

Subject: Narrow gauge on standard track

Based on the response to my question on the sweet creek, I have a couple of questions to pose to the group:

Is there a problem with stability of narrow gauge engines at standard 1.5" scale clubs?

Do most clubs mind narrow gauge equipment running there?

Is there really a clearence problem with 28" wide locos at most clubs?

I measured the clearence at our club, and it wouldn't be a problem. But as I plan to travel with my engine quite a bit, I was hoping to have as much freedom of choice as I could. Yet I really like the scale and power of narrow gauge equipment.

P.S. All are welcome at our club!!

Thank You,
Bret Kueber
Vice President
Lakeshore Live Steamers
Kirtland, Ohio

Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 03:15:56 -0000
From: "dwdickens98684"

Subject: Narrow Gauge engines on any track

Bret and others,

I ran my NG engine on tracks all up and down the West Coast from British Columbia to Southern California.(I started the 7+NGer) for several years.

It never fell off anybody's track!

My best guess would be that whoever is tamping the ballast is doing so under the center of the tie and so you have a teeter-totter effect.
If ballast is continued out to the side far enough so that it can be tamped under the tie ends you'll have good stability.

The clearance problem is a myth! You don't see the standard gauge engineers running with their feet in their pockets do you? No, they have foot pegs sticking out beyond their engines. You use the same clearance width and keep your feet inside that clearance.

Don Dickens

Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:34:09 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Narrow gauge on standard track

Hi Bert,

Stability of NG engines on 7 1/2 (or 7 1/4) track should not be a problem at all .....
unless the track has problems ...... and these should impact larger 1 1/2" scale engines also.

However, clearance may be a slight problem ..... when I first started running my 2 1/2" scale american (engine width approx 20" .... with foot pegs outside of that), my feet would occassionally snag switch stands, and other track "scenery", although the engine itself hasn't actually hit anything. Also, narrow gauge engines have been getting around, for quite a while now, so most tracks should have already had revisions made to accomodate (wheter planned or not, is another story) NG engines.

George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 10:31:09 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Ref Narrow gauge equipment on standard track

Reasonable question Bret.

Don Dickens and George Potter's response was right on. I purchased Don Dicken's narrow gauge equipment when I was building my own narrow gauge Lil Lima (a Keith Watson's design from Western Australia which is now in the Roll Models design inventory.) His locomotive was just super. It was my introduction to the larger narrrow gauge after having built a mini Lucky 7 a small narrow gauge. The fellow who purchased Don Dicken's loco from me after I finished my own large narrrow gauge is just as happy with it as Don and I were.

The only additional comment I might add to this discussion is to carefully look at the size, weight and weight distribution of any large narrow gauge locomotive you are considering. All narrow gauger locomotives are not the same. Without getting into specifics and particular models, there have been a couple of concerns in the past. Having said that, I understand that there have been changes made to those designs (at least by one or more of the builders) to alleviate some of the weight and length problems that each had but again it is important to carefully look and talk and find out all you can before jumping into a specific design or model. Building any locomotive is a long term project, for most of us, and it would be a serious mistake to not be completely informed on what it is you are planning to build before you start.

Doug from Seattle

Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 12:47:11 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 539

Yo... I have inquired as to the Availablity of The Sweet Creek loco, and I must admit I am having trouble tracking this thing down...I will post here anything significant I find out. My statement for its being for sale was anecdotal,and may not be entirely accurate. The provenance for this information will be researched...
2) The Sweet Creek and similar Engines have a great allure for me as they seem less toy like , and are definately more inpressive...They of course are somewhat heavier than a normal 1.5 loco.. But they are quite managable..They do not to my experience present a stability problem , clearances on club tracks are generous to avoid passenger problems so those things become pretty much a non issue .. I myself am using 2.5 scale and have completed the first mine car ..A boxcab with sunstrand drive is under construction... I like the more Human size of the larger scale.. I am building to the imagineering principle of 'what if' to justify all the rolling stock as company or house built equipment, Based on bootstrap logging and mining operations....It is fun to imagine a scenario that gives a basis for small and perhaps odd equipment on the rails....
3)Locomtive stability for design purposes is pretty simple..If you look at Narrow guage equipment it is somewhat squatty compared to standard guage...
That is because it is all built with a lower center of gravity..The expression of the triangle across the rail heads to the center of gravity at the apex is the same for whatever track width is used, making the equipment stable regardless of track width..To topple a piece, the C of G must be moved beyond 90 degree above the rail....If you look at the dimensions of this equalateral triangle you will find very small diference in Cof G height regardless of the size of locomotive (or any equipment) in that guage...
Just some food for thought .. Thanks for readin... DaveB

Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 22:31:39 -0000
From: "frolinmarek"

Subject: Re: Ref Narrow gauge equipment on standard track

In regards to running NG on standard club 7.5" gauge tracks, I've had some fun with my LARGE narrow gauge, diesel loco...

I'm doing freelance Two Foot on 7.5" gauge. I've built a narrow gauge diesel, road switcher, that I ride inside the cab of. Imagine the SP's GE 50-ton, now imagine chopping down to a 30-ton, 4 axle, two truck loco.... or see pictures in the files area, under "Marek Mountain".

My look is electric, uses RMI drives (they are great), has 7inch wheels and a steel frame. The frame is 23 inches wide and 72 inches long. And the 'end seals' are 1/4 plate, that is down to about 1.5 inches above the rails, at 23inches wide. The cab roof over-hang is 23.5 inches wide and 46-48 inches above rail (curved higher in center). And with me inside riding, it weights about 650 pounds (less than most other "road engines" at meets).

Now what I have found is, that several 7.5" gauge tracks did not really plan for a comfortable clearnance area round the train... but simply laid track and as long as the people did not hit their head or shoulders, sometimes a tree was not "to close". When the tree leans over the track, a 1.5" scale loco engineer may not hit his 6 inch wide head. But my 23in wide cab has issues. See pictures on my web-site with my temporary wood frame for checking clearances...

Running down the track, I have "plowed out" some cuts a bit with my pilot (acting like a plow), because the dirt tappered up above track level, a bit close to the track. Most switch-stands are far enough back though for 23in wide.

I call these "egg shaped" clearances. You side, a bit narrow at the bottom, gets wide around the lower mid section, narrow as it goes up and small at the top. Look at an egg, the idea of your feet, then butt, then shoulders and head clearance?

Now... if you run a 3in scale Steamer and its 28 inches wide... is that at the pilot beam level, or top of rail level, or at the cab roof level?

What I propose for clearances tests, is a rectangle sheet of plywood. For me, my home railroad, I'll use a 32 inch wide sheet that is 54 inches tall. That should give ME at least 6 inches on each side and above the roof, for clearance. Sliding the rectable sheet of plywood down the middle of the track.

Some have grumbled about the size of my loco. The real issue was, that the track had stuff to close for general comfort! My feet are INSIDE the cab or gondolas. A guy on 1.5" scale steamer kick-pegs are dang close to stuff that I barely miss.

I found one track where they had nailed down walking boards on a bridge and they came up almost an inch above the rails, just a few inches away from the rails. And there was a tree stump that was 3 inches above rail height, about 10 inches away from the rails.

I would suggest you "ride around" a track you visit, before you get out on the track, find you can't clear a tunnel or tree, and tie up the main line. More tracks are planning for NG stuff since it seems many new trains are being built NARROW GAUGE!

Frolin Marek
Marek Mountain Mining
San Antonio, Texas

Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 11:39:23 +1200
From: "John Clover"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge engines on any track

There was a problem at one New Zealand Club with a very precise supervising engineer who built exactly to the clearance standards ..so visiitng locos jumped or derailed at points ... or just didn't go through. A general problem as Clubs move from usually elevated circles of track to ground level systems with points etc etc. Locos which have not-quite-right B-B can have problems when they come down to the ground and meet points for the first time.
Dunedin New Zealand

Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:22:44 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Ref Narrow gauge equipment on standard track

Liked your note. And thanks for your tout of "doing" two foot prototype of Ywo Foot on 7 1/4"/7 1/2" track. Did you see my diatribe in 7+ ( the last newspaper format before switch to mag), especially touting Wiscasset, Watervlle and Farmington #52 Plymouth as a great prototype for the Live Steam hobby tracks?And think of WW&F #10 as a steamer prototype. Such a model would be slightly smaller than one of the Portland Forneys.

Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:33:17 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Ulin K-27


I see ads from Ulin Locomotive Works in Colorado regarding a 2-1/2" scale K27 locomotive appearing in the 7+ Railroader magazine. Are the castings and plans available now for the K27? Is the catalog worth $17? I am having a problem with that price. Is he just trying to scare off the tire kickers?


Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 23:44:43 -0500
From: "Ronald Koehler"

Subject: Re: Ulin K-27


I am currently building a Ulin Mason Bogie and have purchased from him the castings from him. If I recall correctly the price of the catalogue is deductible from the first order. So, technically it would then be free. Rich is known for his detail and authenticity. I believe he got weary of those just ordering catalogues with no intention of purchasing anything. His castings are not be described as inexpensive but they are excellent quality. He does offer the parts in sections which helps lower the cost considerably over buying one item at a time. This is how I could afford to buy mine one or two sections per year. His locomotives are true works of art and the castings are priced accordingly. They are not something that can be built quickly but when finished you will have a real head turner. I would highly recommend him as a supplier. When an order is placed he works on in feverously until you have your parts in hand. The bottom line is, Are you serious about building this locomotive? If so, the cost of the catalogue is insignificant. Hope this helps

Ron Koehler

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 01:09:32 EDT
From: BJWRR2@aol.com

Subject: Re: Ulin K-27

The first time I saw the Ulin Mason I had to stop and catch my breath. What a fine locomotive that is. What a beautiful engine.

If his Shay and K27 are made with the same quality and detail, they must be something else.

-Ed Kelley

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:24:50 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Ref Narrow gauge equipment on standard track

Puting my 2 Ft. oar in the water, there were a couple of things that came up when (too many years ago) I was moving towards a EARLY pORTLAND fORNEY Damned caps, with Don Marshal up in Woodstock, VT. as my guru. A couple of design pronlems were apparent, namely that any Forney in 3 3/4" scale is a stiff long leggeded beastie that will tend to straighten out any curve.

After checking about, we decided to "Masonize" the loco, pivoting the chassis (OK iy's an autumotive term) under the boiler As I recall this was the advice of Dave Roemer (sp?) heard now with Roll Models who did this to his SR&RL Forney after turning a couple of sets of wheel flanges into razor blades.

Another solutiowas made by a chap in South Africa who cheated a bit on his Maxi #7 and docked of the tank into a Lil old tender. This wasn't too noticable in a nice video he sent me subsequently lost when the chap I had loaned it to had his stuff cleared out when he died. Maybe I didn't notice the tankless tender, distracted by the large proper British brass steam dome.

Full size #7 would have been mortified. Have you all received the news that #7 is no longer at Edaville but is now up at Portland?

Cam Brown

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:48:12 -0000
From: "wsflco"

Subject: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

Looks pretty nice, although it's electric:

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:09:52 -0400
From: "Pat@Sn3.org"

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

I like this! Has anyone else done anything like this. Electric steam engine?

Pat Turner

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:23:21 -0400
From: "Michael Denning"

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

They've been doing it for years and calling it LIONEL !?!?!

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:36:01 -0400
From: "Pat@Sn3.org"

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

OH, I get it. You mean like this?
http://users2.ev1.net/~on30/ApexLionel.htm !!!

Pat Turner

Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:51:58 EDT
From: BJWRR2@aol.com

Subject: C-19 , electric "steam", etc.

That sure is a nice locomotive, even though it is electric. The listing is somewhat oxymoronic... "Electric Live Steam Locomotive"?!

