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7-Plus-NGM Digest June 2000

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:34:31 -0500
From: "Mark Petersen"

Subject: Big Project



While on my recent vacation back home to the Chicago area, I've gotten involved with a guy who's building a full scale replica of the "Jupiter", just like the one built by O'Conner Engr. for the National Park Service in Utah. (He'd prefer to be anonymous at the moment.) Yes, I know it raises a million question about how & where, but he's determined to do it. In fact he's already converted his warehouse to an erection floor and has started making parts. Knowing of my railroad employment & museum background, he's asked me to assist him with this project. Since I'm a sucker for anything steam-powered on steel rails I said "Why not?"
He would like to save himself some time and not have to build an air compressor from the raw castings up. Anyone on the list know of a single stage air compressor for sale? It doesn't have to work, but it needs to be repairable if it doesn't. I realize this is a uncommon item, but any and all leads are appreciated. Feel free to correspond off list.
As this project develops I'll should have pictures to post so everyone can track the progress.

Thanks!
Mark Petersen
Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:05:50 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Big Project



Contact Bernie Watts in Colorado... Backshop Enterprises. He specializes in rebuilds of compressors. 303-424-6882

Good luck on that monumental task....

Jeff Badger

Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:22:30 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Big Project



Mark -

Suggest you contact the various museums and restoration projects around the world. Most of them have surplus items they will trade or sell.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:37:16 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Coupler Heigths



Allen -

JT&S uses the height published in Conway Locomotive Co.'s catalog which is 5.42". We then use adapter couplers in several forms to mate with cars using 1.5" scale couplers at 4.38".

One method which I favor is to slot the 2.5" scale knuckle and drill a vertical hole in the point of the knuckle, then install a pin in the hloe a-la 19th century logging RR practice.

Make up a few 1.5" scale dummy couplers with sawn off shanks that are fitted with a "U" strap that, when inserted in the two slots and the pin dropped through the holes in the ends of the straps gives you a good flexible adapter.

Rudy van Wingen, V.P.
JT&S RR Club & Museum

Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:39:11 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: What Happened?



No Hobbes -

We were all waiting to see how long it would take you to wake up and notice!

Love,

Calvin

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:50:50 -0400
From: Robert Herronen

Subject: Re: Re: Coupler Heigths



Rudy,

The coupler style you are referring to - is it the Janney style? They have a slotted knuckle that would accept a link. The link is placed in the slot in the knuckle and a pin dropped through the hole through the entire knuckle. You see these on a fair amount of the very old D&RGW narrow gauge cars. These knuckles were used during the time the railroads were going from link-pin couplers to automatic knuckle couplers.

We have, however, at times used the flag holder hole in the knuckle with a bolt before on the large equipment (mainly the RGS goose #7 and the 346 steam engine.) The geese have a large rod that acts like a link coupler. The rod is threaded on the end and slides into a special block on the front (or in a hole in the frame at the rear) and a nut run in. The other end has is welded to a plate that has a hole in it. If whatever the goose is to couple to has no easy way to couple, a bolt with large washers would be dropped through the afore-mentioned flag hole and have the goose tow bar (correct name for it) bolted to the top. That way if the nut fell off, the bolt would keep the rod up. This was done only a couple times that I recall and was only to move the goose which was not under power.

Something to think about for the modellers of the narrow gauge.

You all have a great weekend now ya hear!

-Robert Herronen

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 17:12:58 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: 100 members in 2 month



Hello all,

I'm proud and surprised, today we reached 100 members for our mailing - list.

That's much more than other mailing-lists of small-scale-narrow-gaugers have, and I'm really proud about this.

Congratulations to all the members

Hubert from Germany

Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 14:06:35 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: Traveling to Germany



I will be traveling to Germany for business and vacation from 13 July to 3 August. My travel will start in Munich.

I'm looking for steam, big or small, to visit while I am there. Travel anywhere in Germany or neighboring countries is possible.

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:14:13 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Coupler heights/adapters.



Bob -

Yes, the Janney was a good example, although I am not sure that it was the only one.

What is the "Flag Holder Hole"? I assume it was a hole in which the brakeman could stick a flag to indicate a stopped or parked car/train, but was/is it a standard feature on all couplers and where was it located (or was there a standard location)?

I am sure I have seen it but perhaps not realized what it was.

BTW: For those reading this that may not be aware, Joshua Tree & Southern RR Museum and Club (JT&SRR) is, to my knowledge, the only 7.5" gauge track built to 2.5" scale standards. We have operated for over 20 years with 2.5" scale, 1.5"/1.6" scale and 3.75" scale "mixed consists", so the coupler adapter problem has been one that has been with us for quite a while. When all else has failed, good old bailing wire has occasionally been pressed into service. We are always on the lookout for more and better solutions.

Rudy van Wingen, VP
JT&SRR

Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:20:15 -0700
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Re: Coupler heights/adapters.



The hole is still there on modern cars today. It is also still used to put a flag in for the end of train on "Locals". The hole is in the end of the knuckle and goes all the way through. Makes a good place to put a stick through to carry a new knuckle to replace a broken one. With the stick 2 people can carry one knuckle very easy as opposed to one person carrying one knuckle by himself! Cut a slot or 2 in it and you are all set for either link and pin or a modified coupler. Would even work on the prototype for light loads.

Pat

Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 10:36:09 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: Digest Number 51



Hi Linc,

please send me your schedule, where you will be in germany. Than I can look around, what might interesting for you.

Hubert

Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 12:09:02 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: SR & RL #24



I am looking for info on how the TRAILING truck attached to the engine and how the spring equalization worked for the trailing truck. Anyone with drawings or a link to find some?

sorry for any overlap on the lists

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:50:21 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: SR & RL #24



Hi Tom:

Most likely, I would say that the trailing truck works the same way as #23, shown in Bill Jensen's Two Foot Cyclopedia, Vol. 2. The rear truck radius bar pivots from a strap that goes from one side of the loco frame to the other side of the loco frame, under the firebox. In the widely published Baldwin #24 builder's photo, the pivot strap is attached to the frame just ahead of the white edge of the cab floor, bends in, and goes down behind the equalizing bar. The equalizing bar pivots vertically on a casting bolted to the loco frame just below the front end of the cab. The front of the truck equalizer ducks in and hangs on the bottom of the rear driver spring hanger which shows above the eccentric crank in the builder's photo. The rear of the truck equalizer hangs on a loop pivoted from the bar that connects the bottom of the front and rear (outside) swing links on the truck frame. The swing links connect two bottom bars that are bolted to the truck center plate, and two top bars that hold the spring seats for the two (on each side) coil springs on the truck. The radius bar keeps the journal box pedestals lined up with the springs. The truck center plate mates with a center pin on the bottom of the foot plate casting at the rear of the frame. The journal boxes will swing from side to side on curves, but the equalizing bar stays in one place, with the truck center plate. H. T. Crittenden's drawing of #24 has a lot of this detail, I think it is still available from some of the smaller scale drawing suppliers. There used to be a set of 1/2" (I think) scale copies of the 24's erecting drawings available from the guy who built the first 7-1/2" gauge one.

I hope this helps.

Mike Decker

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:18:03 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: What Happened?



Same to you, fella!

Have you taken the little red wagon down the grade lately?

What's the schedudule for the teutonic visit, and yours to the east coast, this summer? Are you going to be able to work in the real narrow gauge at So, Carver, Portland, Alna and/or Phillips?

H

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:44:27 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: SR & RL #24



Seems to me I remember "The Model Railroader" ran a compre4hensive set of drawings on #24 some years ago. Should show up in an index to month and year.

C

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:52:25 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RE: SR & RL #24



thanks for the tip. Are they correct?

