7+-NGM-logo The
"7-plus-NGM"
mailing-list


7-Plus-NGM Digest June 2005

Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 02:36:28 -0000
From: "roberthartsoe"

Subject: steam book on Ebay



You may want to take a look at a book on Ebay. It came from the old Clinchfield Railroad from the coal fields of TN.
Very detailed info on steam engines.
The item number is 5979240533
Robert

Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 08:14:56 -0700
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: info needed



Hello there,

I am still in the planning stages currently regarding my 4 wheel diesel switcher. I need a little help here so I will toss out my ideas and go from there.

I plan to use a Briggs & Stratton 3 hp horizontal engine, using a spider type coupling, and a Eaton Model 6 Hydrostatic transmission. I will use sprockets from the trannie to the lower drive shaft. This shaft will be supported by two ball bearing pillow blocks. By the way I will be using a 6 bladed fan which will be on the coupling to cool the Eaton Trannie. (recommended by the Eaton Company)

Here is what I am planning.

1. Use a Tol-o-matic 2:1 standard RH drive transmission on one axle and install sprockets on each axle utilizing #35 chain via a idler sprocket.
OR
2. Use TWO Tol-o-matic transmissions via drive shafts and universal joints to the lower pillow block drive shaft.


My questions are these. What drive shaft material would be safe to use, either 5/8" or 3/4" o.d.steel rod? Which item #1 or #2 is the preferred drive system to use? I will be using 5" drive wheels. Any ideas on sprocket tooth sizes to use? I would like to see at least a maximum speed of 4-6 mph.

Give me any ideas and I will consider them all.

Thanks for your help.

Bob

Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:04:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raymond Hill

Subject: Re: info needed



Bob,
To calculate the locotive speed based on the wheel diameter, Check out "LIVE STEAM" article by Louie Lettiere, "Getting Started series, around Jan/Feb '98.

R Hill

Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:01:53 -0000
From: "mr_trains_guy_2005"

Subject: about that caboose.....



Hello Jeff,
I am a new member to this group and i really like it, I would like to know the price of that caboose you are selling! and maybe you could send me some pics!
Thanks, happy steaming!
Slayter Shuart

Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:39:54 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: RE: about that caboose.....



Slayter,
Check out the "For Sale" page at DiscoverLiveSteam.Com
Bruce

Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 03:58:41 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: info needed



'back of envelope' comments:
5in. Dia. wheels would result in about 4033 Rev. Per Mile or about 67 Rev. Per Minute Per Mile Per Hour.
For 4 MPH that would indicate about 269 wheel Rev Per Minute.
For 6 MPH that would indicate about 403 wheel Rev Per Minute.
#35 chain does NOT have 'rollers, I would suggest #40 chain which is the smallest standard chain built with rollers.
plan on using a different muffler than the type usually supplied with that size engine, prefferably with larger volume and both less restriction and lower noise outout and a 'spark arrestor' rating.
sitting with your ears near the stock muffler at full engine speed will be very fatgueing.
If you haven't done it yet, download the repair manual from the Eaton website, it has much useful information to help you do the design.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:49:06 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: info needed



The horsepower rating of your tol-o-matic transmission will determine whether you need to use one or two. I'd try to get by with one if it will handle 2 horsepower. I agree with the recommendation to use #40 chain.
It's more common, tougher, and will not be much more $$. It's always a good idea to use heavy axle material on locos, 3/4" would be the better choice.
Good luck. How are you planning on making your suspension? That tends to be the most critical part of a good-running 4-wheel loco.

Roy

Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 16:07:34 -0700
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: info



Hello again,

A big thanks to Ray, Roy and William.

Ray-- I have a friend who has the back issues of Live Steam magazine. I will make contact with him.

Roy-- A few years ago I purchased two Roll Models shorty flat cars. I will use those pedestal sprung journal assemblies from those cars for supporting the drive axles and wheels. The lower frame unit will look alot like the one that Roll Models is currently using on their 25 ton two axle switcher only longer. I could probably use 7" wheels but do not have them at the present time. Seems like I retired too soon. Money always slows down a good project.

William-- I was all for using #35 chain but will switch over to #40 because of the rollers. It will handle the load alot better. As far as the muffler on the engine goes I tossed out the original a long time ago. I want to add more piping and run it out and away so I do not have to listen to it. Since I wear hearing aids I can always turn them off or use ear plugs.

Thanks again gentlemen for your help.

Bob

Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 21:24:26 -0000
From: "smallhand27"

Subject: Spoke wheels



I'm searching for 4" and 6" spoke wheels (no counter weight) for a 3" scale RGS "Goose" #2. simular to the wheels on Badger's heisler. Any sources?
Ray Hill

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:00:55 EDT
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1241



Allen models has 4" spoked wheel castings.
Ken Wing

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raymond Hill

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1241



Thanks Ken, I'll contact them.

Thanks, Ray Hill

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:31:10 -0000
From: "narrowbend"

Subject: Finishes



I have been given a 2 1/2 scale gondola to finish up. It is made of a fine grained hardwood and my first idea was to use a marine teak oil finish (by Watco) on it. I have used polyurathane over these finishes before after it cured a few days. Does anyone know if an oil based paint will work over an oil finish if I decide to paint it later?
Any other advice on a durable finish for wooden cars? Sun is more of a problem than rain here in Central Oregon.

Michael

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:36:21 +0100
From: Richard Armstrong

Subject: Introduction



Hello

I have been lurking in the background for sometime and thought I had better introduce myself.

I have a number of projects on the go. Currently it is a 7 1/4" gauge Shay.I have plenty of other projects but they do not fall under the remit of the group!

