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7-Plus-NGM Digest June 2004

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 17:21:58 -0000
From: "Dave"

Subject: GGLS open house June 6th?



Saw the Golden Gate Live Steamers are having an open house on June 6th, anyone going to have the equipment out there. Will have the family along with me checking everything out, hope to see a RMI Davenport switcher there.

Thanks,
Dave

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 11:31:18 -0700
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Raw materials



i have an endless supply of free cast iron and silica brass.

That's a neat trick. How did you arrange that?

-Greg

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 14:42:15 -0700
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: GGLS open house June 6th?



Dave,
Kim Beard and I will be showing the RGS 41(2.5") in progress.
Ken Burns
www.projectrgs41.org

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:28:39 -0000
From: "Dave"

Subject: Re: GGLS open house June 6th?



Ken,

Look forward to seeing your project...checked out your web page...wow..really impressive to see all the 2.5" scale engines being built.

Dave

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 23:45:31 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Memorial Day, 2004 Meet at LALS comments.



Memorial Day Spring Meet at LALS this year saw some nice equipment and interesting projects on display.
Bruce Ward brought the chassis (two engine sections with wheels, cylinders and rods on plus the interconnecting bridge for the boiler, etc.) of a 0-4-0+0-4-0 Garrett.
There were engines from American to Challenger, in several scales, and geared locomotives also.
John Mueller, Roger and Babe! Netz came over from Phoenix with John's C-16. Sunday John borrowed a string of 10 NG cars and walked them up a 2.6% grade from a standing start, with people in the riding cars. It sounded like the recordings I have heard of NG trains, with some echo off the cliff sides.
Some very nice stack music was also generated by the Challenger with a train load of passengers going up the same grade.
There were of course 'diesel' models there also, some with engines some with batteries, and an very nice looking electric Locomotve model (I forgot the road but it was marked as a class C6) with a B-B- B-B arrangement as two sets articulated together then bridged with the frame for the control section.
A number of riding track cars were in use in the evenings, with one small one a hand velociped.
Many visitors from several states were in attendance, and several vendors had displays of nice looking scale parts and equipment.
I enjoyed a Spegetti (Spelling?)with meat sause, Italian sassage, roll dinner Friday night, but missed the main, Saturday evening, meal and entertainment due to other commitments.
I will eventually post digital filee of photos of Bruce Ward's Garrett project in the group site's Photos section.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 16:49:35 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Memorial Day, 2004 Meet at LALS comments.



William,

Don't leave us dangling. What was the prototype for this locomotive?
What scale and gauge? We will see the pictures when???? :o))

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:20:28 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Memorial Day, 2004 Meet at LALS comments.



Unfortunatly I do not have notes on the details of the Garrett. I will need to ask Bruce to either post to the group or e-mail me with the info so I can copy it to a post.
The loco was on 7.5 inch gauge steaming bay off one of the original turntable rings at LALS, this one was rebuilt with 20ft table and revised bays a couple of decades ago, and the other one still has the original table but revised bays (for 4.75 gauge (1 in scale) and ?? gauge (3/4 in scale). The 20 ft table has 3 gauge/6 rail with multigauge unloading bays and a transfer track between the two turntables.

I will try to get the photos converted and posted this evening.
Bruce Ward is listed in the LALS Roster with his e-mail address if you have access to one.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:53:12 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Photos Uploaded of Bruce Ward's Garrett project chassis.



I have uploaded 640x480 60% jpg files of Bruce Ward's Garrett Project chassis as displayed at Los Angeles Live Steamers Memorial Day / Spring Meet taken on May 30, 2004 to a new photo album "Garrett Project" in the Photos section of this site.











The chassis is parked on a steaming bay off the 20ft 3 gauge / 6 rail turntable adjacent to the transfer bay to the small guages turntable.It is built to 7.5 inch guage.

I will ask Bruce to either post the details or e-mail the details to me so I may post them.

Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 21:03:59 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: Memorial Day, 2004 Meet at LALS comments.



Unfortunatly I do not have notes on the details of the Garrett. I will need to ask Bruce to either post to the group or e-mail me with the info so I can copy it to a post.

Thanks for that.

The loco was on 7.5 inch gauge steaming bay off one of the original turntable rings at LALS, this one was rebuilt with 20ft table and revised bays a couple of decades ago, and the other one still has the original table but revised bays (for 4.75 gauge (1 in scale) and ?? gauge (3/4 in scale). The 20 ft table has 3 gauge/6 rail with multigauge unloading bays and a transfer track between the two turntables.

The Garratt I am working on is 3 3/4" scale as the original is from a 2' gauge railroad. It will run on 7.5" track and will have a ride in cab. Once it is finished I will not care about adverse weather conditions because I will be inside snug and warm with the side curtains down. I the heat I'll open the sunroof and pull up the floor mats to let the air flow through as best it can.

I will try to get the photos converted and posted this evening. Bruce Ward is listed in the LALS Roster with his e-mail address if you have access to one.

I have an LALS acquaintance who may be able to assist on this part.
kind regards
Dennis

Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 21:15:07 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Photos Uploaded of Bruce Ward's Garrett project chassis.



I have uploaded 640x480 60% jpg files of Bruce Ward's Garrett Project chassis as displayed at Los Angeles Live Steamers Memorial Day / Spring Meet taken on May 30, 2004 to a new photo album "Garrett Project" in the Photos section of this site.

Ah, sir, you're a gentleman and a scholar.

The chassis is parked on a steaming bay off the 20ft 3 gauge / 6 rail turntable adjacent to the transfer bay to the small guages turntable. It is built to 7.5 inch guage.

It is most likely a 1.6" scale model from the looks of the chassis. It looks to be an interesting project and it would be great to be kept apprised of ist progress.

I will ask Bruce to either post the details or e-mail the details to me so I may post them.>

Again I thank you.

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 06:26:32 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Bruce Ward's Garrett project



Bruce Ward's Garratt is a model of the "William Francis" 0-4-0 + 0-4-0 (Beyer-Peacock 6841 Built Manchester, England 1937) that worked at the Baddesley Coal mine in England. The Prototype still survives and is kept at the Bressingham steam Museum in Diss, Norfolk, England.

TH

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 08:27:53 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: Bruce Ward's Garrett project



Trevor,

Thanks for the information, I should have known you'd know the answer.
Heard anything from our happy wanderer, in the last few days?

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:16:31 -0700
From: "james broome"

Subject: Ulin Shay



Anyone have any experience building or running this engine? Also what size prototype shay is it based on?

Thanks,
James

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 07:57:51 -0500
From: "whiteoakfarm1"

Subject: Ulin Shay - WSLC #14



The Ulin shay is a model of West Side Lumber Co. #14, a three truck shay.
The books on the West Side Lumber Company operations have the details, as does the all time shay list that is on the web.
Model is 2.5 inches to the foot so the 3 foot gauge prototype scales out to run on 7.5 inch gauge for the model.
For photos, see C&IG links below. Richard Ulin also built WSLC #15.
Rick White
http://home.att.net/~rick-white/SteelSwitch/2004-0522/index.htm for R&M Lines Steel Switch
for two 2003 SWLS meets http://home.att.net/~whiteoakfarm/ for two 2003 SWLS meets
for C&IG Spring 2003 meets http://home.att.net/~lsr-nmra/CIG2003Spring/index.html for C&IG Spring 2003 meets
for Rick's WB&S photos http://home.att.net/~rickwhite/ for Rick's WB&S photos
for Rick's HALS photos http://home.att.net/~rick_white/ for Rick's HALS photos
http://home.att.net/~cigrr/2001Fall/ for C&IG Fall 2001 Meet
for C&IG Spring Meet and Fling 2002 Meet http://home.att.net/~rick-white/ for C&IG Spring Meet and Fling 2002 Meet
HALS
SWLS
SVLS
MLS

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 16:00:41 -0700
From: "james broome"

Subject: Re: Ulin Shay - WSLC #14



That tells me all I need to know. A friend And I were discussing the possibility of building a local prototype in 2.5 scale and was interested in whether or not the Ulin castings would make a good starting point. Since I have some old published drawings of the WS engines stashed away that should tell me much. I don't know if I'll get into this project but wanted to examine the possibilities.