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:58:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Mornin all; Got a question for anybody. Here's the deal. A group of guys in our club, the Tonawanda Creek Model Engineers are building 7 2 scale Fitchburg Northerns. Basicaly a 2-6-0. Each member picks a part that they feel comfortable with and makes enough for 7 engines. Well ist getting close to BOILER time. So here's my question. Has anybody out there completed the Fitchburg boiler to the prints provided? If so we would appreciate any comments or opinions on the construction in regards to materials used, design, finished results, steaming capabilities etc. I figure we should be steamin on down the line in about another 2 maybe 2 1/2 years. Till then I'll be switching around with my trusty #50 diesel and a few high side gons. Again were lookin for anybody's 2 cents worth of knowledge on the boilers. Tanx again, take care TC

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:33:17 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



I suggested before to post those questions in livesteamers@uwimona.edu.jm , as both the originator, Tom Rhodes, as well as the builder of the most shown model, Russell Steeve, are reading and posting in that list.
Arno

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:20:46 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Actually I don't think Tom is monitoring that list. Last year we both monitored, but neither he nor I have been able to succesfully re-subscribe to it....for what ever reason. Tom may be about to sign up with this list. I forward all the juicy photos and such to him.

Regarding the boiler on #34, it was designed and built by Marty Knox. I don't think there were any changes when Russ built his.
Don

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:44:24 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Hi Don,

saw you on Saturday. When I mosied over to say hello, you were gone again.

I never believed them, but they told me that you insinuated that there was actually something more important than trains! Preposterous.

Arno

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:42:22 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: RE: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Arno,
Tom informs me he had the good fortune to visit with you, I wish I had. My wife and I celebrate our anniversary on June 3rd of each year and allow nothing to stand in the way. This year it fell during our Spring Meet so my devotion was tested. Last September when the 2000 meet schedule was announced I informed everyone of my prior commitment. I've not found anyone who did not understand. Once every seven years our day will fall during that meet so it's not a bad price to pay to have both the best hobby and the best partner in the world.

I hope to have the opportunity to meet you again in the future,
Regards,
Don

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:46:15 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Old Subject 7.25 vs. 7.5



I mentioned our ongoing research project to find out where and when the 7.25 and 7.5" gauge mixup happened to a senior member of my club. He related that the old Disney train was 7.25" and it was one of the older installations in the west. He referred to an incident that he believed was the start of the whole thing. It seems that a gentleman, I can't remember the name, ordered a Northern from Little engines and specified 1.5" scale, 7.5" gauge. Well, Little Engines was not building anything in 1.5" so they built them to the customer's specifications. This meant they had to create a number of castings in this gauge and that's where it stuck for Little Engines. He recalls reading about the incident in a book by Porter(?). He has promised to let me borrow the book since I'm so keen on getting to the bottom of the issue.

He was surprised to read the 1944 article since he claims that the club referred to in the article was actually 7.25"! I just thought I'd relay this information, I don't know if it helps or makes matters worse.

He also cannot verify when our club installed 7.25" track since he's only been a member for 25 years.

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:08:37 -0000
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: SR & RL #24



You could try this site :

www.index.mrmag.com, which has a pretty comprehensive index of magazine articles etc. - SR&RL brings up 330 references for locos, stock, buildings and alsorts, a good percentage of them with drawings..

I didn't spot any plans of #24, though there seems to be at least one set for just about everything else. Model Railroader carried plans for an unnamed SR&RL 2-4-4T in June 1957, apparently, and there isa live steam model (in 15mm to the foot, 1.20.3) scale listed for Maine 2-foot modeller Vol 74a (Spring 95).

I find this is a pretty useful site, if only to tell me where to look in my own collection.

Hope this is a help.

Jonathan

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:08:09 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: RE: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Don,
you are being most kind.
My wife still talks about the ride you gave us last year in your Model "T".
Hope to be back next year.
Hard to stay away from such a great bunch of guys.

Cheers,
Arno

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:25:18 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



TC and all:
I too am working on a "Fitchburg", and had some questions of the original's builder. Tom Rhodes has been known to drop in on this list, as do other members of the Adirondak Live Steamers (Tom belongs to this group). He told me that both he and another gent from that neck of the woods have FNs and they would probably be a good source of info. Also, the company that makes the boilers for Gene Allen in California as well as other boiler makers may provide info on changes they would make if they were building the boiler for you. I was quited $1500 for a finished and tested FN boiler within the last 3 months. As I have built two copper boilers and never tried my hand or torch at a steel one, I think that sounds pretty good. (My wife might not agree, but I haven't asked her).
Don Bauer
(Maricopa Live Steamers, Arizona)

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:22:49 -0400
From: Russell G Steeves

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



TC ?

Marty Knox also built my boiler but he and I agreed on a few modifications to the original design as published in Live Steam. My fire box is wider (4.5" vs 4.0") which permitted me to use the larger Allen Mogul door castings. Since I used the same size schedule 40 pipe this increased the height of the side sheets requiring more stays there (15 ea. side). I also added a second row of stays (8 total) to the wider crown sheet and 2 below the fire door and 2 below the fire box tube sheet. All of my stays were 1/2 dia. for more corrosion allowance. The steam dome is simpler being a welded in single piece of heavy walled pipe edge tapped on top for 12 screws to secure a 3/8 thk. top plate. I retained the 22, 1/2 od copper flues and quickly learned that unless you were very careful firing and in your choice of soft coal they would plug in about two hours. However, I have since changed to anthracite pea coal and with that it steams very well and I can fire it indefinitely. You could use fewer larger flues if you like soft coal.

You may want to contact John Pilling (rwy536@gis.net) from our club (WLS). He is currently building 5 FNs. He has had some boilers built with these general modifications. I'm not sure who did his boilers.

Aren't you sorry you asked?

I too had a terrific time at the ALS Spring meet. Thanks so much, ALSers.

Russ Steeves
Fitchburg Northern #5
Chelmsford, MA

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:55:21
From: Ian McKinley

Subject: Re: Re: SR & RL #24



Hi All

Model Railroader June 1957 page 50 and 51. SR&RL 2-4-4T No. 9. Right side, front, back, and sec. through cab. Drawn to 3/16" scale. One photo of #9 and one photo of #10. Drawn for MR by Kenneth F. Olson.

Have Fun

Ian McKinley

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:24:30 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Stan:

As we have a number of new members, it might be useful to describe where we are on The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery.

In a 1944 article Lester Friend states that the BLS gauge for 1/8 scale is 7.5". Various other articles from as early as 1935 document 7.5" gauge railroads. Thus far we have no documentation for 7.25" gauge railroads. Prior to the exchange of e-mails earlier this year, the general feeling was that 7.25" was the original gauge in the New England area prior to W.W.II and that 7.5" was the "upstart" gauge in the west in the post-W.W.II era. At the moment, the evidence on the record shows that there was 7.5" before W.W.II in Michigan. To fill out the record, we need evidence of when the first 7.25" gauge tracks were built. Until we have that information on the record, the existing evidence indicates that the first tracks in North America were 7.5" and that the "upstarts" were 7.25"! While this may appear to be "politically incorrect," that is the present state of the record. Attached is the current Train Mountain Encyclopedia which has the full entry under Gauge (7.5" Vs 7.25").

Re the 1944 article, it does refer to New England Live Steamers track, but the only evidence I have seen suggests that NELS in its original location did not have any 1/8 scale track (either 7.25" or 7.5"), only smaller gauges.

While we are on the subject, there are a number of wonderful anomolies when it comes to gauge:

1. That the original Disney train was 7.25" has always been an interesting anomoly because it was 7.25" gauge equipment in the middle of 7.5" gauge territory. Does any of the extensive Disney literature say where he got his gauge?
2. Neither 7.5" nor 7.25" is one eighth scale. One eighth of 4' 8 1/2" (56.5") is 7.0625". But then, none of the smaller gauges are "correct." See Gauge and Scale in Train Mountain Encyclopedia.
3. Those of us who have 7.5" railroads actually have either 7 9/16" or 7 5/8" track spacing except for the rail at the frog of a switch which is 7.5". See the Track Gauge entry in Train Mountain Enclclopedia. I would be curious to know if those who have 7.25" railroads actually have 7 5/16 or 7 3/8" track spacing except for the rail at the frog of a switch which is 7.25".