Regards
Richard Armstrong

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:01:40 GMT
From: "btflco@juno.com"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1241



You can also try Roll Models, they have spoked pilot wheels that are 2.5" scale for the Sweet Creek and I used them on a 3" scale Climax I built a few years ago. I would also try Live Steam Parts in Gardnerville, Nevada.
They have spoke wheel castings and that is where I purchased the wheels for the Heisler.
http://www.livesteam.com/

Jeff Badger

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:37:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: paul garin

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1241



HELLO GENTLEMAN,
THE 6" SPOKED WHEELS ON JEFF'S LOCO ARE STILL AVAILABLE, PLEASE CALL ME AT (559) 441-8686, AND I CAN GIVE YOU DETAILS.
ALL THE BEST,
PAUL GARIN

Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:58:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: george taylor

Subject: Re: Finishes



hi michael,

i'm kind of a lurker in this group, but my experience with furniture may help in your case. the text book answer is that stains and paints don't mix.
stains require more of a transfer medium (oil or other solvents) to penetrate the wood. stains also have a smaller amount of pigment binder than paint. the binder in paint when hardened, acts like a sealant.
when a stain is applied to a 'thirsty' piece of wood, it is drawn in deeper than is possible with paint.
stains exposed to constant sunlight with need more maintenance than most exterior paints.
the bad part about stains? as the wood initially soaked up the oil, it also gives it back as it's internal structure changes.
applying paint over stain will eventually cause the paint to peel off due to oil or solvet release.

is there an answer? possibly, because of the manufacture of stain-kill products like kil-z (maybe i spelled it right). the chemistry of stain-kill products limit the transfer of solvents.
do stain-kill products always work...no. they sometimes present problems all their own.

you may simply have to try an expriment.
there are times when i've painted over a stain with no problems.
there are also times when it went on great, but a year later, it peeled wholesale. and there were times when applying a stain-killer only made the project look horrible.

there are some great ways to get a natural wood finish.
my favorite for certain types of furniture and for all of the guitars that i've built is linseed oil. it's light, goes on in really thin coats (just a couple of drops on a rag does it). if it feels tacky or gummy, you applied it too thick.
the good thing is that if you do get it too thick, you can take it off by buffing with 0000 steele wool. it is also time consuming, because if you want a high luster, you will need to apply more than 17 coats of oil. depending on humidity, each coat of oil can take a couple of days to harden. why do i like a method that takes forever?
it adds no color to the wood; it gives a shine similar to lacquer; and it is renewable with only a rag needed.

there are a number of ways to finish rolling stock, no doubt that others will present their favorite methods.
that's the beauty of having a group like this. hope this helps.

george the moose

Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 07:41:51 -0500
From: "Curtis Hustace"

Subject: Consolidation



Hi all:

Has anyone thought of making Gene Allen's Consolidation a 2.5" scale locomotive? Would it look right?

Any thoughts?

Curtis H.

Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 08:27:07 -0500
From: "David Hannah III"

Subject: Re: Consolidation



You might consider changing the driver out to 8" drivers, from 6-1/4" drivers.

David Hannah

Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:57:56 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Consolidation



Curtis I am aware of two locos being built using the 2-8-0 Allen parts. One just uses the drivers and the other uses drivers and possibly the cylinders to build a couple mudhens. One early style slidevalve and a more modern version.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 20:55:12 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Consolidation



Several thoughts ......

1. The suggestion for larger drivers is good (you can find examples of narrow gauge consolidations with drivers as small as 36" (which scales out to 7 1/2" drivers)
2. Drivers need to be wider (need approximately 1" tread width) to make the drivers appear right.
3. Cylinder spacing needs to be increased (center to center) to handle wider drivers.
4. Cylinders probably should be "dummied" up to look a bit larger (bore and stroke of Gene's cylinders is OK, unless you plan to pull a whole lot (and make a very heavy loco) ....... but Gene's cylinders look a bit "small" if you plan to make a reasonably realistic 2 1/2" loco.
5. Almost all other changes are just "bolt on" ..... making the cab, running boards, boiler outline, etc. look right in 2 1/2".


Hope this helps.

Regards,
George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 23:55:57 -0700
From: "Michael Lavrich"

Subject: Re: Finishes



Thank you, George. I've never understood the difference between paint and stain before. I may just go with paint, except for the decking, so I don't face a nightmare later. but I'll see what other feedback I get. Thank you also for the description of how to use linseed oil. I've always applied it, and probably tung oil also, too thick.

Am I right to consider oil base paint over latex? Is cutting the first coat in half with thinner a decent primer?

Michael

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2005 01:11:43 -0000
From: "Dennis OBerry"

Subject: Re: Consolidation



Hi,

I'm using Allen cylinders and Baker Valve gear with Rogers-Cooke 7-1/4" drivers toward making a 2.5" scale 2-6-0 (larger Fitchburg Northern basically) utilizing his 2-8-0 drawings. I've finished designing the frame (51" length) but haven't decided if I'll have it flame cut or just milled out.

Rich Ulin is working on producing the C&S 2-8-0 Baldwins - you might consider that also.

Dennis

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:14:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: george taylor

Subject: Re: Finishes



hi michael,

again, the text book answer to creating a primer by thinning your color coat is no. primer is primer.
depending on need and use, primers are formulated differently. some are used to protect plastic from the harmful effects of certain solvents, others for dispersing sealant on difficult surfaces. overall, the purpose of primer is to create an optimum surface for your color coat to cling to.

as to whether to use oil-based or latex depends on the project and your experience. a trip to your local paint store (not a department store) can be most informative. don't just think about oil or latex, do consider other types like alkloids, casein (a milk-based paint. and yes there are milk-based paints, most commonly used by scenic studios for theatre and movies...er, and don't forget, farmers used to use milk to make barn paint)and epoxy paints.