Thanks,
James

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 07:45:02 -0500
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Ulin Shay - WSLC #14



Does Richard Ulin have a url/web site?
or is on line with info about building a WSLC shay?
This is a project I would like to try, if I could come up with the needed castings.
I have been to that area in California near Yosemite Park and ridden behind some of the shays used at WSLC many years ago as well as the one used at Mount Pleasant, Iowa, which as I recall is the # 9 or # 10.

Thomas

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:32:48 -0500
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Ulin Shay - WSLC #14



Ulin Locomotive Works
1160 Lilac Street
Broomfield, Colorado 80020
Tele:303-466-8241

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 14:14:43 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Weston Park Railway



Received a note from Bruce Walley who runs the Weston Park Railway near Telford in Shropshire, England that he expects three D&RGW K36 loco's to attend his meeting the weekend of June 19th and 20th 2004

TH

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:50:01 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Cowans Point Railway



Photo's from last weeks visit to the Cowans Point Railway in BC, Canada can be found here

http://www.livesteaming.com/Cowans%20Point%20Railway.htm

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 21:35:41 -0000
From: "Dave"

Subject: A good engine and other equipment for a newbie in this hobby....



Was curious what peoples opinions are for an engine for someone just getting started in this hobby. I have been a model railroader all my life as far back as I can remember. I also remember being a youngster when visiting an uncle in bay area and my folks taking us over and riding the minature steam trains(which is now the GGLS, but probably at their previous location) I have been fascinated with narrow gauge riding railroads for a while, and have checked out several of the web pages, some of the company links and (and since living in northern califonria for last 15 years) go out to the GGLS a couple of times a year to observe and catch a ride on the club train. This past weekend I went to the GGLS open house, did alot of observations, talked with a few poeple, but mostly took photo's and admired everyones craftsmanship.
I like the looks of the RMI products, especially the Davenport 0-4-0 (D&RGW #50...aka SV #101), this past weekend there was an 25ton 0-4-0 switcher at the GGLS that looked pretty good too..and seemed very reasonable for a first engine. What to put behind it, a flat car I take it, maybe a gondola?
I'm looking for opinions from the people of this groups on what they consider a good start. I know I don't want steam(ok...I would, but lets be honest...start out with something simple and easy..then work my way up to it) also at the same token, you want to get a good bang for your buck, something reliable and easy to maintain.

Open for suggestions,

Dave Salamon
Tracy, CA

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 22:51:51 -0000
From: "Dave"

Subject: GGLS open house photo's



I posted a couple of the photo's I took sunday, they are in the photo section under GGLS open house....




RMI Davenport diesel



C-16



an excellent start!





RGS 41



couldn't resist this



LARGE scale


some great looking projects...

Thanks,
Dave

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 00:31:22 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: GGLS open house photo's



Dear Dave,
IMHO a good beginner's set is a small gas-mechanical locomotive and a small, two passenger riding and control car. If you fit the locomotive and riding car with brakes, and are motivated, you can use the pair to learn operating techniques and the track operating rules without the added learing curve, and distractions, of firing a steam boiler at the same time.
It also makes a relativly easily transportable set to travel and visit other areas and tracks.
Later, you might consider a 0-4-0(t) project and then use the same riding car for operating the Steam Locomotive.
Once you are confortable with operating within the 'rules and regulations' your home track, you might add one or two riding cars to allow carring friends as passengers and to get use to operating longer and heavier trains.
Brakes, both manual and power, should be fitted to be safe.
As for the size, or scale, I would suggest 2.5 inch scale as being the most interesting for a start. It gives you a slightly wider riding car base and if you make the trucks and frame from steel, it will have a relativly low center of gravity loaded. In general try to keep the center of gravity of both the car and the locomotive low for general stability.
I hope this is of use.
Best Regards,

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 22:23:19 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: A good engine and other equipment for a newbie in this hobb...



I agree the # 50 is a great looking locomotive and would be a great starter unit. I have built several and am finishing up a narrow gauge mogul right now and will make myself a # 50 just because I like it. I would suggest a gondola or two for versatility to be able to carry people and other items. I am partial to narrow gauge.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 02:59:37 -0000
From: "bocamikey"

Subject: Midwest USA Steam



I have been reading about steam on the Internet for a long time and never heard about this one until I just watched a 10 year old video about "Toy Trains". Are we missing a hidden treasure here?

http://www.michigancity.com/Hesston/Hesston.html

cheers,
Michale
Florida
USA
Iron Naut

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:06:59 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: First Engine



The RMI loco is a very good one to start with we have several diffrent versions that operate along with several of there speeders all work very well and the batterys last quite well also, they I think also have a gas version of some of there engines. If you have any riding cars I would recomend that they be flat cars as cars with sides are very dangerous when they derail with passingers as they are trapped in the car and cant get there feet down to prevent them from falling. Most of our riding cars at Train Mountain where I am a member are flat cars or versions without sides for that reason. Good luck with the hobby as there are many who will be of great help down your way. Boyd Butler

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 08:53:21 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: A good engine and other equipment for a newbie in this hobb...



I am prompted by Dave Salamon"s note and , I think, a RMI connected reply that I read out of sequence.

Being a few weeks away from being an octogenarian, I might claim a succesion of senior moments. Or maybe it is simply my well developed procrastination on display but I admit that I owe 7+ and the Robinson's and all you narrow gauge types out there info on a neat litle critter to model.

Thiis item is locomotive #50, not from the D&RGW at Chama on three foot gauge, but engine #50 of the Wiscasset, Waterville & Farmington at Alna' Maine on two foot gauge.You will probabley find her (is it proper to anthropomorphize diesels as we do steamers?) picture on the WW&F web site. The previous publisher had ask me to translate my reasonably-accurate-but-free-hand sketch to CAD. Never got a CAD course when offered as I was mistaken as an executive.

This doesn't alter the face that this #50 would be, is, a great prototype to consider.
Hint to Roll Models: I did play about a bit in reshrouding your chassis transmogrifying a nice three footer into a most pleasing model of this two foot gauge #50 deisel.

This 'lil deisel has nice lines. Some others, to my eye, look a bit grotesaque.

Cam Brown

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 10:25:53 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: First Engine



The only thing I will mildly disagree with Boyd is the choice of riding car. A version of ride astride cars with a very low centre of gravity is much better to use. The most obvious reason is that in the event of a derailment or a tip over the people can get more easily into a standing position from their riding position. When you are sitting down with your knees above your hips it is extremely more difficult to get into a standing position.

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:16:56 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: A good engine and other equipment for a newbie in this hobb...



RE: WW&F #50. Would you post the internet address for the group that has the photos and drawings?
Alternativly, would you post them in this Groups Files or Photos sections?
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 19:19:01 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: First Engine



RE: Riding car type. I think Dennis has a very good point.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 23:31:00 -0400
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: RE: Re: First Engine



The problem with being able to put your foot or leg out is that it can then be caught or otherwise landed on top of by the derailed car. My wife has a scar to prove it. Cars with sides prevent that, but also have the problem of falling over the side in a derailment. Until someone keeps track of numbers of derailments of each type of car and the injuries sustained, saying one type of car is better than another is pointless without the numbers to back it up. It is all just personal opinion. Of course this is my personal opinion and I just pointed out what that is worth...

Pat Turner

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:49:48 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: First engine



What ever you decide, we would all choose something different, find someone who owns one and try for a good test dive before buying.