Quentin

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:56:31 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties and 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Quentin,
On the subject of accurate gauge measurments and with your experiance with plastic tie material, how much if any do you allow for the heat / cold expansion of the plastic. I have done some tests myself with the plastic and it seems about 1/16" of gauge change can be expected with an 80 degree (F) change in temperature. I am about to start pre-drilling my ties and was wondering what I might allow for this expansion factor. I would like to post this on my "Why Plastic For Ties" section of my home page to give fellow hobbiests the info needed to use this everlasting tie material.
http://www.geocities.com/trainhead391/whyplastic.html

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:06:43 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties and 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Bruce:

When we build the track panels, the ambient temperature in the track shop is in the 60-70 degree range. We build everything at 7 5/8" spacing. We consider the amount of expansion and contraction of the ties to be negligible, as we don't run when the temperature is much below 40 and even in the direct sun, tie temperature rarely exceeds 100. Using your numbers, a maximum 40 degree variation from the assembly temperature, would mean a maximum of 1/32" expansion or contraction. Incidentally, we do not pre-drill, but use an Assembly Automation pneumatic screw gun which seems to work just fine. There is a video out showing the process, Building Track the Train Mountain Way. See Videos about Train Mountain in the Train Mountain Encyclopedia.

Quentin

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:05:08 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: What Happened?



Have you taken the little red wagon down the grade lately?

No, but I dusted off the transmogrifier the other day and it still works! No fun w/o Hobbes around to get googly eyed, tho!

What's the schedudule for the teutonic visit?

The Great Hubert and Christa Show arrives at LAX on the morning of August 21st,, after which we finish loading the Motorhome and head north. We plan on visiting with Paul Garin, and touring the Roll Models shop on the 22nd, then spending the 23rd in Sacramento visiting the CA RR Museum and Costco (so Hube can buy some pants). From there we will head north to TMRR arriving the afternoon of the 24th where, as soon as we have bought a leash and a license for Hubert we will turn him loose to run around under Christa's control.

Leaving TMRR we will join the Caravan south to LALS.

And yours to the east coast, his summer? Are you going to be able to work in the real narrow gauge at So, Carver, Portland, Alna and/or Phillips?

We ("Suzy" & Me) are arriving in Providence in the evening of July 29th where we will crash at a local motel. We will pick up our rental in the morning and drive down to Jamestown.

Our "must do's" include a trip to Keene, NH and Plainville, CT (business), a couple of days in Boston (in-laws), and a train trip to Manhattan (Honey do!).

Beyond that the itinerary is open. Don Buesing has extended an invite to visit; I would like to do that and perhaps see Tom Rhodes, too (Don't s'pose he'd take me for a boat ride). And then, there is good 'ol Hobbes...and of course "Suzy" wants to spend some time loafing around the beach house...

Perhaps you should send me a suggested itinerary?

Love,

Calvin (Rudy)

BTW: Did you notice that the 7+NGM just broke 100! We will also need to buy Hubert a bigger hat to cover his swelled head!

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:21:42 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Don -

Having built three boilers, two for C&S Moguls and one for Chuck Francis' D&RGW C-19, I would "leap - run, do not walk" to get the money to the builder if you are sure of his credentials and reliability. Copper flued steel boilers are no picnic even with the best of facilities, which I was fortunate enough to have.

'Course, having Chuck Francis looking over my shoulder with caliper and micrometer (I kid you not) was a little frustrating. Took me two weeks to convince Chuck that the calipers and mikes were for the decorative finishing touches on the outside of the boiler, not the shell itself.

Rudy van Wingen

BTW: I like your policy on price checking with the distaff side. They'll spend $1,500 on shoes, purse, frock and cosmetics and think nothing of it - but a hunk of steel and copper is beyond their ken.

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:45:39 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Do not know the why and wherefore of who built the boiler but a Fitchburgh Northern down Florida way had a lot of trouble with leaky tubes. I think this one was owned by a George Underwood.

cam

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 19:47:42 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Might be wives and family and/or Ford Model T's.

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:00:39 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Sorry to have missed you at ALS due to a prior wife induced commitment.

How goeth P&R #1, or is it #2, and companion SR#2, or is it #1?

Cam B

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:48:38 EDT
From: yrfavsob@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



That's because Chuck was influencd by Ken Barnhart- the ultimate perfectionist and and HOn3er to boot.

Dennis

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:34:27 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Photos at 6/2/00 Train Mountain



Rudy & 7-plus folks,
Having just returned from an excellent weekend of running (and two days of ballasting of track) at Train Mountain, I thought the 7 plus readers would appreciate a current snapshot view of several small areas of the facility. There are other web sites, including the Train Mountain web page which contain many more photos of the entire layout and it would not be appropriate to include similar photos in this posting. Some of the photos show the tremendous amount of effort and resources going into making the IBLS2000 event at Train Mountain this August a very special and significant activity.

The weather at this June event was fantastic, except for a very cool work day on Tuesday which I missed. Wednesday and Thursday work days were warm and lots got done. The Saturday evening banquet was especially delicious and there were a good number of locomotives fired up and out on the track for the traditional Saturday evening/night run. There must have been seven, eight or more locomotives going down the serpentine behind each other, spaced out of course, and with all the individual locomotive lights, it gave the track the appearance of a lighted Christmas tree.

A great time and I certainly hope everyone who is considering attending the August IBLS2000 meet will send their reservations in and plan to have a fantastic time.

PS: I'm sure lots of help would be most appreciated at the July Meet to help finish laying and ballasting the remaining track which will then provide several routes down from Central Station to the valley floor.

The following are subtitles to the photos. Rudy, I appreciate your sending the photos onto the 7-plus posting page since it seems I am unable to do so.

Doug

DFW101 Entrance to Train Mountain. Paving is nearly complete
DFW102 Transfer tables at loading facility have been improved and are excellent
DFW103 Snow capped mountains viewed from across Ellington steaming bay
DFW104 Portion of South storage yard
DFW105 Many 10 ft track panels are ready to lay
DFW106 Grading nearly complete along six acre campground
DFW107 Grading in process from upper level and tunnel
DFW108 Grading in process below Wedding Cake
DFW109 Looking up from Douglas Meadows toward caboose ridge
DFW110 Returning from a steam run around track. This young man is an excellent engineer and is full of enthusiasm DFW111 LITTLE COW CREEK RR engine. (sister of young man in photo DFW110)

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:42:57 -0000
From: "Roger Ellison"

Subject: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



What I'd like to know (and forgive me if you've covered this, I was not listening) is whether the 15" gauge guys build track at 15" actual gauge or somewhat wider? 15.125?

Roger Ellison
Thornbush Railway
San Juan Island

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:04:44 -0700
From: Russ Warr

Subject: Re: Photos at 6/2/00 Train Mountain



Having trouble trying to open the file. What program should i use??

Russ

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 05:54:19 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Photos at 6/2/00 Train Mountain



The photos have been loaded into the files section and may be viewed by going there and opening the "TMRR June Meet" file.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 01:29:21 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Ahem!!!!!!

I take exception to that last remark. I spend a lot more money on trains than I do on clothes, cosmetics, etc......................

Sharon

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:21:32 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Afraid this rambles a bit, but I hope its of interest..

The standard gauge in this country (the UK) for straight track was actually narrowed from 4'8&1/2" by either 2 or 3 mm (approx 100 thou) 10 or twenty years ago to improve stability and reduce hunting at high speeds (I believe this is also true for most Western European, I've heard this has also been done in at least some locations the US.)

Scaling up the TM gauging standards gives a full-size clearance of about an inch, which is about the limit for what was used on really severe curves (the greatest gauge widening I'm aware of was 4'9&3/4" used in Canada to get the Selkirk Texans round bends in the Rockies.).

Since the roots of 15" are in narrow gauge military and industrial railways rather than model engineering, I suspect that the ORIGINAL standards were that the gauge was only widened when severe curvature was encountered. In this country there are a couple of longish miniature 15" gauge lines, the more famous of which is the RH&DR. Trains there run at 25-30mph every day, and there are records of up to 60mph being achieved in the past, which points towards tight gauging on the main line track.

(For those who don't know, The RH&DR is probably the biggest trainset in the world. It was built in the 30's for the amusement of one Capt J.E.Howey and opened by the then Prince of Wales. It runs something like 10 miles down the kentish coast, most of that double track, and all fully signalled to British Mainline standards. The service is a a series of regular 'expresses' in each direction hauled by freelance models of British, Canadian and German Pacifics, plus a couple of mountains and diesels. Even now, the railway has a fair-sized full time staff, and runs all year round (they have a contract to transport the local kids to school amongst other things))

At the other end of the scale, some years ago, one of the town councils somewhere in England decided to put in a 15' gauge line in the local park, doing the track laying themselves and ordering in stock later. Unfortunately they misunderstood the meaning of 'gauge' and succeeded in laying track at 15 inch rail CENTRES, approximately 14 inch gauge. Severn Lamb then built a petrol powered D&RG look consolidation to suit. Later the gauge was widened to a true 15' to allow visits by engines from elsewhere, and it was found that the wheel treads on the consolidation were wide enough to allow it to operate unmodified. (All this was a rather more modest speeds than the RH&DR).