i've used danish oils, tung oils, and natural stain oils. if used properly on bare wood, most give a fair finish. the problem i have with most of them is that they contain phenols. this particular additive is what gives the products containing it the ability to have a 'one swipe and you're done' quality. it helps seal the wood's surface and leave a lustrous finish. it also leads to layer build-up and can discolor the total finish in time. wood drinks in finishes at different rates at different times. the grain structures in the same piece of wood may be thirstier and require more applications. the danger is that if each layer is applied too thick or too soon or at a time of high humidity, it won't cure properly and leave a spoiled finish that takes a lot of sanding to remove. if you decide to use one of these 'one-stop' finishes, use only the freshest you can find and do it on a day of optimum conditions.

sorry if i haven't given you an easy answer, but i've always considered forwarned is forearmed. every finishing method has its problems, but the old ways produced some of the finest finishes. your choice will depend on your own sense of craftsmanship; time available; what you consider a reasonable expense; and your expectations of your project. everybody's expectations are different. work towards your own satification, not someone else's. i'm not perfect, my work isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean that i can't try a little harder and also learn something new in the effort. let us know how your project turns out.

george the moose

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:28:44 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Sacramento Valley Live Steamers Spring Meet Pix



To All:

Do To Problems With My HTML Program, The Pixs Have Been Delayed. I am Now Happy To Say Things Are Pretty Much Back On Track! If You'd Care To Check Out These And More Pixs Of Various Layouts, Check Out "Live Steaming In The Pacific Northwest" & More!

http://www.sscom.org/pnwls.html

Enjoy!

Dan Morris

Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:14:04 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Hi there, some news from this side of the pond....

I've just put a picture (Files\Athelstan\Athelstan on the tunrtable) in the files section showing the nearly finished Athelstan as at last weekend. Nearly two years of hard work has made a big difference and with luck the first steaming will take place sometime late July.



The loco is based at the Moors Valley Railway (Nr Bournemouth, Dorset) and anyone visting the UK is always assured of a warm welcome. Who knows, Athelstan may even be in steam but we have 16 other NG steamers to show you!

We are hosting our annual "American Weekend" on the 2nd/3rd July this year and this normally attracts a few visiting locos (two DRG consolidations last year), please pay us a visit when you are over.

Happy steaming,

Tim

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:55:12 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



hi Tim,
we were there in '03 from Wales West in Alabama and received the royal treatment. a great visit and a really neat RR. i have a pic of Athelstan under construction in the shop along with a 2-6-0 or 4-6-0, can't see from the pic. did it get finished? it may be the one in your last photo ahead of Athelstan.
fred v

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:53:31 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Hi Fred,

You're quite right, the other loco you saw is indeed the one shown in my last photo - I have attached another photo to the Athelstan file showing "Thor" as he is now.



"Thor" is a pacific and is considerably bigger than anything else on the railway as you can see. It's still minus valve gear, but this will be fitted up over the summer and she should be ready for the Santa Specials in December. She gets steamed regularly because her owner has fitted her with both a Bullied whistle and a Stanier hooter - both sound great!

Glad you enjoyed your trip in '03 - maybe well see you again?

Best regards,
Tim

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:55:42 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: RE: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Tim,

I am over here on the other side of the pond (and on the left coast), and I guess I am ignorant. What is the difference between (or, what is) a "Bullied whistle" and a "Stanier hooter"? Nice photos.

Bruce

Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:49:07 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Hi Bruce,

Oliver Bullied was the CME of the Southern Railway (ran between London and the UK South Coast). He designed the "Merchant Navy", "West Country" and "Battle or Britain" pacifics - the famous "Spam Cans", many later rebuilt in BR days. He gave them a particular type of whistle with a lovely note - but they were true whistles, not hooters. William Stanier was CME of the London Midland & Scotish Railway (LMS) and he looked around his vast railway empire for a signature whistle for his new design of class 5 mixed traffic locos (the Stanier "Black 5's"). What he found was the Caledonian Railway hooter which he modified slightly. It's big - about 15" long and 3" OD and the one on "Thor" has a 1/2" steam pipe. On the LMS the hooters could be heard about 3 miles away, "Thor's" can be clearly heard at a distance of 2 miles. Technically a hooter has a much longer sound chamber which produces the typical low note.

The Bullied whistles can be purchased from Dave's Replica Whistles (http://website.lineone.net/~simplex_no6/) and the site has photos of all his products. "Athelstan" uses Dave's Caledonian Hooter.

For miniature railways hooters are better as you get all the sound but none of the ear ache!

Happy steaming!
Tim

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:34:46 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Tim,

That web address is now invalid (page does not exist) - do you have any other details as I'd like to buy a replica A4 chime whistle if possible......

Thanks,
Peter

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:38:56 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Found it. It's now:

www.daveswhistles.d04.net

but no chime whistle (sigh !!))

Peter

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 12:43:46 -0500
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



I was really interested in Dave's Whistles until I saw he does not ship out side of the UK.
Too bad. I would have been interested in one of his designs.
Thomas Scott
US of A

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:27:25 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Re: Whistles (was Athelstan etc)



Thomas,

I know Dave so I have asked him to consider what he needs to satisfy overseas shipping. He is a "One-man-band" so he will need to be sure that there is minimal risk. If he did agree to ship outside the UK note that shipping charges are likely to be quite steep.

I'll report back when I know more.

Regards,
Tim

Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 20:59:11 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Whistles (was Athelstan etc)



i've bought several concertinas from a small dealer in the UK and he required a cashers check in British pounds which i can get from my bank. a bit of trouble but do-able.
fred v

Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:01:29 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: RE: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Hi Tim,

Thanks for the explanation. Wow, if "For miniature railways hooters are better as you get all the sound but none of the ear ache!", and you can hear Thor's Hooter 2 miles away; if you take a pull on Thor's Bullied Whistle -- you had better Watch Out! (or get ear plugs)

Another question.
On the Moors Valley Railway, I know that you are running 7 1/4 gauge. Are the flanges on the locomotive and car wheels done to 1 1/2 scale, or are they true 3 3/4 inch scale flanges? It would seem like "true scale" flanges would be less likely to derail; but if you were ever to run on another 7 1/4 inch track, you would tear up the switches/turnouts.