TH

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:28:36 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler" >

Subject: Riding Cars



If your knees are that high your seats are too low mine are not like that and are very easy to get up out of like othes, the ones you are thinking of are very hard to get up from for anyone and are as bad as haveing sides on your car to step over. I use the Russ Wood design seat bottoms on my flat cars and one that I built for another fellow. If you sit too high it can cause problems with the CG being too high so there is a middle road that one must find as you build your seats and mount them on your car.
Boyd Butler.

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 02:32:49 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Seats



Oh yes forgot the type of seat we use is the ones used in boats with a back on them as rides on Train Mountain take quite some time its very nice to have those back rests, I also put one on my RMI speeder and what a diffrence it makes too. It seem that anymore for some reason I like more padding than the RMI speeder seat has.
Boyd Butler

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:14:43 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Riding Cars



Boyd,

Not really sure, but I think we're agreeing but arguing semantics. :o)

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:27:12 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Riding Cars



Two Cents Worth: Largo Central Railroad, surprisingly enough in Largo Central Park, Largo, FL has a contractural obligation t with the city to have public run days on the first full weekend of each month. Can't supply chapter and verse on the design but they are straddle cars with foot boards on each side parralel with the raised seat runnong end to end. I think they are now all two truck units ( a few converted from original articulated two unit, three truck jobs) couplers and safety chains.
I.ve seen some somewhere basically of this design following the prototype bundlrd lumber carriers. Appears as though the central pierced metal web holding the seat is lower than correct scale to lower the center og gravity.

Cam Brown

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:41:27 -0700
From: "james broome"

Subject: chloe boiler



Anyone know the diameter for the Chloe boiler?

Thanks,
James

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:30:33 EDT
From: crpnut@cs.com

Subject: First Engine



My wife and I have one of the RMI 65 ton switchers. We bought it as our first engine back in 2000, and have enjoyed it every minute we have had it.
Other than the lenght of time it took to build it and get it from them( the factory) I can't complain about it or RMI as a company.

Charlie R.

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:33:43 -0400
From: "George Erhart"

Subject: RE: First Engine



I also own a RMI 25 ton switcher (battery). I purchased mine in kit form just after they started offering engines. The engine works just fine and at the time, was less than $2000 in kit form. It took them more than a year to send the assembly instructions. (I had finished building the engine by then!) The product is top notch.

George

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:33:30 EDT
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Re:Chloe boiler



According to the Allen Models catalog, the Chloe boiler is 5 9/16 inches diameter.

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:12:27 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: chloe boiler



i built a Chloe and everyone reccomended using a 6" Std. pipe for the boiler. you get extra steam room and water capacity and more room for flues. the engine is not an exact scale of the original, from what i hear, so it shouldn't matter too much and you get a better running engine.
fred v

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:50:19 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Car Sides



The reason why the car sides are not used on Train Mountain riding cars and most others is if a car starts to derail one can catch themselves rather than fall over with the car is our experience and the riders seem to favor them as they don't feel so confined. All of the Over The Hill riding cars that we use for the public have no sides and we don't have any trouble with people putting there feet down while in motion they are instructed at the start of the ride and are observed during the ride by the conductor riding in the last seat in the last car of the train. Also the cars with sides on them with passengers seem to roll on there sides sometimes as the people cant catch there balance due to the fact they cant get there foot down to do it. That is our reasoning behind the cars without sides on them and is the reason why Q went to flats and is using all of his gons as in train cars with fixed loads in them. Boyd Butler

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:53:51 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Comments



The comments about the seats and how high they are was for a fellow who asked for plans that were published in the Train Mountain Gazette not for the web page but due to my computer skills second only to my spelling it ended up on here by mistake sorry bout that keep the steam up. Boyd Butler

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:07:32 -0700
From: "james broome"

Subject: Re: Re: chloe boiler



Thanks for the info guys!

James

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:36:20 -0400
From: Ronald Thibault

Subject: Re: Comments



Where can we go to sign up for the Gazette?

Ron Thibault
Warrenville, SC USA http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/h/thib9564/

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:37:14 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Comments



Don't be sorry, Boyd,
it created a fruitful discussion.
Arno

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:05:33 -0000
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: Comments



Hello Ron,

Where can we go to sign up for the Gazette?

The mentioned Gazette is the Train Mountain Gazette, which is an monthly information for all Train Mountain members to keep them informed, what's going on on "their" layout.

No chance for other people to subscribe.

Hubert

P.S.: Russ Wood, because the seats are your development, is their a chance to post it here too?

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:11:51 -0000
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: Car Sides



Hello Boyd,

The reason why the car sides are not used on Train Mountain riding cars and most others is if a car starts to derail one can catch themselves rather than fall over with the car is our experience and the riders seem to favor them as they don't feel so confined.

That's just my meaning too.

With my rented riding-car at Train Mountain last year (the bulkhead-flat with long bench) I had no problems.
At Joshua Tree with the Highside-Gondola I allways was fearing to derail, and than two weeks later it happened at Bitter Creek & Western. I sat to far back for stretching my legs, which were covered inside the Highside-Gon, and for that reason the front-truck derailed. Because I could get my legs fast engough out, my Speeder badly derailed and fall on his side, which ended my operation-time their.

Here at home, I have a flat-car with a crate on it as a riding car, and I never had problems.
Also, the public carrying trains are deep-center flatcars with long benches, but no sides.

Hubert from Germany

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:25:32 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Train Mountain



I don't know other than a membership how to get it as its for the members of Train Mountain, they may have some kind of associate membership but you would have to contact Carol at Train Mountain for that info just email them the address is on there web site. Come out sometime and visit us during one of our meets its worth much more than the meet reg fee. After all its less than a trip to some forgettable movie and a dinner that you wished you had not eaten due to the ever expanding waste line and it lasts for three days too.
Boyd Butler

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 07:28:28 -0400
From: Ronald Thibault

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



Boyd;
Some day I hope to get to Train Mountain, but for now living in SC, it will be far in the future.

Ron Thibault
Warrenville, SC USA

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 07:54:23 EDT
From: OXPRESS51@aol.com

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



Where is train mountain. What's the date of the next meet. thanks Don

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:27:19 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



Boyd,
the movie and dinner can pay for the reg. fee, but what about the 40 hrs 56 min 2,602.54 mile drive, one way, according to MapQuest?

Arno in Toronto

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:45:09 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Drive



Well about that drive, hmm, never thought of that but gee look forward to the end of the road, well then again when one gets there one must look at where one started some days before. I wish that everyone could come out to our railroad that many from afar have helped create. Its worth one trip no matter how long to experience a meet at. I have met people from all over the world there even some who I couldn't understand due to there origin but we all had one thing in common the love for railroading and the people that come to enjoy it. If nothing else get one of the videos to watch but again to experience the grades and long runs of TM in person they cannot duplicate in any way, the animals of all kinds and sizes, night runs under the sky that is so clear one can see forever the stars.
But enough already, come out if you can to one of our meets its worth the time and money.
Boyd Butler

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:20:03 -0400
From: "russ@kfalls.net"

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



Arno, the last meet at the beginning of this month saw 6 Canadian's 1 Euopean, 2 Aussies, and 1 New Zealander out a total of 51 people, 13% traveled from a far. As far as the U.S. attendess the Panziks travel from Florida every year to be at Train Mountain. In your travels from Canada to Train Mountain please add up the total footage of all the tracks of 7 gauge you'll pass along the way. When you get here you will probably see more track here than all of those combined. You will also probably also see more turnouts here than all those others combined. Now more importantly you will probably see and meet every major modeler in 7 scale that you have read and seen in Live Steam of 7 Plus magazine. As Boyd and others have said, 'ya gotta see it to believe it'!
russ@hobby-tronics.com

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 23:02:53 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



Russ,
you killed it right there. This is 7-1/4" country!

Please not that my reply to Boyd was inreference to his "instead of a movie and a dinner".
Arno

PS
Train Mountain videos have been show at the Golden Horseshoe LS (Hamilton, ON) winter meets.