This isn't the first like this. Tom Waterfall up at the Portola Valley & Alpine has been working on a battery-powered steam outline in 1.5" scale to run up at Pony Tracks Ranch. Also, P.A. Sturtevant (of Miniature Train Co. fame) built a 7-1/4" steam outline that ran on three-rail electric track. He ran it for his son in his backyard. Now we're talking oversized Lionels! It now runs on normal track with a generator on one of the cars.

A Bay Area backyard line owned by Gordon Adams (featured in the show "Bay Area Backroads" on KRON 4) which I believe is somewhere around 7-1/2 to 12" gauge (not certain), also has a battery-powered steam outline. He also built two nice looking live steamers for his line. He keeps everything under his house.

Dan Sawatsky, owner of Giggle Ridge Studios and Giggle Ridge Adventure Golf, is also building one of these battery-powered steam outlines. The locomotive is based on J. Wells' "Whitby" locomotive, "based" on a 2-foot prototype. It is a whimsical little 0-4-0 with "bobber" 4-wheel cars. Sawatsky's park is one of the best examples of theming in the industry today.

http://www.giggleridge.com /

-Ed Kelley

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 07:44:57 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: The "New" 7+ Railroader Magzine

Fellow 7+ railroaders,
I just got my first issue of the new "7+ Railroader" and all I can say is WOW. I started reading the new magazine after dinner and I couldn't put it down. I really enjoyed the old tabloid version of the publication and the new magazine version, with color pictures, is the icing on the cake. Greg and Susan Robinson have done a great job of taking the baton from the previous publisher Bob Williams, who we can thank for getting an "all train" livesteam publication off the ground. If you haven't seen the new "7+ Railroader" make it a point to get one. You won't be sorry.

P.S. I have nothing to do commercially with the magazine. I'm only a satisfied reader.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 08:24:11 EDT
From: rainbowsat@aol.com

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

At the FLS Winter meet thr Roll Models Exhibit had a tape of an electric Sweet Creek and I thought it was very "neat".
The look of the "clean" C-19 id interesting and there would most likely be model railroad building(my favorite)involved in an electric steamer.
Take Care,

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:37:37 -0400 From: "Pat@Sn3.org"

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

I also just noticed on the RMI web site that they plan to do their steamers in 2 1/2" scale next year!! This is to add to the line of 3 3/4" steamers they have now.
I can see it now, a 2 1/2" C&S 2-6-0 with three RMI electric motors...

Pat Turner

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:39:19 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: C-19 , electric "steam", etc.

Laugh at this all you hard core rivit counters, but there are many folk out here wanting to get into the hobby but
1. Can't afford live steam
2. Don't know much about real steam operation
3. Concerns about safety around little kids who could touch a hot boiler.

It is for these reasons I am building a 3" scale Climax Class A horiz boiler which was tested last month at the regular run day up at Portola Valley & Alpine. The comments recieved were positive and the locomotive already has a buyer! Now I got to get it finished!!!

Nuff said,
Jeff Badger

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 16:38:16 -0000
From: "crown36gage"

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

Sticks in my mind that I saw a picture of an electric narrow gage mogul in Florida about ten years ago. It was in MR or RMC, not a live steam mag.
--Denis Larrick

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 11:52:46 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge engines on any track

Hi Folks:

I agree with Don. The stability of the track has more effect on whether your loco rides well or not than anything. The actual center of gravity of an adult riding on top of a standard gauge model is not much different from the same adult riding (mostly) inside of a narrow gauge model. If the center of gravity of any loco or car gets outside the rail, it will tip over.

On my own 7-1/2" ga. "tramway", I'm following Sir Arthur Heywood's 15" gauge standard that: "the sleepers (ties) should project beyond the rails for a distance of rather more than half the gauge." The reasoning behind this dimension is that it's practically impossible for even untrained tampers to "high center" the track, because there is more tamping area outside the rails than between them. My ties are 18" long treated 2 by 4's, on 10-1/2" centers. If your axle loading is significantly higher than mine, you would need to close up the spacing some, always leaving enough room between the ties for whatever tamping tools you are using.