Thanks,
Bruce

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 09:50:58 +0100
From: "Peter Beevers"

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Bruce,

Moors Valley wheels are to Moors Valley profiles !

To put it simply, in the UK there are two standards: Standard and narrow gauge. Standard gauge has 6 7/8" back to back, narrow gauge 6 3/4" back to back. Most tracks take either, but some (a very few) are standard gauge only.

Narrow gauge profile allows a wheel width of at least 1" - Moors Valley use up to 1 1/2" which is massive and looks great. It also would compensate for a good deal of road spread......

If you want any more details I can post the 7.25" gauge standards, which are (almost) UK standard.

Peter

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 15:28:25 -0000
From: "Trevor Heath"

Subject: African Live Steam Meet, High Wycombe, England July 9th 2005



The meet is being held at the track of the High Wycombe Model Engineers located at:

Holmer Green Sports Association
Watchet Lane
Holmer Green
High Wycombe
England

OS Explorer Map Sheet 172

Grid Ref. 898,976

There is a map on their website http://www.HWMEC.co.uk/

TH

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 19:14:13 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: African Live Steam Meet, High Wycombe, England July 9th 2005



Is this it. Trevor?
http://tinyurl.com/8d7ea
;->)
Arno

Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 19:55:31 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Hi Bruce,

Sorry for late reply - Peter Beevers has given the answer to your question re tyre/wheel back to back. My supplementary question is:
Given Peters response, would a Moors loco work on 7.5" track to US standards?

Incedentally the Moors uses aluminium rail to a NG profile - it does spread and I anticipate Athelstan's 33" wheelbase causing havoc in due course :-)

Re whistles: Thor's whistle has a 3/4" steam pipe. All the other locos use much smaller diameter steam pipes (Athelstan's main whistle has a 1/2" steam pipe) as the noise can be more than irritating to passengers. But bear in mind what Peter said, the Moors is a narrow gauge railway with un-typically big locos (Athelstan is 15'6" over buffer beams; 50" tall and 29" wide over cab roof). This means that not only can they carry large whistles but to a certain extend the bulk of the engine shields the passengers from excessive noise levels.
Thor's whistle is mounted below the running board and the noise levels can be restricted further by reducing the steam pipe diameter. Since Thor is not yet in service we will have to wait and see whether passengers wear ear protection...... It is a fact however that one of the volunteers who lives 2 miles as the crow flies from the main station can clearly hear Thor's whistle.

Happy steaming,
Tim

Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:51:01 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: RE: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Hi Tim,

Over here on the Left Coast, we run on 7 1/2 inch gauge track. At the risk of starting a hot debate, 7 1/2 inch is exactly the correct gauge for use with Narrow Gauge, modeled at 2 1/2, 3, or 3 3/4 inch scales (do the math). All scales use 1 1/2 inch wheel profiles. The Back-to-Back dimension is 7.12. You would probably have a problem running with a Back-to-Back of 6 3/4.

Over on our other coast, they like 7 1/4 gauge. That uses the same wheel profile, but with a Back-to-Back dimension of 6.88. Your Narrow Gauge wheels would probably be OK at most East coast tracks, but could be a problem on some with tight Guard Rails at switches (probably the same situation you have over on your island). I don t see how the width of the tread could hurt anything.

What I was wondering about was the depth of the flange on the Moors Valley Railway. Our standard (for both 7 1/4 and 7 1/2, Standard and Narrow) is 0.1875. With a flange width of 0.140.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong about any of this.

BTW, I run a 2 1/2 inch scale, 2 cylinder, 2 truck, Shay (Mich-Cal #2). Narrow Gauge (of course). Once you get into Narrow Gauge, Standard Gauge locomotives look small. Now that I have been looking at the photos of Moors Valley, 2 1/2 scale looks small. Driving the locomotive from inside the cab must just be the greatest.

Sincerely,
Bruce

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:53:17 -0400
From: Don and/or Wanda Orr

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



BRUCE

Sorry but there is a correction to what you told Tim about the right (Easty) coast. 7-1/4 is used and popular ONLY in the northern states, from Pennsylvania, new Jeysey up. I think they run both in Baltimore, but from there down into the glorious southland (and hot, and humid) it is entirely 7-1/2". I know of 1 7-1/4 private track in Virginia, but don't know if anyone else in the state has ever been there. He is a northern transplant. Further, it appears that mopst new tracks going in in Pa are 7-1/2", plus Mike Venesia in Jew Jersey's track is 7-1/2, plus another new track going in in NJ is 7-1/4. So please...those of us in the southeastern US of A are all 7-1/2.

And I am not rying to rekindle old flames here, just setting record straight.

don orr
www.locoparts.net

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:04:16 -0400
From: "Michael F. Looney"

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Don:
I can tell you for a fact that the track in Baltimore, Maryland is 7 1/2 and you no longer can run any 7 1/4 there at all, so add Maryland to all of the track that are now 7 1/2 because we have been that way for a while now, plus I will be needed to talk to you about a tender soon for the engine I am building.
Thanks Mike Looney

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:52:16 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



hey Bruce,
if you want to try a ride in cab give me about a year to finish mine.
you can run it at Wales West in So. Alabama.
fred v

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 12:26:34 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Fred,

What is you are building? I'm working (slowly) on a 3 3/4" scale 7 1/2" gauge Garratt that will be ride in the cab. My wife has aspirations of owning a 3 3/4" - 7 1/2" 2-4-4 based on the SR & RL locomotives again ride in the cab. I'm presently fooling with the design of 3 3/4" scale riding cars (with roofs) that the passengers will sit in. The riding cars will look a cross between Carnival Ride and 2' NG Prototype. I'm toying with the idea that the seats only allow for forward sitting (viewing) to minimize passengers turning and leaning and causing derailments and flips.

Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 16:46:06 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: Wales West



Hi Fred,

Thanks for the offer. I will be sure to look you up in a year. I tried to find a Web site for Wales West, but could not find a link at any of the sites I normally check (LiveSteaming.Com, TrainMountain.Org, DiscoverLiveSteam.Com, SteamingPriest.Com, etc.). Where in Alabama are you located? Are you 7 1/2 gauge? And to "second" Dennis' question, What are you building?

I changed the subject of this thread, as we are not really talking about the Moors Valley Railway anymore.

Hope to see you in a year,
Bruce

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:01:38 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: 7 1/2 gauge



Hi Don,

Thanks for the correction. I am happy to learn of the spread of 7 1/2 gauge in the East. Now if we could just get the rest of the world to "see the light". It is just too bad that we somehow ended up with two standards for the same thing. You probably know what I consider to be the more correct standard (at least for Narrow Gauge).

Time for an endorsement.
Out here in the foothills of California, we have a real big fire danger during the summer months. At the track where I run (American Flat Railroad), we only allow solid fuels during the winter months. If anyone out there is thinking of converting to propane, Don (at LocoParts.Net) makes great custom manifolds and burners. I have been running, for almost a year now, with one that Don built for my 2 1/2 inch scale Shay. I can recommend Don's work, and am completely satisfied with my purchase.

Sincerely,
Bruce

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:21:08 -0000
From: "Trevor Heath"

Subject: Re: 7 1/2 gauge



Nick Edwards in the lastest edition of 7 1/4 gauge news states the following:

7.25" Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, North East USA and Eastern Canada.

7.50" Rest of North America and (surprisingly to me) Japan.

I'm not aware of tracks in any other parts of the world such as South America.

Nick's own track in Texas is dual guage.

TH

Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:35:46 -0000
From: "Trevor Heath"

Subject: Video Candidate



A funny story (because no one was injured) coming out of the last meeting at TM

PBS was down at TM making a documentary about our hobby at the last meeting over the memorial day weekend.

Dennis Weaver was on his Shay with his string of ore cars in tow.
The cameraman was riding in one of the ore cars with his $80,000 camera. He was holding the camera out to the side to capture the action. According to the Guy in the Caboose, the cameraman kept leaning further and further out to better capture the loco at work.

Finally the ore car tipped over at an angle of 45 degrees and ejected the cameraman. Realising what was happening, he instinctivly curled up in a ball to protect the camera and hit the ground rolling.

The ore car then dropped back on the rails like nothing happened.

No word on if the footage from the camera after the ejection will be realeased, kept as part of the documentary or sent to that other TV program which specalizes in such footage......

The camera was saved.

TH

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:32:14 +0200
From: "Johan"

Subject: Re: 7 1/2 gauge



Hi Bruce,
My 2 cents worth. It is only one section or part of the USA that are conforming to 7 1/2" whilst the rest of the USA, as well as the rest of the world, which is really the majority uses 7 1/4". Surely should the 7 1/2" guys not "see the light".? ;-)
Johan.

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:37:02 +0000
From: "Phil Ashworth"

Subject: Re: 7 1/2 gauge



Perhaps we need a true British-style compromise..

how about us all adopting seven and three-eigths?

Phil Ashworth,
with tongue in cheek in Oxfordshire!

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:01:17 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: 7 1/2 gauge



How about all of us seeing the light and re-gauge to the proper scale of 7.0625" for standard gauge.
;->)
Arno

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:54:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Keeline

Subject: Re: 7 1/2 gauge



I know this is one of those old debates. However, as a beginner in this field, it would be interesting to know how many layouts and how many miles of track are available for each size worldwide. Is there a really good list?

Since I live in San Diego, California, there's really only one choice for me:
7.5" but it is interesting to hear people recount different stories about the reasons for the gauge difference.
Also, I believe that Walt Disney's Carrollwood home layout was 7.25" even though the LA Live Steamers would adopt 7.5" when they opened about 50 years ago--around the time Walt was opening his park.

For my own prototype, Disneyland's Mine Train Thru Nature's Wonderland (still in the dreaming/planning stage), the 7.5" gauge is perfect since it is exactly 3" scale (1/4) of the 30" gauge prototype. I even have blueprint-style drawings that are in this scale to simplify the model building. For those who are unfamiliar with this ride which predated the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad roller coaster, here are some pictures (http://Keeline.com/MT).

James

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 08:21:24 -0700
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: Whats this guage thing.



Gentlemen,

Lets get on the gloves and go a few rounds. I prefer 7 1/2" quite frankly. But of course that is my opinion and my Rail Rider Supply speeder will handle both guages, 7 1/4"----7 1/2" very nicely.

Now if the rest of the world would get with it and change to 7 1/2" they really would see the light. But whats in a 1/4" anyway. Can one really tell the difference when running.

I would suppose the next thing we have to haggle about is the width at which we lay rail. Here again I think that 7 5/8" does the trick better than 7 1/2' or 7 9/16". We have to have a little lateral play you know.

Very best to all,
Bob

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:51:17 -0000
From: "Trevor Heath"

Subject: Re: 7 1/2 gauge



I believe someone did do a study at one time. It would though be out of date the following week such is the expansion rate of existing tracks and the opening of new clubs and the proliferation of private tracks. What ever you think is the number of tracks in, for example the USA. I'll venture the real number is double.

I believe the last attempt at a study showed the majority of loco's, rolling stock and track to be 7.5" gauge. Reasons given were the general affluance of the USA and the space avaiable to lay longer tracks which generally is not available in, for example Europe.