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:06:46 -0400
From: Robert W Herronen RWHERRON

Subject: Triad Live Steamers Train Meets and so on..



Let me try that again - sorry - new email system and it hates me. I bounced back a couple times before I just replied...

Howdy,

I figured I'll go ahead and put in a plug for our train meets this year at the Triad Live Steamers in Farmington, N.C. See link to our web site below.

We are operating June 26th on the request of the race track so it is not so much an official meet.

July 3rd is our next train meet date. It is a week after the one isted above.

October 30th will be our last official run day of the year.

But if you show up any 2nd or 4th Saturday of the month, someone should be around and would be happy to take you out on the railroad. If you want to bring your own equipment, please call or email in advance so we can be expecting you (and we can make sure the race track does not park in the transfer table area.)

Currently we are working to stablize all the track we have with new ballast. The rain, snow and ATVs have spread the old ballast out pretty well. We have several other projects going on including wiring and finishing the benches inside the maintenace shed. We also need to put in a new water system since the old one is worn out. I want to run some additional new electrical with all of this too.

We are looking at getting a shipping container to use for our new carbarn as the $7,000 wooden one built around 5 years ago is totally rotted away now. We'll be putting the new railroad yard at this place since we want to put the container down near the steaming area / unloading ramps.

Our plans are to hopefully soon start the mainline extension down the hill to give us several thousand more feet of track to run on. I think at best we have only built on 7 of the 30 acres we have to build upon.

So, please feel free to stop on by. Bring your equipment and run. We don't charge any track fees or anything. If you like it, feel free to join up!

And as always, thanks.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Herronen

V.P. Triad Live Steamers, Inc, Farmington, N.C.

Owner, Rio Grande Southern R.R. of Randolph County, N.C.

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:47:01 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: Train Mountain



Consider this, Salt Lake City to Denver according to Mapquest is 8 hours.
My time is 5.75 hours.
So your drive time is reduced to 30 hours. Two marathon days of driving and you're there! Or join one of the rambles, I beleive they started at Maricopa last year, which is much closer to you.
A third option is to UPS your loco there and then fly. Don't use FedEx, they trashed my caboose.

Roy

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 17:14:45 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Train Mountain



Roy,
please do note that I replied to Boyd's "the movie and dinner can pay for the reg. fee".

Also, you did not seem to have taken note of my reference to 7-1/4" or have all the places cited by you re-gauged their track to the world standard now?

Arno

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 21:53:08 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



Re: regauge. Naw, wer'r an Independence set of citizens here.
By the way, our moderator from Germany, ran a small Locomotive he set up to use on both 7 1/4 and 7 1/2 gauge railroads through the area.
Tung in Cheek, Best Regards, Willian J. Stewart.

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 23:06:41 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Train Mountain a different place for sure.....



A night run on a good steam locomotive at Train Mountain, well, there is nothing better.


Bundle up well against the night air, pull out of the main yard and wind ones way over the Klamath and Western and on down the Serpentine, your loco gets into its stride, the miles clatter away under the wheels, headlights piercing the darkness, steam wafting past, check the fire and water level and on into the night. Stop for water at South Portal, then swing north under the road and on to the Douglas and Elizabeth loops. Now you're really out in the back country. Look up, more stars than you have ever seen. Find a loop to park in, just sit there, the hissing and crackling of your loco the only sounds to be heard. Gaze up at the millions of stars, this really is a different world.

Then it's time to move on, heading back now, pull in at the Vertel's for water and a quick oil round, then off again into the night, coast down grade and across the dam, opening the throttle for the long hard climb to the tunnel under Chiloquin Road, give Dennis a toot on the Whistle as you roll by. Soon you will be back at the bottom of the Serpentine another quick stop for water, and to build up pressure. Then off again, if you have a good load on the stack talk is now steady and constant, its late now but there are still lights on at the blue caboose campground, your really into the grade now the loco is really working hard, the exhaust steam shooting like a volcano 20 feet or more into the still night air, you turn to the left then back over to the right, and back left again, your loco digging in fighting for traction, check the water level as you cross the road for the last time, pass the coal mine on the right as you dig into the short 2.6% grade past the Cement works and on up to the long tunnel, nearly home now and a hot mug of coco. Rolling through the tunnel then swing hard to the right and climbing again up to the main yard, the lights of central station can now be seen in the distance. Keeping to the right of the main yard, you check the water one more time before you roll down the grade to the station, drop off your passengers and roll on round to the yard.....

You've been gone an hour and a half and traveled on maybe half the rails. But then, there is always tomorrow....

And, do not forget, Crater Lake is just 25 miles up the road. You will never forget the first time you peer over the edge at the deep blue water with snow capped mountains surrounding you.

TH

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:10:37 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: New Garratt Steams



Richard Stuart has steamed his newly built 7.25" gauge "ride in" Garratt for the first time.

http://www.livesteaming.com/richard_stuart_garratt.htm

TH

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 06:11:44 -0500
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: RE: Train Mountain



Arno, I guess I have been floating along here is ignorance. What is the "World Standard"? I did not realize there was a "World Standard". Most all of the tracks in the midwest part of the US of A (which includes Illinois where I am from) use the 7 1/2" gauge track for 1 1/2" scale and have done so for as long as I can remember. This however does not make it correct, unless you are from this area and want to run in this area. When I started building in this hobby in the 1960's, (I was associated with it in the early 1950's), I was told that if you want to run your equipment in this area you need to make it fit the 7 1/2" gauge. I do not want to start a discussion about track gauge, but if there is a "World Standard" I would like to know what it is. I think is some countries they use a meter reference, which does not seem to be compatible with our inch reference, because they go to even numbers. I can make my equipment work on any gauge (within reason), with a change of trucks, (I could even run on 12" gauge track), or what ever, if the change is not to much to shift things, such as an 1/8" on each side one way or an other is not much to change and can be done on my equipment very easily, if I know a bit ahead of time what the track gauge will be were I want to run. I am working on 2.5" scale narrow gauge which runs on 7 1/2" track at this time. The over all width of the equipment is too wide for most 7 1/2" layouts how ever because of clearance problems. I was at a Steam Up open house this past Saturday and could not use their lift to unload any of my equipment because the lift width was 19 1/4" wide. Much too narrow for my equipment. So if I want to run there, I will have to fix up a ramp arrangement to unload my equipment, or get a trailer that will drop down to ground level for unloading, which I have considered. They are expensive but look to be very handy.
Thomas

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:46:53 -0000
From: "Trevor Heath"

Subject: Re: "World Standards"



The "World" uses the gauge 7.25" most of North America uses 7.5"

The "error" occured in the 1950's. When the "World" was a much larger place.

As you say, no point in re-opening that debate, all the people involved are probably dead now and what was done is done.

Some tracks in North America have been engineered to accomodate both, even fewer engines have bee built to accomodate both. So yes it is important to research where you want to run your locomotive.

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:01:04 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: "World Standards"



Trevor,

Just to throw gasoline on the fire I'll state that I recently read "somewhere" that if you add the total world-wide trackage all the 7 1/4" tracks and then add the North American pocket of 7 1/2" tracks the results will astound. The author has made the conjecture that the 1/2" totals more than the 1/4" so maybe the standard is changing. Flame suit on and running for cover.
--
kind regards
Dennis

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:02:10 -0400
From: bgwmoxie@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: "World Standards"



Gentlemen,
May I add a pinch of Salt...
It is my understanding that back in the days of correspondence; Somewhere roughly between NY, NJ and PA this debate was started due to an error in the way a "4" was mis-represented as a "2".
As we all know the beginning of the hobby transpired from 7-1/4" gauge Western Europe to the U.S.A. and beyond.
Having said that, somewhere that "4", became the "2".

Doesn't much matter these days, the binding thread is steam and trains.
Hopefully, by the sounds of it we'll all have the oppurtunity to see Train Mountain.