------

Does anyone know of a 2 1/2 inch scale model of either of the Unitah 2-6-6-2T mallets 50 or 51 (these later went to the Sumpter Valley as their 250/1 and where fitted with tenders and then on again third hand to South America.)

Jonathan J

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:03:44 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



2. Neither 7.5" nor 7.25" is one eighth scale. One eighth of 4' 8 1/2"(56.5") is 7.0625". But then, none of the smaller gauges are "correct."

Particularly as 7" is a nice round number, easy to work to and almost dead on scale - good enough for most people. Were the first models made to either 7" or 7&1/16" and the gauge of the track later widened to give additional clearance? This would have presumably happened in the last century to give 7.25" in Europe. There are several US modeling conventions where the gauge scales out to 5 foot (US O gauge is 1:48, on 1,25" gauge for example (the rest of the world uses 1:45 which is pretty much right, except the UK which uses 7mm:1foot (1:43.5) which is twice HO and still close)), and I wouldn't be surprised to find they all had similar origins.

Jonathan

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:07:58 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties....



How do plastic ties stand up to any derailments? Something like say a 2.5" scale D&RGW mikado must weigh a ton or more including tender, plus any train. Even at 7 mph theres a lot of energy involved and it's got to go somewhere.

Jonathan

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:45:06 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties..Another test completed



Jonathan and others,
With the asking of your question, I just performed yet another test on my plastic tie material. I took a heavy, dull (to represent a wheel flange) axe and gave the tie a good CHOP on one if it's sides. I then took a wood tie and did the same. The results were almost equal. The axe cut (more like dented) into the ties almost the same amount. I then gave them both an equaly amount of choppings (14 total) until the wood tie finally fell apart. This would represent more than one derailed wheel. I kept chopping at the plastic tie until I got tired. It really was able to take a beating without actually breaking down. It looks like it got caught under the lawn mower but is still quite strong.
One thing that can be said is that even though the plastic tie was dented, the moisture that would enter the dent would not affect the plastic. With the wood tie, this dent would be a place where moisture could enter and cause premature tie rotting.
So now I've done a drillability / screwability test, a fire test, a cold/ heat expansion test, a hot cinder test, and a derailment test on the plastic tie material. Can anybody think of any other tests they would like to see done? My test facility is open for suggestons.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:53:19 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties..Another test completed



Wow! That was quick.

You're gonna hate me for this, but I can think of a couple of points that might be of interest.. (I should point out I'm not building a line of my own(our back yard is about 15' by 20'), I'm just obtuse)

With the test as it, how did the plastic deform when hit the first few times? The way I imagine it, 4 things could have happened, either on they're own or in combination:

1) The plastic just compressed, so that the shape of the tie after the blow was as though you'd taken a normal tie and filed a notch in it.
2) The plastic tie became wider at the point of impact and flattened out (like hitting a plastecine tie).
3) The tie bent around the impact to form an angle (ie the bottom surface stretched, and the top compressed)
4) the tie stretched out longditudinally at the point of impact.


1 and 2 are fine, just not particularly pretty, 3 and 4 aren't so hot because they're tacking the track out of gauge, and in the case of 3 possibly deforming it vertically as well.

(My guess is that some combination of 2,3 and 4 probably happened)

You also might want to revise the test so that the axe (or whatever) strikes a glancing blow on one edge - a derailed wheel will tend to bounce along the leading edges of each of the sleepers in line rather than strike square on. This is much more abrasive I suspect - in real life (low speed) derailments, wooden sleepers tend to be 'worn away' in relatively small chips as each wheel acts like a saw tooth in turn.

A full size equivalent of these tests were carried out about 30-40 years ago, when concrete sleepers (ties) were first introduced in this country - British Rail took an old 0-4-4T and various items of rolling stock and performed a series of deliberate derailments at various speeds to see what the effect was. More violent experiments have been carried out to test crash worthiness of rolling stock, most spectacularly when the CEGB took one of their (empty) nuclear material transport flasks, placed it on the tracks at the optimum (ie worst) angle and crashed a train head on into it at 100 mph. The flask won by a country mile...

One other thought on plastic ties - are they insulating? If so, you can use track circuits to detect trains and maybe control signalling.

Jonathan

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:34:41 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties..Another test completed



Ok you want detailed results....

I did hit the tie on the corner as a wheel would do if it derailed.
The axe made a 1/4" deep x 3/16" wide (at it's deepest and widest point) dent in the corner of the tie.
The deformation could be described as a raised portion around the dent.
Higher at the corner and less as the dent depth decreased.
No change in tie length or straightness were witnessed.

This would suggest that the upward pusing of the material was the result of material displcement from the axe. Instead of pushing the material to the side, the path of least resistance was upward in a localized area around the axe blade.
I would say your third quess was most accurate BUT no gauge change overall tie characteristics (straightness or length) were altered.

I did a conductivity test with my meter set on it's most sensitive reading. There was 000 conductivity over "ANY length of the tie when dry. Even at close range and between two scres that were driven in at 1 inch apart, still no reading. I then wet the tie under the tap an took another reading. This time at 7 1/4 inches I got a reading of 10M ohms. I get more conductivity holding the two probes in my two hands.
For comparison, A wood tie that has been sitting out in the sun for 3 days without rain gets a reading of 15M ohms between two screws at 7 1/4"

I should point out I'm not building a line of my own(our back yard is about 15' by 20'), I'm just obtuse)

No excuse....I first had a test track that was only 30 feet long...you could run one diagonally to get maximum travel time ;-)

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:49:25 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Hi Roger:

At Sandley's we built the track to 15" gauge on the straights, and had a three-point track gauge for curves that widened it some. I can't say how much widening occured for sure, but most of our curves were standard gauge size anyway. We pre-drilled most of our ties with a four-spindle drilling machine, and just used the gauge for special work, like switches or sharp curves. Our wheels were a "sloppy" fit in the 15" gauge, as I recall about 1/4" narrow, but I'd have to look and see if I have a drawing to find out for sure.

Mike Decker

Decker's Trains
Rt. 1, Box 102-E
Hot Springs, SD 57747
605-745-5487

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:04:57 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Roger,

All those tracks I am aware of have widened the gauge slightly, and more so on curves. For example, you can see the Erich Thomsen standards for 15" guage, 5"=1' scale, at http://hometown.aol.com/rvrytrain/index.html.

For 12" gauge I widen the gauge by 1/8" on straight track and 5/16" on 50' radius curves. (No Pacifics or Northerns on this line) :-)

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A. 12" gauge railroad

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:42:01 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



My sincere apologies Sharon; it was not meant as a sexist remark, simply "fact" as many of us married to really wonderful gals see it. My beautiful wife (and friend) of 33 years spends money very well on the items mentioned, and I don't begrudge her a cent of it; but show her a steam locomotive and she is extremely indifferent. I go to the track, she goes shopping - it works for us and for many other males in the hobby.

You are obviously a "different breed" and are a welcome change from the typical live steamer. Not only do you like trains, but narrow gauge ones as well; and I'll bet you don't call 'em "cute", either! Hopefully, you will be at TMRR IBLS 2K and I will have an opportunity to meet you and apologize in person...

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:53:33 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: Plastic Ties..Another test completed



Ok you want detailed results....

Sorry, I'm an engineer by trade, and I've got a theory that if you try your hardest to break something yourself (and maybe employ some tame idiots to check idiot proofing) it might last 6 months when someone else gets their hands on it and abuses it (sorry, that should read use sympathetically and entirely according to the instructions.). No offence intended to your test program.

No excuse....I first had a test track that was only 30 feet >long...you could run one diagonally to get maximum travel time ;-)

If I open the garage door and go through that, I should be able to get the best part of 35 feet. Unfortunately the garage is 15 inches lower than the yard, so I'll have to run out on some kind of trestle... That'll allow a 2 scale G8 and 2 cars to go about 20 feet.