As for the reasons why two gauges. It is not even worth the time to discuss.

TH

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:33:17 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Re: Whats this guage thing.



OK guys, lets put this to rest.
In then US, only the NORTHEAST part of the uses 7 1/4 gauge. This is commonly called NEW ENGLAND, HA!!.
Anyway, all the rest of the US is in 7 1/2 gauge.
Now this is a referral to the gauge. I have only witnessed one track at the true 7 1/2. And many derailments. Most tracks use 7 9/16 While we use 7 5/8 for our narrow gauge railroad
Now 3 3/4 SCALE on 7 1/2 gauge = scaled 2ft. gauge railroading. 2 1/2 scale on 7 1/2 gauge = 30in railroading.
Hope this helps.
Bill

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:51:36 -0400
From: bruceodelberg@netscape.net

Subject: RE: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Bill,

Slight correction here. 2 1/2 inch scale (on 7 1/2 gauge) = 36 inch full scale
3 inch scale (on 7 1/2 gauge) = 30 inch full scale

Sincerely,
Bruce

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:52:11 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Also recall conversations in the past on what the Zinnzinate Zinder Znifters did on their track to accomodate both gauges.

And my enfeehled mind just recalled a tangent this group took off on, this being movable point switch frigs.Somewhere in my stuff is a venerable technical paper on the original US two Footer, the Bedford and Bellrica in Mass. I remember such a beastey in said piece.

If I find it, anyone is welcome to it.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 18:56:01 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Whats this guage thing.



The people at Finger Lakes, Tonawanda Creek and Eden, NY will be very impressed that you moved them from Western New York to New England.
Arno

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:18:12 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Bill & Bruce,
one more "scale" to correct the "problem".
1.6" scale is almost exact for 7 1/2" gauge. (My scale of choice)
1.54 scale for 7 1/4" gauge.
Bigger IS better!. Go for it.
RichD

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:03:09 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Please, Please, Please. Don't sent me to New England. I like it right here in western New York. When my wife retires I might move to Arizona and put in a 7 1/4 gauge track. Just to upset the apple cart.

Bill C.
Beaver Creek railway
Tonawanda Creek Model Engineers

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:05:36 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Rich,

They also forgot the 3 3/4" = 2 foot and ride in the cab locomotives.

kind regards
Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:15:53 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Absolutely, Dennis.
I have a Ken Swan "Wren" 0-4-0 seasoning under the bench waiting for my retirement coming up soon.
Rich

Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:53:23 EDT
From: tomeagles44@aol.com

Subject: Connecting to an old friend!!



Bill

Tom Eagles here I am a live steamer now I am doing 7/8"=1" 7/8N2 on "G" gauge track I have an 0-4-4 using a Round House mechanism 0-6-0 converted to 0-4-4 to make SR&RL # 6. I also have a 2-4-4 battery powered with RC and sound. and a few scratch built SR&RL freight cars ,caboose and working on a Combine 42"s long in this scale.
Retired from the Marine Corps Civil Service the 15th of June and Karin and I are moving to 305 Asheton Lakes Way Simpsonville, SC 29681,
My E-Mail will stay the same tomeagles44@aol.com.
Miss you guys in Western, NY Please keep in touch. Someday a 3 3/4" on 71/2" would be nice !

V/R
Tom 7/8N2 Eagles
"Maine Done Right!!"

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:40:40 +1200
From: Grant & Donna Alexander

Subject: Covered passenger cars



Dennis,

Now that IS interesting, covered passenger cars in 7+ gauge. What sort of loading gauge are you anticipating, and how will you get your passengers facing forward. I take it that you'll have transverse seating with fixed back rests... How many passengers can you carry in one car, and how long will they be? So many questions, so many ideas...

I too have thought long and hard about roofs for the passenger cars, but was just contemplating a steel frame with a canvas type cover. All removable from the main body of the cars for travelling.

Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley,
Cambridge,
New Zealand.

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:49:01 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars



Grant,

At present they are mostly figments of our imagination. A friend of mine and I have been toying with the idea of cars similar to those designed by BCSME with some tricky modifications. I like the idea of the long bench which forces straight in-line seating. The backs would be bracketed to allow for aft swinging for bi-directional running of the car but all would face either for or aft; not individually. The roof would be removable and held overhead by moulded units that fit into pockets within the moulded sides.

We are looking at about 27" inside 'ST'* factor and this would make the cars about 30" wide overall. I was hoping to get them about 4 to 6 people long for when the club has run days. We have access to a rather large moulding cutter (can make 30' yacht moulds) and are contemplating designing the thing to come from four separate moulds and then cast it all in plastic for attaching to metal support frames.

We have done a couple of drawings (back of cigarette packs style) and feel that it is a feasible project. First priority for me is a 3 3/4" Garratt and for my friend her 3 3/4" Shay. Once these are complete the construction of riding cars will be the next step. Still mostly back burner stuff but it could be moved to the front if some brilliant ideas suddenly rear their heads.

* standard tush factor

kind regards
Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:28:28 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Re: Covered passenger cars



Dennis,

I recall a photo taken at one of the english clubs where they had covered seating. Each car was of a depressed centre flatcar format and seat was a bench, between each seat was the 'doorway'. A passenger could enter and sit on either seat to face either direction. The clever bit was that if a passenger entered and sat on say the left seat, the person entering the car by the next door when sitting to the left, was actually sitting on the bench the first passenger would have had if he had sat down to the right. There was only one seat between each doorway:



This means one seat at the end is always going to be facing the wrong way - perfect for Parent and small child. Car sides were wider that the bench, but narrowed down to 4-5" once past the bench height and radiused back near the roof to suggest a 'doorway', while also serving as the windows if this makes sense. Rather like the doorway shape on some older narrow guage English locomotives. This gave the cars a streetcar or trolley look.