Happy and Safe Steaming,
Chris Sylvester

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:55:48 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: "World Standards"



And ther is the 'difference' between 4+ and 5 inch gauges for nominal 1 inch scale railroading. I know some local people who run NG equipment on the 4+ gauge, it can make for some interesting comparasions. I believe there was one local who had a Shay set up to be able to run either on the 4+ gauge or 7 1/2 gauge, depending on the relative amount of traffic at the Club.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:15:31 -0600
From: "Lewis, Woody"

Subject: RE: Re: "World Standards"



A possible answer to this question is found in Steve Booth's book "Master Railroad Builder" available thru Amazon. Another answer that I have also heard that someone took his tape measure and hooked it on the outside of one rail and measured it to the inside of the other rail to get 7 1/2" when the guage was 7 1/4". However it happened, it is too bad because we don't have world wide interchangeability of locos and rolling stock...

Woody Lewis
Colorado Springs, CO

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:06:33 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Train Mountain a different place for sure.....



You are making it verrry tempting, Trevor.
Arno

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:06:36 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: New Garratt Steams



Wow!

Michael !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Arno

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:06:38 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: RE: Train Mountain



Arno, I guess I have been floating along here is ignorance. What is the "World Standard"?

7-1/4"

When I started building in this hobby in the 1960's, (I was associated with it in the early 1950's), I was told that if you want to run your equipment in this area you need to make it fit the 7 1/2" gauge.

I hate to say it (not really), but the Midwest, South and West of the USA is not the World.

Even Walt Disney built his Carolwood to 7-1/4"

I do not want to start a discussion about track gauge, but if there is a "World Standard" I would like to know what it is. I think is some countries they use a meter reference, which does not seem to be compatible with our inch reference, because they go to even numbers.

Right, 184 mm is an even number, as compared to 185.

I can make my equipment work on any gauge (within reason), with a change of trucks, (I could even run on 12" gauge track), or what ever, if the change is not to much to shift things, such as an 1/8" on each side one way or an other is not much to change and can be done on my equipment very easily, if I know a bit ahead of time what the track gauge will be were I want to run.

Most of us are/were Live Steamers. To do what you suggest above you would have to build an outside frame loco allowing for the adjustment of wheels on keyed axles.
Relative to steam, that's an easy change for wheel chairs and lawn movers (donning the asbestos suit).

I am working on 2.5" scale narrow gauge which runs on 7 1/2" track at this time. The over all width of the equipment is too wide for most 7 1/2" layouts how ever because of clearance problems. I was at a Steam Up open house this past Saturday and could not use their lift to unload any of my equipment because the lift width was 19 1/4" wide. Much too narrow for my equipment.

Nope, your equipment is much too wide for their existing fixed plant.
That is not semantics, they were there first.
Just like you were told to build to 7-1/2" if you wanted to run on the track where you lived.

A lot of tracks will build now to accommodate 2-1/2" scale but not 3-3/4, that why builders of sit-in locos like, the one Trevor just mentioned, will have to make sure they will have a place to run.

What kind of a loco do you have?
Arno

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:06:53 -0400
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: RE: Re: "World Standards"



Where thru Amazon? I just checked and it shows 4 people waiting for a copy of this book and I know I am one of them. If there are some copies out there I don't know about them.

Pat Turner

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:12:47 -0600
From: "Lewis, Woody"

Subject: RE: Re: "World Standards"



Pat,

You are correct. Amazon sells it but is currently out of stock...

Woody Lewis
Colorado Springs, CO

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:15:37 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Track "standard" gauge.



Dear Dennis,
Would it be approprate to mention that 1/8 scale of 56.5 in gauge would be 7.0625 inch gauge?
Perhaps back in the dawn of Live Steam Model Railroading someone measured the full size on a piece of curve and then scaled it to 7.25 inch from a 58 inch original measrurement?
Just think how much more 'fun' we could have working in 2.3541+ inch scale, or 3.53125 inch scale, or 5.65 inch scale?
Oh well, we of course, are 'stuck' with what has been established by past builders and will need to build to suit.
As an asside, The Los Angeles Live Steamers early in their building of the club track, established minimum clearances for overhead and side obstructions around the railroad, which were chosen to fit the Human Adults that rode the equipment rather than the equipment itself.
As such, the clearances have allowed building of equipment to at least 6 inch scale that runs very well on the Club track.In designing and upgrading our loading facilties we kept the clearances in mind and built most of it to not have side structure above the rail top where it would interfear with larger equipment.
One possible exception is the three deck transfer bridge for teh Phil West Barn and its interior tracks. The track centers were intended for comfortable storage of equipment made to 7.5 gauge and up to about 2 inch scale for the floor and intermediate levels and will fit 2.5 scale on the top level, but taller equipment would not fit through the doors. Alkire and Richardson storage sheds also have height restrictions and some width restrictions on what scale equipment will fit. 2.5 inch scale locomotives will fit near the doors but not deeper in due to the slopin groof and lowering support structure.
This may not be such a problem in the future as there is a proposal going through the approval process to replace the Alkire and Richardson storage with a new structure, with better astethics and multideck capability.
Future modelers will continue to decry the differences in track gauge in different areas of the world and will continue to build to fit, unless so 'rich' they can build their own from the roadbed up and do not intend to do any "interchange" operations. I understand this happens in the smaller scale sometimes yet today.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:18:20 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Book search.



have you tried "abebooks.com"
Best Regards,
William J. stewart.

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:01:06 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: "World Standards"



Dennis,
either you got your hand on that big paddle again or you are smoking something interesting.

Go back to that author and ask him to give a comparison between the number of tracks.

BTW, how do the delayed pioneers in "British" Columbia feel having to run on 7-1/2" ?
;->) ;->)
Arno

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:01:09 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: "World Standards"



That's an interesting one, William.
4-3/4" is already 42 thou over size for 1" to the foot.
It appears that, with the rarest exceptions, the "World Standard" is 5".
Properly scaled UK models will be built to a scale of 1-1/16" to the foot.
When someone over here is building to these plans as drawn, except for the narrowing of the gauge, some British models look almost as big as American ones.

Changing of gauges on geared locomotives are 'relatively' easy.

It had been speculated in the past in Livesteamers that if frames are always built to the narrower gauge and cylinders to the larger gauge, differently positioned tires (tyres) could be made to accommodate the gauge. (This is for relatively permanent gauge change.)

The problem with 5" gauge inside cylinders is that the design usually leaves very little space and shaving a quarter inch of the width for the narrower frames may not be possible.

So, no matter what size, unless you are an island onto yourself, find out what the predominant gauge is in the area where you would like to run on others track, and build to that gauge.
Arno

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:41:02 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: TO: William Stewart



As i once said, i am a member of the LALS. Talking about clearances, did the ever raise the trestle out near the road??
If i don't duck, i hit my head on the upper level.
I am quite tall.
Bill

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:45:44 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: "World Standard"



I'd like to see the source of the statistics.

While because of the affluence and the space, the tracks tend to be larger in North America, there are a "ton" of tracks out there in many countries.
And more being built all the time.

In the end though 7.25" in England pre-dates 7.50" by at least 50 years.

TH

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 17:53:21 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Train Mountain a different place for sure

.

Can I suggest you save your pennies for a trip to Train Mountain for the 2006 Triennial.

Two years to plan and save (Time and money)

Maybe this would be a good time to propose a get together of the members of this group at that meeting. Maybe for a BBQ and a night run. Triple header anyone?

I hope to have the Garratt finished for that meeting and if so RD and Bob, the Guys who helped me obtain the parts to start the project should be over from OZ to thrash it up the Serpentine.....

TH

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 18:07:24 -0700
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: RE: Train Mountain a different place for sure.



Trevor, RGS 41 will be mostly done by the next Triennal and we are hoping to have a large contingent of narrow gaugers at the meet. A BBQ for us "narrow minded" guys/gals would be neat.
See you there.
Ken Burns
www.projectrgs41.org

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:04:19 -0300
From: "Oliver T."