Actually, thinking about it, I've got more room upstairs - if I start in our bedroom, and run across the landing into the opposite room, I can get 50 feet of so as long as I don't mind 10' radius curves at the end. And I won't get wet. Have you done any tests on the effects of oils, cinders etc. on deep pile carpet. Better ask first I guess.

Alternatively, I could go back to plan A and run at the local club track...

Jonathan

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:55:26 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Files: DF101+ Folder/TMRR June Meet Photos



Those of you visiting the Files section to see Doug Wilkinson's photos of the TMRR June activities will note that Photos 103, 104, 109 - 111 are missing. For some reason I couldn't get them to load, so they have been sent to "Herr Doktor Hubert" for evaluation and, hopefully, successful insertion. I'm sure "Hube" will let us know if and when he is successful.

Thank you for sharing these pictures with us, Doug. The changes and amount of work done since last summer is amazing and impressive. I am looking forward to seeing the "finished" product in August. Of course, we realize that TMRR is a work in progress that truly never will be finished, which is as it should be. Even if it were, Quentin would probably tear half of it out and start over....

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:38:17 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: Digest Number 55



Hi all,

I just uploaded some more photos, Rudy sent to me for checking out, why he couldn't upload them. Also, I renamed the folder to " TMRR June Meet ".

Thank's to the informations of Rudy, I was able to update my vacation-schedule. You can view the complete schedule under http://www.wetekamp.de/vac2000.htm

Hubert

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:01:34 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Re: What Happened?



Rudy,
Email me offlist for ALS side trip and boat ride scheduling.
Don

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:32:48 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



I don't think there was much modeling going on in Europe before 1900.

Your "nice round number" would rather be 7-1/2" for 1:8, relative to your 5" for 1:12. I know, I know most UK models are to a scale of 1:1-1/16, TODAY.

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:20:34 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Rudy/C

Chivalry ist nein kaput. H

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:38:18 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Gee Cam,
It's hard enough to keep up with you normally..... and now your talking French!
Don

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:29:30 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: RE: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Can't be french, that generally sounds much more insulting (and is elegant with it - I've heard it called 'delightfully rude').

Jonathan

Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:12:57 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Sterling, Colorado station



To support the rebirth of steam in eastern Colorado, the Rio Grande has just completed a water tank and is building a station to service the branch line to Gene's Foundry. To see photos of this new construction, go to Files and look in the file labeled "Sterling Station". [sorry, no longer available]

Gene Skoglund is the contractor. Right now he's trying to find a breed of weed that grows to proper 2.5" scale height; as you will see from the photos he has a real problem there. His "K" series locos will end up with weeds in the counterbalances just like the 12"=1' ones.

Gene has very generously offered the pattern and core for the tank band casting to Como Roundhouse Products, so all you guys out there who have held off building that tank 'cause you couldn't get the casting have no more excuses!

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:17:10 -0700
From: "Turner Family"

Subject: Re: Sterling, Colorado station



OK, so any idea how much for them and when will they be available?

Pat

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:32:48 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Rudy,

Thanks for the apology, but I was just throwing my two cents worth in.

Do you have any idea what its like to be a woman and tell your husband, who by the way did not like trains, that you want to by a 3ft ga. locomotive?

Talk about hollering and squawking about spending money. I thought he'd never get over it. He wanted to buy a new motorcycle. So I gave him one for his birthday.

I got my train three years later, but it was a standard gauge.

But my love is steam and narrow gauge. I was a member of the Shay Racing Team in Iowa some years back.

Sharon

Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:35:13 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Definitely not French, but mein herr is into German.

You guys are a crack up!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right Cam, Chivalry is not kaput.

Sharon

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:56:26 +0100
From: Mike Woodroffe

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Hi

At the Rhiew Valley Light railway, in Welsh Wales, we build to 15" guage using pre cut metal bars as guages and sash clamps to prevent building over guage. On curves we allow a little tolerance. All our rolling stock is slightly under guage with wide flanges which gives us quite a good tolerance, which we need because as we are operating on a working farm we do get quite a lot of sheep and cattle lying on the track which causes quite a lot of track "modification". The stone we use as ballast must hold the heat, during the summer, which then makes an attracrive "bed".

Mike Woodroffe
Rhiew Valley Light Railway
(15" Guage Narrow Guage Outline)

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:53:41 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Sharon

Just back from weekly LS fix at ALS where your byplay on the proper avenue for a person of the female persuasion to spend money was discussed. Didn't know of your graciousness in buying hubby a bike. Talk about casting your bread upon the waters! And having it come back a NG steamer! Good investment.

Perchance was hubby part of Amerride (or something that sounds like that) at Lake George, NY this past week? 50,000 estimated attendees. From non scientific survey coming down the Northway it seems that there was a ratio of about 3-4 single riders to those bikes with a MM riding the fender seat. This works out to a theoretical 40,000 mostly Harleys in one little town. This is a quiet crowd, lawyers, bankers and small tradesman tacked out in their leathers feeling wild.

I tried to explain to Don Buesing this noon (he's the one who complained about my lack of language clarity) that RvanW and I use this strange sort of semisubliminal communication developed over the years that is hard for anyone to understand. Even ourselves.

Cam Brown

PS: Tom Rhodes has a nedw neat little C&S bobber caboose also up at ALS now. Proper looking NG consist now with his D&RG high side gon and Fitchburgh Northern #35. Of course, I had left my camera home.

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:05:57 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Betcha that you meant the wheels have wide treads on your 15" ga., sheep infested railroad, Not Flanges. This goes to the heart of my insidious campaign that could have NG prototype models tweaked so that they will be operable on eitrher 7 1/4" or 7 1/2" gauge - no guarded frogs of course - with wider within reason wheel treads and flanges to some standard that does not screw things up.

I'm recalling something that is unprovable at the moment but I recall reading that the last ICC report on the Bridgeton and Harrison (or Saco River if you fancy) that the gauge had "grown" here and there a couple of inches or so. With wide treads, the equipment stayed on the track. Most of the time. I know of no major derailments in the last couple of years.

Cam Brown

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:30:35 -0500
From: "SharonDeckard"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern boilers



Cam,

No my ex-hubby was not in your Amerride, but in past years we used to do the famous or infamous Colorado River Run.

I now ride a Yamaha Venture Royale when I get the urge to go trainspotting.

Sharon

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 04:00:33 -0000
From: Russ@xor.net

Subject: Re: 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



Interesting note.

The rails in Russia are exactly 5 feet apart. 1/8 of 5 feet is exactly 7.5 inches. Did someone way back when want to build a model of a Russian train to exact detail? The quest continues.

Russ

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:09:03 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Addition to "Sterling Station" folder in "FILES"



You have to see this one. It puts it all in perspective, with the "master builder" leaning up against the tank. This is what 2.5" scale is all about. Given that Gene is very photogenic (and in damn good shape for his age), you have to imagine Miller's K-36 next to that tank instead of Gene...

Enjoy! Also, send money to the "Buy Gene A Tree" fund. He must've cut 'em all down for lumber to build the tank and station!

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:12:16 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Chivalry ist nein kaput...



Hobbes:

Jealous, are we?

Calvin

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:20:34 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Tank Strap Casting cost and availabilty...



Well, first we have to get the pattern and core box from Gene. Then we have to make umpty ump copies and mount 'em to a commercial pattern board, 'cause Gene uses a home foundry and our foundry uses a completely different board.

Once we get the first board's worth (first article) then the foundry will let us know the cost/board; we add in the development cost, board production cost, amortized board life cost, commissions and sales costs, a reasonable profit....If we're lucky, we'll have castings to sell and a price by early fall.

How many shall I put you on the reserve list for?

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 05:48:10 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: On Chivalry, Hobbes, and life...



Thanks for the apology, but I was just throwing my two cents worth in.

Whew! Dodged that bullet...eat your heart out Hobbes (aka CAM).

Do you have any idea what its like to be a woman and tell your husband, who by the way did not like trains, that you want to by a 3ft ga. locomotive?

Thank the Lord no!

Talk about hollering and squawking about spending money. I thought he'd never get over it. He wanted to buy a new motorcycle. So I gave him one for his birthday.

Sounds like me when good wife Esther wants to go to Europe or buy furniture...