The biggest objection you are likely to hear is that it can't carry as many people. Well I think four adults is plenty on one straddle car anyway - same as this car can carry.

Hope this helps. If it is of use I will try to look out the photo.

Chris Draper
Winter Creek Bush Tramway

www.thefunnyfarm.co.nz/WinterCreekIntro.htm

Auckland, New Zealand

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:03:56 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Re: Whats this guage thing.



OK I didn't mean to say that all the northeast is New England, but all the north east -----Eastern Ohio has one 7 1/4 track but allthe states from Maine to virginia are the gauge that started live steam in the states as we know it.
Bill

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:43:34 -0400
From: Don and/or Wanda Orr

Subject: Re: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Bill

You best stop while you are ahead. Virginia is NOT a 7-1/4" state.
There is 1 private track in this staet in 7-1/4" and to my knowledge no one else in this state haseven been there, to visit or otherwisee. All other tracks are 7-1/2", as is most of MAryland, Delaware, and now a lot of Pennsylvania...at least all I have heard that all the new tracks in PA are going in as 7-1/2"

You best change your comment to "all the states from Maine to New Jersey.........."

don orr
www.locoparts.net
Grasshopper Shortline Railroad, 7-1/2"
Suffolk, Virginia, USA

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 23:32:24 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: RE: covered coaches



Check out the 7 1/2 gauge coaches from the Sandy River and Clear Lake Railroad. Click on the years 2001 and 2002
Bill

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 20:30:47 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars



Have a look at Michael Guy's Dining Car on 7-1/4" track.



Michael,
I know the sack kart handle does not look nice, but why is this one not on your web pages.
(for information on my Garratt project)
Arno

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:20:05 -0400
From: bgwmoxie@aol.com

Subject: Re: Whats this guage thing.



Movable switch frogs...seen some of those last year up on a railcar run...in Nova Scotia...
Ah-yah...

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:50:26 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: Covered passenger cars



Chris,



I was looking at a longitudinal bench as above but with hinged seat backs between every door opening. I am trying to devise a system that would link all the seat backs together and move them all either for or aft and force the riders to sit facing the same way. Tends to prevent people who are riding facing backwards who want to turn and look forwards an upsetting the balance point of the car. I have seen cars flipped by people turning around to face the other direction.

kind regards Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 10:01:11 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Re: Covered passenger cars



Dennis,

I believe that some of the UK builders that have tall covered cars use some type of ballast (perhaps concrete) in the under-frames to compensate for the higher center of gravity. Cars of this type have been seen in videos of the Wayside Light Railway and Moors Valley Railway among others.

Cheers,

James Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:09:16 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: Covered passenger cars



Jim,

A few years ago someone kindly sent me a vid clip (or thereabouts) of the Moors Valley Railway and especially the "William Rufus" and you can tell the effect it had on me by the locomotive I am presently working towards completing.. :o) Yes the Moors Valley cars are quite large and the added ballast wasn't something that I was aware of and this definitely will be worked into the equation. I have to be careful not to emulate carnival in my efforts to design a largish riding car. A couple of the ideas I've heard from this list have sure added fuel to the old thought process. In fact an off list posting has added a beaut of a way to make all seat backs face the way we want people to sit while riding. Funny how it is that the obvious sometimes just doesn't jump up and kick you in the teeth.

I have to thank you, Russell, Trevor and a gang of others who have encouraged me and offered assistance. Out of curiosity will you be at TM for the Triennial next summer? I figure that I owe you at least a beer or three by now; and I would love to chat in person.

kind regards
Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:12:14 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Athelstan arrives (well, almost)



Dennis, what i'm building is actually 2 engines with outside frames.
one is a 2-6-4ST ride in cab and a 2-6-0 tender engine. the big one is 48" high, 27" wide and 8ft. long. 3" bore, 4" stroke, 8" drivers, 12" boiler and weigh in at around 1,200 Lb.. i have the 2 frames mostly made and am starting on the side rods and cylinders. they are not a scale of anything but will look like Welsh narrow gauge.

there are several Garretts running around the world. i've seen the one at Moorsvalley and the article in 7+ magazine.

keep u posted on progress.
fred v

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:20:24 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Wales West



Wales West is in Silverhill, Alabama near Mobile.
www.waleswest.com
this is a 5 star RV campground with a 2ft. ga. Hunslet style steamer and a 7.5" ga. live steam track that is open to all who want to come and run. the first loop of track is about 2/3 finished and will be about 1/2 mile long a second loop will up it to 1 mile. by directional running and card order meets are planned.

i'm not the owner i'm a volunteer and am building the 7+ track.
fred v

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:26:45 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars

have a look at this site in the UK. these guys are way ahead of us here in the states.
http://www.brookside-miniature-railway.co.uk/bgcrailway.htm
fred v

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:43:33 -0000
From: "Fred Rorex"

Subject: Re: covered coaches



I was looking to see if anyone had posted this site. I have downloaded all the AutoCad drawings. I am going to see if I can get a friend of mine to plot them out on big E size sheets. Eventually, I want to build 3, 4 , a dozen :-) to pull behind the Sweet Creek that I have started, sort of.....
Fred

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:03:27 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Re: Covered passenger cars



I'm sure planning at being at Train mountain Dennis. I expect to know any there personally, but like you are looking forward to putting a face to some of the names that frequent this list

Chris Draper
Winter Creek Bush Tramway

www.thefunnyfarm.co.nz/WinterCreekIntro.htm
Auckland, New Zealand

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:54:54 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Re: Covered passenger cars



Chris,

I ran into a fellow citizen of Auckland about two weeks ago here in Port Alberni. I have only met one person from Auckland and the bloke I ran into knew Dave Giles quite well, small world isn't it? Bill Jopling whom I met while doing the conductor (guard) job here in Port Alberni on the Alberni Pacific Railway, is a driver on your local heritage railway. By any chance do you know him?

kind regards
Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:49:21 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Re: Covered passenger cars



All Kiwis involved in the larger scales knows Dave Giles!