Subject: Re: RE: "World Standard"



I've wondered about this very subject ever since I picked up my first copy of Live Steam and read the arguments about 7.25" vs 7.50". Whether with a stick in the dirt, a slide rule, an abacus or a modern calculator...every time I divide 56.5" by 1/8 I get 7.0625", which any reasonable machinist mechanic would even out to 7" gauge.
Standard gauge in post-war time did vary depending on railroad and use, but I've never heard of it being 58" or 60".

Ah, well...like most events in human history, the real reason behind the 7.25" vs 7/50" gauge thing was probably something silly and stupid...

Oliver T.
MineRun, NB

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:16:34 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Re: RE: "World Standard"



Oliver,
0.133333 (1.6" scale) makes 7.5" gauge perfect.
You get bigger trains that way :-))
RichD (Building a 1.6 scale Colorado Midland Ry. 104 class Ten Wheeler)

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 04:00:33 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: TO: William Stewart



If you mean the trestle between zoo drive and Cooper yard, the 1 inch yard, the answer is no it has not been raised since the Mckelvey loop was completed in 1980.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 22:33:42 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: FW: AVR PACIFIC TESTS AT TRAIN MOUNTAIN



News of a new Canadian Pacific on test at Train Mountain last week
www.swedenfreezer.com/avr/avr_2365_passes_test_at_train_mountain.htm

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:27:29 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza >

Subject: Re: RE: "World Standard"



Trevor, I'm not sure where I read the theory. It may have been on Live Steamers as this subject comes up often there and there is no correct answer.

Like we chatted about last time round, the first engine I had was 7 1/4 and this one is going to be 7 1/2. The best logic would be "When in Rome ...."

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:30:19 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: Train Mountain a different place for sure.



Can I suggest you save your pennies for a trip to Train Mountain for the 2006 Triennial

Might make it this time. :o)

Two years to plan and save (Time and money)

Might be able to handle this.

Maybe this would be a good time to propose a get together of the members of this group at that meeting. Maybe for a BBQ and a night run. Triple header anyone?

I hope to have the Garratt finished for that meeting and if so RD and Bob, the Guys who helped me obtain the parts to start the project should be over from OZ to thrash it up the Serpentine.....

I knew about RD but not Bob. Do you know if will Ginny be accompanying Bob again this trip? Denise is anxious about that as they had a great time during the IBLS 2000 festivities.

--
kind regards
Dennis

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 05:54:50 -0500
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



My first one was a cly-shay (or how ever it is spelled) the one I am working on now is a K 27.
Thomas

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:03:14 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Train Mountain a different place for sure.



Will the Willamette be ready by then?

Arno

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:21:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Grinnell

Subject: Re: New Garratt Steams



Hi Group,
Are there printed Garrett plans out there for purchase? Or?
Sincerely
A Grinnell

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:28:06 -0700
From: "LR-N"

Subject: Willamette?



Arno

It appears within two years both surviving Willamettes (12"=1 foot) will be back in steam.

Chelatchie Boiler Works of Camas, Washington will be doing the boiler for the Willamette at Mount Rainier Scenic, that locomotive was stored indoors by Jim Gertz for years, it is very good condition.

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:06:50 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Track "standard" gauge.



We reached a record here today with the # of e-mails waiting to be read. Only two orthree spams most on how to measure track gauge, Train Mountain and the unending exploration of the navel: 7 1/4' and/or 7 1/2". What's done is done; can't forget the late Don Marshall, whose works (engines) could get about both. Without causing the end of the world. And yes, I recognize the trouble, theoretically, with guarded switch frogs.

I suppose that's why I like narrow gauge: The shoe size ( wheel tire width) is larger,proportionall to the body supported. The only time I really "worked" on a railroad was the summer of 1941 as an unpaid kid volunteer the last year running for this Maine two footer. I rrecall hearing somewhere that the last gov't report held that the gauge was somethimg like 27" on sections of the line where the ties were particularly tired.

I was taken by the sections of the last e-mail flury dealing with clearance gauge. Independent of the righteousness of your chosen track gauge, please, no, pretty please, make your loading gauge clearances enough to accept models (of narrow gauge equipment) built to a larger scale and the knees bellies, pates and other body parts of the models' engineers, drivers and riders.

And not just for the big stuff. We at the Adirondack Live Steamers are putting in a G layout to attract (confirm attraction to) the hobby. Members doing this already knew to make track to track clearance wider than what would be standard gauge normal. There was a great sideswipping down in Florida at Jerry Smiths a year or so ago when two Maine two footers, modelled to run on G Gauge, tried to pass.

Cam Brown

After thought Bill and Nancy Eckert have a new RMI ( Aussie?) Clear Creek at ALS.. Havn't seen her run yet but she is BIG, the loco, not Nancy, Don't know the scale if there is one but she, the loco and Nancy, have made it about our track without wiping out anything. I asked Nancy about the theology of gauge change. As I recall they bought two sets af axles, the loco delivered as the reported world standard with the other set for the other.

Now don't get ticked at the Eckerts - that last shot is pure Brown. Couldn't resist the temptation.

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:10:18 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Track "standard" gauge.



Just for information, The Los Angeles live Steamers Track has, over the years, tried to maintain a clearance gauge that accomodates most models and adults, but of late some soft incursions are creeping in.There are sections of the track where the adjacent plant growth has climbed over the track and, in order to leave as much of the 'tunnel' effect as possible consistant with operations, bits and pieces hang a little lower than the intended clearance height. Most of our hard clearances on the track are sufficient for most adults to walk alongside the track in an emergency with only minor stooping within the three tunnel bores. There is a nice graphic map of our facility on our Club webpage if anyone is interested.
Also, as a result of an accident on our tack and the insuing State Investigation, We have been notified formally that we are NOT Subject to the Amusement Ride safety and inspection regulations, NOR are we under that State body's jurisdiction.
Now all we have to do is find reasonable insurance to cover our operation.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:08:41 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: Train Mountain a different place for sure.



Arno,

Russell was none committal when he visited a while back. I expect the answer will be yes but that's just a guess. His buddy Jim over to Port Angeles had the real one sitting in a "garage" for a long time and it was measured for the model. The original is getting rebuilt and ready for running. Hopefully in the near future from what I have been told.

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:23:03 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Garratt plans



You can purchase a CD with all of the SAR NG/G16 prints on it from John Young

Click here for details http://www.ethinticity.com/home.htm

TH

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:06:41 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Garratt plans



Excuse this senor moment but I was sure I had the e-mail adress of an overseas gentleman in the e-mail address book. Wrong! So, please, someone rescue me. There is an truly excellent set of two books giving, not only the history of the original Garretts, K1 and 2, in Tasmaniabut a retrospective on perhaps every articulated wheel arrangement ever built. Or thought of.

Way back, a while ago, I thought I knew how someone in the USA could secure a copy. Fading(ed) memory suggests that the author's name began with a V, and he was also the builder of the 3 3/4" scale, + or -, American 4-4-0 of the Pennsylvania Mt. Gretna Narrow Gauge.

Anyone who admires two foot gauge cannot be bad.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:33:36 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: Garratt plans



cam,

Are you speaking of the books written by a French gentleman where one half of each page is French and the other half English? If so then contact Camden Books in the UK. The book and the accompanying drawings of the K-1 are absolutely necessary if one plans to build one in 3 3/4" scale for 7 1/2" rail. The book is pricey and available in the last year. I recently bought a copy. Please don't ask for more detail as it is packed and in storage awaiting our pending move to a newer and larger home. I believe I got mine from Camden "K1" 1st Garratt in Tasmania by Dr. Christian Cenac Autoedition 1996 ISBN 2-9505403-3-3

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:42:39 -0700
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Re: Train Mountain



If someone live so far away as to consider TM a once-in-a-lifetime trip, then it might be fun to plan around the BIG triennial meets (next one in the summer of 2006). It is safe to say that for the foreseeable future the TM Triennials will be the largest "7 Plus" gauge meets in the world.
On the other hand, if you are a person who doesn't like groups of people you can join and visit on an off-season Tuesday and perhaps have 25 miles of track to yourself.