I got my train three years later, but it was a standard gauge.

Oh well, them's the breaks!

But my love is steam and narrow gauge. I was a member of the Shay Racing Team in Iowa some years back.

Now there's a story waiting to be told!

Sharon, you sound like a lady it would be fun to know. Can we park your Hubby and his Hog with a beer somewhere in sight while we have a chat? From the way Hobbes (aka CAM) is carrying on, it sounds as though you may be an east coaster. I asked once before - any chance are you going to IBLS 2K at Train Mountain?

One thing is for sure; you have GOT to smell better than 'ol Cam after a run behind steam. Incidentally, Cam and I both are inveterate fans of the defunct comic strip "Calvin & Hobbes". You may be too young to remember it, or have other wise missed it. Calvin (me) comes first; of course, so he is the most important. Cam (Hobbes) is just a lowly pussycat, and a pretty disreputable one at that, so he of course comes second. Suzy (aka Esther), the long suffering heroin of the strip (Guuurlllss, yechhh), prevailed and got lucky enough to marry Calvin. The good lord alone knows what poor long suffering lady ended up stuck with Cam.

Well, enough of this personal stuff on a public forum. May your imagination soar and you dream of steam in the Rockies (instead of that silly 2' stuff Hobbes likes).

Hopefully yours,

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:30:40 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: On Chivalry, Hobbes, and life...



Heroin of the strip? Freudian slip?

Hobbes

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:50:44 +0100
From: Mike Woodroffe

Subject: Re: Re: The Great 7.5"/7.25" Gauge Mystery



You're right I don't know my tread from my flange, or is it ar?? from elbow.

On the subject of guage tolerances we do find that we can get away with quite a bit. I am not exactly sure how much but I wouldn't be surprised to find we have over guage sections as much as 3/8 inch out. I will do some measuring next time we run and let you know.

I agree with you completely on the 7 1/4 - 7 1/2 point. I see no reason why sufficient tolerances can't be built in at all.

Mike
(Rhiew Valley Sheep Infested 15" Light Railway)

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:09:57 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Final Chapter on The Great 7 1/2" and 7 1/4" Gauge Mystery?



The following information was taken from "Master Railroad Builder" by Steve Booth, ISBN 0-941178-03-X:

In the late 30's a banker in the Chicago area, Bruce Achor, decided to build a New York Hudson in 1.5" scale. While visiting the 7.25" railroad of Horace P. Shaw in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan he asked what the gauge was. Shaw told him it was 7.5" at least that's what Achor recalled. Achor travelled around and some of his friends built railroads in the same scale/gauge combination. Word got back to Martin Lewis at Little Engines and that's why they started out with the same scale/gauge combination. By a 1952 survey 52.5% was 7.25, 40% was 7.5", and the rest was unreported.

Disney researched the before building Carolwood and Pacific. He originally planned to build to 7 1/16" until he found that 1.5" hobby started in England with 7.25". Martin Lewis tried to convince Walt of the merits of 7.5" but he decided to move forward with 7.25"

Achor's line was later moved to form the nucleus of the 'Tipsico Lakeshore' and re gauged to 7.25".

If the information above is correct I think we can stop our search.

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:40:04 -0400
From: Joe

Subject: Re: Source of rail...



Once again I've been snagged by the live steam bug, and maybe this time it's caught tight enough I'll take the plunge. I was glad to discover your group (I'm a diehard narrow gauge fan), but have debated for months (actually, years) now as to whether to try 1-1/2 or 2-1/2. I sure would welcome your (biased) input!

Also:

1) Living in northern Pennsylvania, what's a good source for rail? I'm not looking for a lot, just enough to lay up a few feet to set a car or two on...at least for now.
2) What are the major suppliers for 2 1/2"??? (Again, living east of the Mississippi probably doesn't help!)
3) What scale (1-1/2 or 2-1/2) has a larger following (numbers of followers, not physical size!)??
4) Is there a similar E-group for 1-1/2 narrow gauge?


Thanks for your input!

Joe Fuss

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:39:22 -0400
From: Tansj@sloan.wnyric.org

Subject: Re: Source of rail...



Joe: stay with the most common ,stay with 1 1/2 7 1/4" for the north east area,also look at the allen models castings and drawing or roger cook locomotive works for possible engine selection
Joe
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:17:46 -0400
From: "Bruce"
Subject: Re: Source of rail...

Joe,
Are you considering 1 1/2" scale narrow gauge for 4 3/4" gauge track or just a standard gauge 1 1/2" scale loco for 7 1/4" gauge? It's real fun running a 2 1/2" scale locomotive (7 1/4" gauge) as you can almost fit down behind the cab. Also, the little detail parts are harder to break off when they are on a bigger scaled loco. If your a "Narrow Minded" guy like me stick with a narrow gauge model. Building a locomotive is a big undertaking. You might as well make what you want. I haven't seen too many 1 1/2" scale (4 3/4" gauge) narrow gauge equipment in my time but 2 1/2" scale is making it's presence known at area tracks as well as in magazine articles.
The only 2 1/2" scale supplier east of the Miss. would be Rogers Cooke Locomotive works in Parsippany NJ.(973-887-0084) He has "some" 2 1/2" scale plans and castings. I'm not sure if he offers a full loco kit.
Conway Locomotive Works (818-854-1660)has narrow gauge car and locomtive kits. Mostly wetern narrow gauge in style. As does Como Roundhouse (818-792-2639). Allen Models (805-967-2095) offers 2 narrow gauge locomotives as well as standard gauge. One more company that is selling 2 1/2" scale is Roll Models (559-441-8686) All of these companies are in California.
If you are going to use the rail you are looking for just for disply, you might consider asking a club if they have some used rail they would let you have at a reasonable price or less. I used to offer rail for sale but the extruder just raised the minimum order up from 600 to 1000 pounds per order and they raised the price 10 cents per pound AND the shipping cost to me has gone up. Triple wammy!! I can't justify that much of a cash layout to have it sit in my shop. I am about to start laying track on my private railroad and I have just about enough to complete my run. If I find that I am short, I will order more and try to sell what is left over.
As for the Bug? Take a shot of warm steam cylinder oil and inhale some coal smoke. Call me in the morning.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:42:45 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: I still can't hear the fat lady!



The Master Railroad Builder books lists Shaw's railroad as being 7.25".

I am looking at a Lester Friend Catalog #3 and I don't see any mention of 7.5" gauge. Page 27 of this catalog is a table of standards. It shows a Back to Back measurement of 6-3/4" for "West Coast 7"". Yes, West Coast 7", whatever that was.

I have a copy of the Disney book on the way, I'll see if it sheds any more light on the subject.

The "Master Railroad Builder" is a must have for the 7+ railroad folks. It is out of print and I can't find a copy for myself. If anyone has a source I would be in your debt. I must return this copy on Saturday at our spring meet. (PVLS)
Stan

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:43:36 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: I still can't hear the fat lady!



Hi Stan, et. al.:

My copy of the Disney railroad book says: "Back at the studio, Eddie Sargent calculated that standard track gauge converted into 1/8 scale would fall somewhere between 7-1/16 inches and 7-1/2 inches. He decided to compromise at 7-1/4, to allow for 30-foot radius curves."

So...apparently the Carolwood Pacific was built at 7-1/4", because the guy that did the track layout liked it, not because it was a "standard" for 1-1/2" scale.

Mike Decker

Decker's Trains
Rt. 1, Box 102-E
Hot Springs, SD 57747
605-745-5487

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:50:53 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Source of rail...



Joe,
Regarding your hesitancy in selecting a model size and type. Let your personal feelings direct you. Building a live steamer is a long term project and building something just because others like it may not satisfy you in the long run and particularly on those long winter nights grinding away fabricating some mundane part. Look at the transitions from 1" scale to 1 1/2" and you can begin to see a trend toward larger scales like 1.6, 2 1/2" and 3 1/2." I just love my latest, a 2 1/2" scale locomotive with sit-in tender, cattle (propane) car and caboose.

If you are able to stand being different and can do it, go for what feels best for you and not just run with the sheep.

Doug from Seattle

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:35:51 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Digest library



Hubert:

So far I have been saving each digest as it comes in. That seems counterproductive and a waste of 'puter memory. How long will the messages be saved on the eGroups system? There is a wealth of information already, and it would be a shame to lose it, but I suspect that eGroups must have a limit.