On the standard gauge, our track is only tamped for about eight inches or a foot on each side of the rail. The ballast under the centers and ends of the ties mostly just vibrates into place by itself under traffic. The ballast regulators and brooms help this process along, but it still isn't as "tight" as the tamped sections. If they are in a hurry to have a section of track back up to full speed, they have a giant diesel-powered "vibrator" that they run back and forth over the newly tamped track to "consolidate" it. The first three trains over the track are given 25 mph slow orders, and if nothing goes wrong, the track is immediately raised to track speed (60 mph on our Division).

The best way that I can see to insure stable 7-1/2" (or narrower) gauge track, with any length tie, is to not tamp between the rails at all. If you tamp outside of the rail, enough ballast will compact under the rail to properly support the track. With "standard gauge scale" size ties, on spacing too close to properly get a tool between them, tamp in from the ends. Then if, after running for a while, you get some sinking of the ballast in the center of the track, just fill it in and run a broom over it.


Mike Decker

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 20:26:48 EDT
From: yrfavsob@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 542


The $17 gets you the Mason Bogie, 3-Truck Shay and K-27 parts & drawings list, color photos of various stages of model completion plus a video of the bogie & shay. As the K27 is progressed additional sheets are mailed to you. I've been kicking around using the drivers which will make a very nice 33" size for 3" scale outside framed engines.

Dennis O'Berry

Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 21:32:33 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Digest Number 542


Thanks for the information. I have already mailed off the $17 for the catalog. What gauge will you run 3" scale on? 33" drivers are fairly tiny on a locomotive. What loco would you build?


Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 20:51:39 -0700
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Sure is quiet!

I can't tell, is there anybody out there?

Chiloquin, Oregon

Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 21:01:03 -0700
From: "Dennis & Marie Weaver"

Subject: RE: Sure is quiet!

No, everybody is getting ready to come to the Spring Meet!


Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 08:09:02 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Sure is quiet!

We're here. Just very busy with springtime projects. Mulching fruit tress, grading drivways, prepping/planting gardens etc. etc. Getting ready for a summer full of trains. I hope.

P.S. I have nothing to do commercially with the magazine. I'm only a satisfied reader.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:46:41 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 548

The Sunstrand unit is small and compact and is the straight thru design with the torque control and free -wheel button on the bottom oposite the plastic reservoir on top.... I dont know much about these units , except the desirability for RR. use..Got mine as salvage for peanuts, only to discover rotation problems...Got excited and bought the new motor only to be stalled by this new problem...'Since they are designed with direct drive in mind I was surprised to find the rotation opposite of gas motors....Now it seems I must do a bunch of mechanical Goldberg design to make it go.....

Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 07:14:36 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 548

Dave, I'm sorry, but that's the way it is. To reverse rotation, some different parts are usually needed. It might still be worthwhile to take it to a service shop for an opinion, but if it is salvage, the outlook isn't promising.

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 09:48:25 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

Is that anothere Cam Loosed upon the 7+ world?

Cam (Brown)

PS: My Cam is Cameron. What's yours?

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 11:04:01 -0400
From: "Pat@Sn3.org"

Subject: More new and improved web pages

OK, a few new and improved web pages are up.

For those looking for another web to buy and sell live steam stuff I have decided to post a "Yard Sale Page". All private ads are welcome and I will consider some commercial ads.


The Mid-South Movies page has been changed and updated with new movies.


My personal equipment pages have also been updated (with a lot of For Sale signs) and some new pictures.


And of course the main Live Steam page has been updated to reflect these changes.


Pat Turner

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:23:50 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 547

Got a sunstrand hydro-transmission, apparently wrong rotation.... Would I destroy it running it backards with my 5.5 Briggs for my Loco... ??? Building a No 5 DRG 2.5 scale..... DAveB

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:17:52 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Digest Number 547

I will not work properly and may do damage. How about turning it around and using a jack shaft with pulleys to transfer power to the other side?


Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:50:27 -0500

From: "Ronald Koehler"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 547

Good suggestion. I saw this done on a RR Supply diesel locomotive at LA Live Steamers a number of years ago. I believe it was a generator rather than hydro-transmission though. It worked fine.