Brief Advertisement: To get a good look at TM, we still have copies of your Triennial video / DVD. The page linked below has some short comments we've received from viewers. We chose not to add the most recent comment we received . . ."it's best live steam video (of any kind) I've ever seen". We were flattered, but we thought it might seem like we wrote it ourselves!!
http://7plusrailroader.com/gift_shop/index.htm

Trevor. That was a beautifully written piece about the night run. The feeling of the piece indicates that you are speaking from experience . . . and I know you are because I saw you out there scorching the ballast at midnight!!

All the Best,
Greg Robinson

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 14:39:54 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: Garratt plans



Dr. Cenac is correct. I mixed up two gentleme, one C, the oher V.

And I appreciate that reminder of "one page in English - next in French. Which brought memories flodong back on how poor I was in that language. Even though I had the two texts side by side, I couldn't translate!

Cam Brown

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:06:53 -0500
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Narrow Gauge Question



On narrow gauge locomotives having a simplex steam driven pump mounted on the side of the boiler, where was the steam outlet of the pump routed?

From photographs, I have found several examples of the steam outlet pipe running along the top of the running board forward to the end of the boiler lagging and then at the edge of the smoke box the piping goes down and disapears under the smokebox. Where did it end up?

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:30:55 +0200
From: "Johan"

Subject: RE: Narrow Gauge Question



Hi Bill,
My 2 Cents worth of info...................................it exits through the "Smoke stack" or "Chimney" as named in other parts of the world. It would be simular to the "blower"
Regards,
Johan.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:40:34 -0400
From: Robert W Herronen RWHERRON

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge Question



Bill,

The exhaust steam from the air compressors went into the cylinder saddle near the middle to connect to one of the exhaust ports which would then exhaust through the nozzles and up the stack. This was so that the steam was not wasted but helped draft the fire. If you were to be watching the fire when the engine is standing still, you would notice that every time the pump exhausted its spent steam, the fire would brighten as the spent steam creates a vaccuum in the smoke box.

You would not want to constrict the flow of steam in any way, such as piping it through the blower ring. That would reduce the efficiency of the compressor. I imagine that the exhaust ports for the cylinders are large enough to prevent back pressure from reducing the pump efficiency that much. Of course, the compressor would be working harder when the engine is not (i.e. on the down grade.)

I hope this helps.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Herronen

V.P. Triad Live Steamers, Inc, Farmington, N.C.


Owner, Rio Grande Southern R.R. of Randolph County, N.C.

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:41:17 -0700
From: Peter Moseley

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge Question



Hi Bill:
As other have stated the exhaust line went into the smoke box saddle.
On our models of 268 & 278 we piped it into the saddle below the frame per the prototype and then ran a 1/4" copper pipe from there up along side the blower.

Peter Moseley

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:39:46 +1000
From: "Paxon G&C"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge Question



The line running to the smokebox was probably the compressor exhaust line that just dunmped into the smoke box. sometimes this exhaust was routed up to the rear of the smoke stack.
Geo.

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:38:17 +1000
From: "Paxon G&C"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge Question



Bill,
Two places you might look: The Gazette ran a series some time ago called "Straight Talk about ent Pipes" that dealt with loco plumbing. Also the Kalmbach book Loco Cyclopedia Vol 1 (on Steam engines) has a section in the front that shows the routing of pump piping. The routing was pretty much the same narrow or standard gauge. Let me know if you can't get your hands on anything definitive and I will dig out some articles for you.

Geo.

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:25:16 -0500
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge Question



Thanks, George.

Bill

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:45:13 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Narrow Gauge Question



Hi Bill:

Years ago, I contributed to Bill Jenson's "Straight Talk about Bent Pipes" series.

The compressor exhaust pipe...from either Single Cylinder or Cross-Compound pumps...generally goes into one of the cylinder exhaust passages at the saddle, as Robert said. The main reason is to avoid more pipes inside the smokebox than actually have to be there. It would never just "dump" into the smokebox, without being directed up the stack, as the exhaust steam from the pump would affect the vacuum in the smokebox. The smaller pipe that elbows into the side of the smokebox is the blower pipe, which either terminates in a ring around the cylinder exhaust nozzle, or is sometimes just a pipe bent up to point out the center (more or less) of the stack.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:55:39 -0700
From: "james broome"

Subject: Conway cylinders



I have a question about the Conway 2.5 scale 2-6-0 cylinder castings. Are the steam passages cast in on these or do they have to be machined in?

Thanks,
James

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:00:55 -0700
From: Peter Moseley

Subject: Re: Conway cylinders



Hi James:

Although we are finishing up 3 Conway C-16's from his C-19 castings we are using cylinders from another project. Ken Burns may have the information.

Peter Moseley

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:05:48 EDT
From: crpnut@cs.com

Subject: Bent Pipes



Where can you find the article Straight Talk about Bent Pipes?
Charlie R.

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:41:01 -0000
From: "gmam4088"

Subject: Pipes in smokeboxs



Hi all,

Some more on the pump exhausts.
On our full size New Zealand steam locomotives the WHB pump exhausts either go up behind the stack, the pipe from the pump first goes through a moisture trap which is located on the side of the smokebox.
Our J class 4-8-2's the pump exhaust goes into the lefthand cylinder exhaust passage. This does lead to a lot more water in the lefthand cylinder when the locomotive is standing with the pumps running.
We have two of these locomotives in service one with a cross compound the other has a pair of single pumps.
On the bigger K class 4-8-4's the pump exhaust pipe goes through the side of the smokebox and is connected to the base of the blast nozzle casting. This arrangement does produce a very nice sound up through the stack especially as the air pressure is getting up and the pumps are having to work a bit harder.

The locos with the exhaust up the back of the stack have a whosshing type of sound, the J's have almost no pump sound at all, while the K's with a pair of single pumps have a sound all of their own. I have travelled a fair bit in the USA most of the time finding locomotive to look at preferably one in steam and have yet to find one with a pump exhaust sound like our K class, although the 765 with its twin cross compound pumps did get close.

Have a look at our website to find some pictures of the locomotives I hjave been waffeling about.
www.websnz.com/mse/

Hope this is of held or interest to someone.

Ian

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:42:57 -0000
From: "toddntracy2"

Subject: S Curves



I am new to the hobby and am starting to layout a railroad in my yard. I only have an acre or so to deal with, so things are fairly tight. I am trying to keep my curve radius to 40'. I have an S curve that is 15+ feet on one leg and 30+ feet on the other, using a 40' radius. I really don't have the room to add a straight leg between the curves. Will I have problems?

Thanks

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:57:00 -0400
From: Robert W Herronen RWHERRON

Subject: Re: S Curves



Todd,

You might want to consider what is called a spiral. It is how the curves are eased in and out so that you don't "slam" into the curve. If you spiral the ends of the curves, you should get a fairly smooth transition.
But yes - it does lengthen the track. I'd be wary of using any long wheel-based cars or locomotives. The deflection where the curves come together could approach 1.2 inches over 4' and that would probably derail my steamers and could really stress couplers on any cars much more that 4 feet long.

Just my two cents.