When, and if, that limit is reached (annually?) will there be a backup archive somewhere? Wouldn't it be nice if someone were to organize the information in an Index that would link a researcher to the pertinent messages? Any volunteers?

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:08:53 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Master Railroad Builder



I have posted the scans from Master Railroad Builder that refer to the start of the 7.5" gauge. I have also scanned the original Shaw 7.25" Live Steamer as well as Lester Friend's 7.25" deisel.

I misquoted the book, it was Shaw's loco that went to Tipsico without a gauge change. If this book is correct then we now know where the 7.5" gauge was started. It also brings into question the Lester Friend article which states he used 7.5" gauge. My contact in our club also says Friend ran 7.25"

The scans can be found at:

www.7-plus-ngm.org/gauge.htm

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:10:27 -0400

Subject: Wider is better?



While riding on one of our live steamers this weekend I noticed we don't have much clearence between engines and a couple roadside signals. Do any of the clubs have restrictions on width of engines or cars? My chosen prototypes are two foot gauge (600mm) which could be a little wide on our track.

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:28:28 -0700
From: Don Dickens

Subject: Re: Wider is better?



When I began experimenting with the idea of narrow gauge on the 7+ tracks I found that the trick was to keep your foot rests within the profile of the equipment. The standard gauge models have their foot pegs outside their profile and that's where the extra clearance can come from.

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:42:07 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Boiler water treatment...



The following referral just came in via snail-mail from Al McCue in Virginia; go to http://www.steam-locomotive.com to see his work. Al recommends this stuff highly; I have sent inquiries to some folks I know that operate the Daylight to see if they have any experience with it.

The web site is http://www.terlyn.com/steamboiler.htm; check it out and let me know what you think or know...

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:44:02 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...



Rudy,
I would expect that each locality has a favorite boiler compound supplier and what is important is that all of us, Live Steamers, should be using boiler compound.

In the Pacific Northwest, a local supplier in the Seattle area is Wesmar Co., Inc. 1451 NW 46 Seattle, WA 98107 1-800-824-4917.

What they have recommended to me is their product known as SAVERITE BWT 210W. Their brochure does mention that their compound, liquid, "SAVERITE BWT 210W is authorized for use in federally inspected food plants by the USDA for boiler water treatment where the steam directly contacts the food product." I guess the relationship to food stuffs and our locomotives is a stretch, but at least it has some reliability of being safe to be around.

Doug in Seattle

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:47:04 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Sunset Steam Models



Hi:
Does anyone know the whereabouts of the Sunset Steam Models line of stuff. Who was (or is) Sunset, and are any of the products available?
Don Bauer

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:10:06 -0400
From: Jimmy

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...



I just bought a 50 pound bag of Sodium Sulfite for steam boiler treatment. This should be used for those having steel boilers. My boiler inspector said that dry cleaning plants use it for their steel boilers to prevent the free oxygen in the water from pitting the steel. I got mine from a chemical/swimming pool supplier.

Jimmy in Virginia

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:18:15 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



Jimmy,
Would you mind posting the directions for use of this chemical? I have some without a label and no instructions. I understand, however, that a _very_ small amount per gallon of water is required.
Rich D.

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:27:08 -0400
From: Jimmy

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



My 50 pound bag has no directions either for use, just all the warning statements. My water tank holds 40 gallons of water, and I was going to start with about a 1/3 cup in the feed water tank. I was told that it does take a while (several hours??) for the chemical to do it's job. I'm open to any suggustions from others who may have used this chemical.

Jimmy

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:18:58 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



Jimmy,
After thinking about it, a Nalco rep told me that, as a rule, you might be safe by adding one grain per gallon. One grain=.0021 oz. A very small amount. He also said the water must be alkiline and to add as much (lye works) as sulfite. This all amounts to a pinch to a loco tender full. I don't know what happens if you over do it, altho a friend did and there was white stuff forming at every leak point.

Search of the web we have:
http://www.2spi.com/catalog/msds/msds09730.html (msds)
http://www.rothpump.com/CHEMCALC2.htm (calculation of cost)
http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_sulfite.htm (supplier list)
http://www.watersupply.com/chems/boiler/products-display.html (see 1123)
http://www.cleaver-brooks.com/Service11.html (See following)more at site Controlling Alkalinity
Alkalinity control is vital to the success of any internal boiler treatment program. Alkalinity in a boiler system protects the unit against attack and maintains the proper pH level for the necessary chemical reactions to occur. Just as importantly, alkalinity provides hydroxyl ions, which form an insoluble ferrous hydroxide film on metal.

The level of alkalinity required in a boiler system depends upon several factors. Most often, however, the level of alkalinity is related to the operating pressure of the boiler. Table 1 shows the relationship between boiler pressure and alkalinity levels in a typical firetube boiler without process restrictions on steam purity.

In situations where the calcium and magnesium hardness has been removed mechanically through the use of a sodium exchange softener, alkalinity control can be achieved without the addition of chemical alkalinity builders. A feedwater analysis will show whether proper alkalinity can be achieved without the use of supplemental chemicals.

Controlling Dissolved Gases When dissolved in natural water, carbon dioxide and oxygen greatly increase corrosion.
Given boiler system temperatures, even small amounts of oxygen can cause severe damage in the form of pitting.
Removal of oxygen, carbon dioxide, and other noncondensible gases from boiler feedwater is vital to boiler equipment longevity as well as safety. (note the need for alkalinity)
http://www.pacechem.com/steamboilers.htm
Raw water sources can have varying amounts of corrosive gases. Dissolved oxygen is highly corrosive in steam boiler systems if not properly reduced by an oxygen scavenger. The undesired result is extremely localized pitting, causing rapid deterioration of the boiler tubes and leading to tube replacement.

A call to your local Calgon or Nalco rep will no doubt help. Without knowing the actual dissolved oxygen content in _your_ water, you may be shooting in the dark.
Rich D.

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:31:38 -0700
From: "Orrin B. Iseminger"

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



Allow me to jump in, here. One hundred parts per million (100-ppm) should be more than enough; however, I don't know of a supplier of test equipment for the live steamer. One could do a Web search for Hach Chemical. This company supplies a variety of easy-to-operate test kits for a number of chemical measurements.

Tri-sodium phosphate is a good chemical for establishing the needed alkaline pH of boiler water. It's much safer than lye, sodium hydroxide. It would seem as though ordinary litmus paper could be used to test for pH. A pH of slightly below 11 will work.

Orrin B. Iseminger
Colton, Washington, USA
http://users.moscow.com/oiseming/lc_ant_p/index.htm

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:10:43 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...



While the steam from treated water (using the Saverite .....) may be "safe" the chemical itself in its raw state (before being put in the boiler) is EXTREMELY CAUSTIC.

Regards,
George Potter
(who still has his gallon of this stuff)

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:40:13 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



If you are serious about boiler water treatment, a west coast supplier is Mike Foley at polychem@pchem.com . You send a sample (quart) of water to them, they test it, send you a report, and sell you the chemicals for treatment. They have boiler water test kits too so you can adjust the treatment as needed. I buy it four gallon jugs at a time. I add 8 to 9 oz. of treatment to a tender holding 40 gallons of water once per day. I go through about 175 to 200 gallons of water in a day's operation. A standard water softener system (Culligan) was also required in my case.

Regards,

Jim Hoback Sonora Short Line Railway
12" gauge, 1:3 Scale
Tuolumne, California, U.S.A.

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:29:40 -0400
From: Jimmy

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



I use TSP in the boiler water, however, watch out where you buy it.There is so called TSP in places like Home Depot and Loew's building supply places, with TSP in large letters on the box, but when you read the contents, it's really something else. I had to go to a paint (only) store to get real TSP. I use a water test kit made for testing swiming pools (from Wal-Mart), as the water here is very acid.

Jimmy

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:39:24 -0400
From: Jimmy

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



I put too much TSP into the feed water about two weeks ago, and one jet in my injector came loose, and it failed to pick up water. I had to dismantal the injector and re-tighten the jet.