Ron Koehler

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 18:02:57 EDT
From: rainbowsat@aol.com

Subject: Re: 2 1/2" C-19 on Ebay

My Cam is Cameron too. I am in fact in your Winter Live Steam Club (Largo Central) Or whatever they are calling it now. But I am building a 1.5" scale 2-8-0. The 2.5" was a little overwhelming! But I think my next project will be a Mich Cal Shay though!:-D
Take Care and Keep up Steam

Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:28:49 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 547

Reply: I agree with Jim, but more emphatically. Dave, you didn't mention what model of Sunstrand transmission you have, but you will surely damage the unit by running it backward. Most Sunstrand units are capable of being converted to opposite rotation by a distributor, if it is a current model.
Howard Springer

Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 20:28:59 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Sacramento Live Steamers Spring Meet

This past weekend SVLS held their annual spring meet. More than 150+ live steamers were in attendance and the weather for the most part was very nice. There are plenty of scenes and engines shown from the meet along with 8 Quick Time movies for your enjoyment. You can see Cal Tinkham's McKeen Car #22 in action that was featured last fall on the cover of Live Steam magazine. SVLS sure does hold a fun and enjoyable meet that I highly recommend attending if you are in the area!

Check out the meet at: Live Steaming In The Pacific Northwest & more!


Dan Morris

Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 04:24:27 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 549

Howard, is salvage a dirty word? This is a clean unit... A similar unit is some 500 dollars with shipping and all... I only assumed to buy it $50 worth for my loco project.. A dollar or two wont bother ....I s there a service center in the Chicago area..??... I love salvage as a raw material.. go to the re-cycler regularly and find all sorts of goodies....DaveB

Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 08:13:37 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 549

Dave - I didn't mean to convey any didtaste for salvage - use it myself whenever I'm lucky.

I'm from the Seattle area, so I'm not familiar with shops there. One complete rebuilder that may be able to help you is Attica Hydraulic Exchange Corp. Tel:800-422-4279. They don't advertise Sunstrand as a line, but may be able to suggest a local shop. Also, Berendsen Fluid Power Is, I believe, a nationwide distributor for Sunstrand. They should be in the classified pages under Hydraulic Equipment, and may have a local shop or contractor. Have all the nameplate info available if you call.

I'm leaving on vacation tomorrow, so I won't be around for a couple of weeks. Good luck.


Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 17:04:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rowland

Subject: Re: Digest Number 549

I believe that Sundstrand was either taken over or merged with Sauer-Danfoss. This is their web site:


Once you're there, click on the "Products" listing and follow the folder tree from there. They show all the different pumps, motors, and transmissions, and they may be able to help you. I deal with Berendsen Fluid Power here in California and they have always been very helpful.


Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 13:16:45 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Deep Cycle Marine Batteries

A superb source for frame 27 12V batteries is Costco(as used for Mercer's Steeple Cab engines). They have the frame 27 Heavy Duty batteries with ratings of 850/120 for less than $60.00 each. I have used these batteries since '96 and just replaced one of the pairs I purchased then.(they hadn't failed yet) I believe they also carry a frame 24 12V for a reasonable price.

Dan Morris

Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 15:11:00 -0000
From: "drs_rr"

Subject: any 7+ at GGLS meet this weekend coming up?

I'm going to be heading over to Tilden park to check out the Redwood Valleys 50th celebration on June 1st, I also see that the GGLS are having there spring meet and was curious if I'll see any 2.5 scale(or larger) equipement running out there?


Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 17:02:41 -0700
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: any 7+ at GGLS meet this weekend coming up


My partner and I are bringing our 2.5" in progress C-19 (projectrgs41.org), rolling chassis, on Sunday June 2nd. I understand that Pete Mosley is supposed to bring his 2.5" C-16 also on Sunday June 2nd.
Ken Burns

Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 20:42:41 -0500
From: "Mudhen"

Subject: RE: any 7+ at GGLS meet this weekend coming up?

Nice website & very inspirational.