Robert Herronen

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:03:12 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: S Curves



S-curves should be connected with a short straight between each segment, about as long as the longest piece of rolling stock you are even contemplating using on your track.
Without the tangent section, the car ends will swing in opposite directions at the transition between the two curves, which can break couplers or cause derailments.try to find a reallignment that allow for the short straight section, possibly by reducing the minimum radius if necessary, and you will end up with a track that will be more pleasure to run on.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:22:24 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: S Curves



how do you handle this with turnouts for passing sidings where you want to keep the tracks close together? i don't see any way to fit a straight section in without spreading the tracks too wide.
fred v

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:44:07 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: S Curves



Usually there is a short section of straight immeaniatly following the forg on the diverging route, in order to get the center to center spacing required for clearance, before the start of a reverse curve.
In a yard, where there is a switching lead off a series of turnouts feeding multiple parallel tracks, the through route of the switches is alligned for the switching lead, and the diverging routes just continue the curve of the turnout, no straight section is required.
The idea of using a cubic spiral easment into and out of curves is very good and is used on full size reilroads, sometimes even the superelevation is calculated and adjusted for the easment. This use of easements makes for a very smooth transition from straight to curve and reduces the side to side jarring, especially on high speed passenger service.
Two cubic spiral easements to/from opposing curves have been used in the past in lieu of a straight, but that means a longer distance between the two radiused sections than the straight used in slow speed trackwork.
I am, of course, making the assumption that you do not intend to run at 60MPH on your home track.
With tung slightly in cheek,
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:08:27 -0700
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: Conway cylinders



James,
The steam passages are cast into the Conway cylinder castings that we are using for our C-19, RGS 41. You will have machine the openings to the steam chest to size.
Ken Burns
www.projectrgs41.org

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:36:58 +1000
From: "Paxon G&C"

Subject: Re: Bent Pipes



It ran in the Shortline and Narow Gauge Gazette magazine some years ago.

Geo.

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:24:06 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: S curves



sigh... a whole acre... lucky you. I'm building on 1/5th acre.
The general rule of thumb is that a back-to-back S-curve effectively halves your radius. So you're talking an effective 20' radius through that section. You should have a straight section at least as long as the longest peice of rolling stock that will traverse your railroad, probably 8' would be safe. If this reduces the radius you can use to 36', it's still better than 20.

Roy Stevens

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:23:53 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: S curves



For my two cents worth...

Given an eased curve, superelevated with a slight gauge widening of a lesser radius is much preferable than a broader, flat curve that starts immediately out of a tangent.

Therefore this must go doubly in the case of an s curve.

On the earlier discussion about turnouts - have a close look at say a #6 turnout (5.5's and 6's are the most common I have found - anyone have other experience?), and you will find the curve is an eased spiral with an effective radius much tighter than many of their the owners would permit on their mainlines because of wheelbase issues, yet the locomotives cope with turnouts most of the time!.

I believe this is due to the fact the curved track leg (for a parallel road) tends to be laid by sight and therefore contains a naturaleasement - therefore meeting the criteria of several observations - two eased curves in a potential S curve situation are better than a long straight section.

Having said this - there must be a mathematical formulae that would allow an amount of the easement in the S curve to be counted as part of the "Car length of straight" - which is a wise rule of thumb

In practical words. Go measure the nearest turnout - siding S curve that works for you and adopt those measurements as your minimum (low speed) S curve standards this special circumstance tight spot!

Chris Draper
Driving Creek Tram
Auckland

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:40:03 EDT
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Re: reverse curve



My understanding is:
1. Easements do not require any additional length, rather they require additional width for the offset between the curve and tangent, or between the reverse curves.
2. The improved performance from easements is always worth any slight reduction in radius that might be required to accomodate them.
3. These things are true whether you are building 12" to the foot or HO scale.


Ken Wing

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:32:39 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: West Highland Railway Beyer Garratt's



This link has three photo's of the Beyer-Garratt's on the Welsh Highland Railway taken in May

The two NG/G16's in service and, outside the Boston Lodge works the K1 which is expected to steam in early July after the cement used to lay the brick arch has cured.

The NG/G16 photo's were taken by Doug Wilkinson of Seattle, the K1 photo I do not know the photographer

http://www.livesteaming.com/WHR.htm

These photo's of the newly restored G42 Garratt in Australia for those who have not seen them, are interesting too.

Interesting because the photo's were taken from a Radio Controlled Helicopter!




TH

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:09:48 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: VIME Summer meet photo's



I've added a few photo's from last weekends meet to the VIME 2004 page.

http://www.livesteaming.com/VIME%202004.htm

TH

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:45:54 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: VIME Summer meet photo's



I thought Russell was back in Perth by now.
Also, no mug shot of Dennis?
Arno

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:55:56 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Re: VIME Summer meet photo's



I thought Russell was back in Perth by now.

He is and so is the Heisler. "I've added a few photo's" Should have read "I've added a few photo's to the existing set from the spring meet on the VIME 2004 page"

Also, no mug shot of Dennis?

Camera's are expensive......

TH

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:02:13 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: VIME Summer meet photo's



Arno,

In the pictures from Trevor's site.
Russell driving his new locomotive,
Dennis facing backwards right behind acting as conductor,
Grandchildren and daughter in law (next 3)
Wife
Daughter in laws two nieces
daughter in law's sister's mother in law
how's that for a related subject train.

kind regards
Dennis

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 04:20:09 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: bearing question



Group,

I am quite familiar with standard roller bearings, but have almost no experience with sleeve bearings of various types, oil impregnated bronze being the most common.
My point is that I intend to use some 25mm sleeve bearings on the loco I'm currently constructing, and was wondering if anyone had some pointers. I'm concerned about too much friction since I'm using fractional horsepower DC motors, as well as durability since they will be in a very inacessible location. Anyone with any experience in this area?

Thanks,
Roy Stevens
> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:51:49 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com> Subject: Re: bearing question

Roy don't even think twice about it. The oil impregnated stock works fine but if you have any doubts get some Teflon impregnated Delrin and forget your worry's forever. I have both and for shafts the bronze will work fine with the circular motion of a shaft. On locomotive side rods I will only use the Delrin and that eliminates the need for lubrication if the Teflon impregnated stock is used. MSC offers the Delrin in natural, black, and Teflon.

Hope that helps, Vance

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: mes

Subject: RE: bearing question



Hi Roy,
Your Question is a common one. Roller bearings decrease the rolling friction but carry less load than sleeve bearings unless you oversize the the bearings. Roller bearings also do not take shock loading very well. For durablity sleeve bearings take the highest load, dependable, and most durable. With modern technology plastics is a better alternitive.
The best of this material to use is Vespel SP-21. It has a wide temperture (550F) range and is self lubricating ( Teflon and graphite). It maintains its deminsional tollorances. Like lots of bearing material it requires a bearing surface ( shaft) that is RC35 or higher. Load Pmax=4900
Rulon-LR is a good subsitute to Vespel. It is impregnated with Teflon but take a lower load (Pmax=1000) than SP-21. Requires RC35 or higher hard shaft surface. (Tmax=550F)
An alternitive can be MDS- filled Nylon. It is also self lubricating but does carry the high loads ( Pmax=2000) that Rulon. It's temperture range is lower about 200F.
PEEK is another plastic that is almost as good as Vespel but requires lubication. Pmax=6000 and Temp =485F. It also can run on a soft shaft RB85

So now you can choose for your application and need. All these materials can be purchase from a standard bearing house preformed in standard size sleeve bearings or can be purchase from and plastics distributor ( or McMaster-Carr).
Hope this helped.

Mark Stevens

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:47:56 +0200
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: (Fwd) CRRM LampTheft



Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:38:37 -0000
From: "skyking1084"
Subject: CRRM LampTheft

Fellow Fans,

If you haven't heard, the class lights were stolen from RGS #20, D&RGW #491, & D&RGW #683 at the Colorado Railroad Museum sometime last week.
Also a switch marker lamp.

Just talked to the Museum, here is some info:

The markers were all ENGRAVED with either "CRRM" or "RMRC" (only the RGS #20). There was also a switch marker lamp taken. MOST IMPORTANT - the glass lenses were replaced some years ago with PLASTIC fresnel lenses. The padlocks used to secure the lamps were cut with bolt cutters.
May these folks roast in the fire box of h*%#.


If you can, help pass this on to any others E-lists.

Dave Latimore