Jimmy

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:36:36 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



Semi-Pro Comments on boiler water treatment: I'll shall try my best not to start telling war/horror stories in this are. maybe one.

recent e-mail exchanges have included honored names in BW treatment like Nalco and Hatch(? on that one for sp.) Remember that the big business for these folks are in high pressure power boilers and not in areas where LS muck about in. Find a local rep, buy him a libation and offer him and family a ride and i bet you'll get a lot of good advice focussed on your particular situation especially the quality of water you use, As I recall from my retired status, the grains of calcium hardness is key. One does not want dead soft water which is VERY corrosive. One wants to build up and maintain, a thin, hard carbonate coating on your metal which is the best protection.

War story: At a ALS meet a couple of years ago, someone recommended some particular Fairy Dust to add to the tender. Subject figured if one shot was good, two might be better. Had to go backl to the steaming bays when all the loosened scale started to plug up valves. Couldn't even blow the whistle.

No one answer for this one, which keeps a lot of manufacturer's reps. and company tech ex[erts busy.

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:08:42 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Boiler water treatment...Sodium Sulfite



Hi Folks:

When we started using boiler treatment at Wisconsin Dells on the 15" ga. Riverside & Great Northern, the 128's boiler had been in service for about 18 years without any kind of treatment, except daily blow-downs and monthly wash-outs. The boiler treatment salesman told us that when the treatment started working, one day all that accumulation would come down. It did! We had to wash out three days in a row to get all the old crud out of the boiler. But...after that, the blow-downs and wash-outs kept the inside of the boiler as clean as new, with the thin film on the sheets that Jubilated refered to.

The treatment was a liquid, and as I recall (from 23 years away) I put in about a cup for 200 gallons of water. Don't quote me on the amount though, as I said, it was a while ago. My war story concerns the treatment cup and the water tank: We kept the Pyrex cup on one of the water tank footings. One day, after treating the tender, I stood up too close to the edge of the water tank. The tank didn't move a bit...and you really do see "stars" when you hit the top of your head that hard :-)

That's my little contribution.

Mike Decker

Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:57:26 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Catching Up



Checking up on myself, did a reply of mine to one of the recent exchanges on boiler water treatment make it to the 7+NGM list? I have it on my sent mail but I cannot recall it showing on the listing on the e-group. In my usual style, it was long on length, probably short on content. Akey phrase to remember was the warning that dead soft water is very corrosive and one would desire some carbonate hardness in the water you stick in the tender.

That's not why I write. In trying to chuck out stuff before the eventual estate sale, I came across a sample copy of "Mechanical Engineering Design" which I hadn't realized I had as it came while we were south. Heavy on a lot of stuff on CAD and patching that into visual simulation and automatic translation into machining of prototype parts untouched by human hands.Sounds like Kurt Vonnegut (sp.?) ion "Player Piano" where, in the future, everyone is either in the army, works for the Highway Dept. or GE and if something goes wrong, noone knows how to fix it. Shades of Aynn (sp?) Rand? Anyway, the last page saved it for the railroad fraternity. Chap named Bryan Attewell has a website, which I have not called up, "www.battewell.freeserve.co.uk "...fromthere they can download a program that will satisfy (and occasionaly frustrate0 their yen to drive a steam locomotive."

It may take an IBM mainframe to run.for all I know. Article says it's written in TurboPascal to run under MS-DOS. If my scanner worked I'd unload this page as it looks very interesting to those who know a) what the computer jargon means and b0 how to run a steamer. Available routes to run in the States are between Laramie and Cheyenne and another from Frisco to LA.

If you screw up on anything "... the train ride is abruptly ended." Happy trails.

Newsletter from my beloved Wiscasset 2 ft. group this noon's mail. They have just used up their last bit of 56# rail. Anyone have a couple of miles loaded for donation FOB Sheepscot Station, ME.?

Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:27:47 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: Re: Frame side drawing



Hi Rudy,

Got it Hube; should not be a problem. I will make you four sets of rods, 8 rods total, and package them in a cardboard tube for ease of handling.

thank you very much. For the package, I think, it could be better to pack them in the suitcase. I've done that before with an oildipstick and fitting pipe for my first Chevy-Van, and for handling, that's much easier.

BTW: Did you ever get my question about the archiving of the 7+NGM sessions and how long "back sessions" will be available on the site? Also, about getting soemone to index 'em by subject matter?

Yes, I got your question.

The reason, why I not answered it until yet is, that I'm still waiting for an answer from egroups-support. Their first answer was for the file-section, not for the messages as requested. So, I asked another time, and now I'm waiting.

As I found out from another list, the 20 MByte space for the files is not attacked by the messages.

And for indexing, no one has offered to be a volunteer. I think, it would be the best, if someone from the states will do this, because my language might be not good enough for this. And at last, not enough time from my side.

Thank you

Hube

Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:06:43 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: (Fwd) Re: Question about the storage-time for messages [#40501



Hello all,

I received the following message to my request.

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:20:24 +0530
From: support@egroups.net
Subject: Re: Question about the storage-time for messages [#4050123]
To: hubert.wetekamp@t-online.de

Hello,

The size, 20mb, refers to both files and messages. When this maximum is reached the oldest files/messages are deleted from the system, to maintain the 20mb limit.

Thank you for contacting eGroups Technical Support.

eGroups Technical Support
------- End of forwarded message -------

I cannot believe that, because I know from other mailing-lists, that they have many mails in the archive, no files, and the page says, they have full available space of 20 MByte.

On the other hand, I store all digest (without the attached pictures), and can set up a special folder with the mails.

Someone interested to volunteer to sort the information and store them somewhere (at egroups or on my server)?

As written in my last mail to Rudy, it would be the best, if someone from an english speaking country will do this, because my language is not good enough.

All the best

Hubert

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 17:57:21 +0100
From: hubert@wetekamp.de

Subject: (Fwd) [emn] Important Announcement



------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:27:03 -0700
From: The eGroups Team
To: eGroups-Moderator-News@egroups.com
Subject: [emn] Important Announcement


Dear eGroups Moderator:

eGroups is very pleased to announce that we are joining the Yahoo! family of services! To learn more about the announcement, you can read the press release at http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/000628/ca_yahoo.html

As a group moderator, you can assure your group members that eGroups and Yahoo! will continue to provide the same level of service and commitment that you have come to expect from both companies. We are very excited about extending the opportunities and new offerings that will emerge from this relationship to you and your group. We're just beginning to explore the possibilities and new features that we'll be able to offer as a combined company. As we go through this process, we pledge to solicit your feedback on any proposed changes and keep you up-to-date on any changes to the eGroups service.

We are committed to sharing accurate and timely information with you about the service and the merger as it becomes available, but at thistime, we don't have any specific details beyond what's included in the press release. We will keep you posted, but in the meantime, please continue to use the service as normal.

Thank you,

The folks at eGroups and Yahoo! Customer Care

------- End of forwarded message -------

Hubert

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:20:38 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Important Announcement



I got the same email for a list I moderate, I think it can only mean good things for the list. It should open us up to a larger audience with the power of Yahoo behind it.

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:57:22 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: I still can't hear the fat lady!



Dear Group:

Train Mountain now has 181 engines and 611 people registered for IBLS 2000 in August. Attached is the data. We expect the engine numbers to top out at about 200 and the people numbers to top out at about 700. The registration fee goes up from $30 to $35 per person on July 1. You can download an IBLS 2000 Registration Form from www.trainmountain.org.

Quentin

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:18:25 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: I still can't hear the fat lady!



Quentin; This comitted (able) narrow gauger ( 7 1/4" and 2 foot) loives vicarioussly through your e-mail with the IBLS bunch at Train Moiuntain even without a snowballs chance of being ther.

No need for me to wish that you all have a great time - I know you shall.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:25:56 -0000
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Pics added



Here are a few old pics of 2 1/2" scale stuff I took at the 1996 Garden RR convention in Orlando, Fla.

The first ones are of Goose #2. If anyone knows who owns the Goose so we can give credit for the work please let me know. He lives near Merit Island/Cocoa.





The second set is of ET&WNC equipment and he lives in the same area. I also would like to know his name.





Pat

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:45:57 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Pics added - Overexciting Hubert



Pat -

I think that dripping noise you hear coming from Germany is Hubert wetting his pants over Goose #2; he is probably already figuring out a way to save up the money to buy it!

Rudy van Wingen