Cant say I know Bill Jopling, but as you say - small world.

See you next year.

Chris

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:06:56 +0000
From: "Phil Ashworth"

Subject: Covered passenger cars and scale!



I am a newcomer to the group and live near Oxford in the UK. I own and drive a 1/3rd scale Hunslet.

It is very interesting visiting the States and Canada; I will be there again soon. I love the international brotherhood of railway or railroad engineering and seeing how everyone does things in different ways. It is the strength of the hobby! Every time I cross the Atlantic I come back with a crop of good ideas.

Since I became a loco owner and not just an armchair engineer, the movement towards narrow gauge rather than scale models seems to have accelerated, especially at my club.

There is an argument that says some of the locos, like a Romulus or a Tinkerbell, are not scale models at all. In fact they are 12 inch to the foot versions of very narrow guage locos. And as with the real thing the only governing factors are will it go round the bends with out falling off and under bridges without knocking bits off!! Scale in that sort of arena is thus less important than with genuine scale standard guage models.

The debate about enclosed coaches is an interesting one. They are certainly impressive to look at but if I was to visit someone s railway I would rather sit in an open coach. You see and hear so much more. When I visit the peerless Ravenglass and Eskdale railway in Cumbria I prefer to sit outside even if it is below zero! You miss so much of the railway and the countryside in a coach. The only place to sit that s any better is on the loco!

As our French friends would say Viva la difference only I don t think they were talking about seven and a quarter or seven and half!

Phil Ashworth

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:41:25 EDT
From: kennarwing@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1255



Suppose each seat back pivoted on a rod through the straddle seat. Now suppose inside the saddle, each pivot rod had crank attached at the same angle as the seat back. Now connect all the cranks. Voila.

Ken Wing

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:55:17 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars



i was hoping Tim would contribute some info on how thay do it at Moorsvalley.
fred v

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:21:59 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1255



Ken,

I got an off list reply very similar to your suggestion but with the added operating system that quickly moves sets and locks the seat backs in place. I forgot the distance from the pivot point does not have to equal the distance to the top of the seat back. The activation arm below the straddle will just have to move a slight amount to swing the seat backs from full for to full aft. The locking done by notches in the link shaft where it exits the A end of the car.



Hope this ascii attempt works.

kind regards Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:51:34 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars



Hi Fred!

Here's my 7.25 pence worth.

The Moors has 5 covered coaches, plus a pair of vans and a bogie brake van.

In all cases the main frame has a section between the bogies which is as deep (or slightly deeper (say 3") below the frames which has a substantial floor of (say 6mm/.25") steel. This gives some stability, however the bigger issue is side wind. Although they have a very light construction, mostly ply-wood sides and either a thin aluminum or ply roof, the cars roll alalarmingly with any passengers inside. We simply don't use them in regular service and not at all if there is any wind about as they have been blown over..... :-( not good for the image really.

All bar one have a logitudinal bench seat (no seat backs) and could seat 5 adults if you could get through the doors (!) - max capacity is probably 2 at best depending on how flexible you are. By far the best car is the earlier of our semi-opens (about 25+ years old now). This seats 4 in 2+2 formation. The foot-well in each "compartment" is floored as above, but under the centre seat is a chunk of concrete for additional stability. The car has ends and a roof, but apart from arm rests no sides (thus reducing side wind resistance) Each passenger is seated comfortably but unless he leans out the stabilty of the car is not compromised. Although old and battered the design is sound.

I would reccommend this design if capacity is not an issue. All our other coaches are open's with a single bench seat and can seat about 6 on a busy day. These have again got a large slab of concrete in the floor which is cast in once the frames have been welded up.

Pictures can be found at:

http://www.moorsvalleyrailway.co.uk/rollingstockgallery.html

Also check out the 7.25 railway at Pecorama:

http://www.peco-uk.com/pecorama_bhlr.htm

Although no roofs the coaches also follow the 2+2 format and interestingly at least one set has articulated coaches which add to sability by offsetting any tipping movement over a greater mass. Add roofs and you could be in business....

Re the Wayside Railway (the one I know of by this name is in Kent, England) their covered coaches are in fact pullman dining cars, seating two people each with a table in the centre. Once seated you pull out a table extension from under the centre table to allow for a full meal to be served! If I can get pictures I'll post them here.

Fred - If you'd like some detail shots of the Moors Valley coaches I'll be there this Friday.

Happy steaming,

Tim

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 13:54:08 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Riding Car Seats



Dennis,

Since most of our train rides (except in Chiloquin) are 10 to 15 minutes long, it seems a waste to bother with seat backs on the riding cars. Even at TM they are really not necessary. The standard straddle car works well and helps keep the riders in line. Yes, I have built them and ridden on them for hours.

The boat seat/tractor seat cars I have ridden on had the seats mounted so high the car felt really tipsy on 7.5" gauge. As a personal opinion, the boat seats don't belong on a train. (Just an opinion worth less than the traditional 2 cents.) ;-)

Cheers,

Jim Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 17:51:04 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Riding Car Seats



Jim,

My idea behind the seat backs on the straddle cars is to keep the bozos er riders all facing the same way. If they see seat backs they tend to sit facing forward and most of the clubs up this neck of the woods require passengers to face forward.
--
kind regards
Dennis, living in Port Alberni BC, Canada

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:26:15 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars



thanks, Tim, i'd really appreciate it. you could post them here so everyone can see.
fred

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:02:46 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Covered passenger cars



Some 'back of an envelope engineering and musings'.

Using Recommended practices from LALSRM in Southern California (for 7.5 inch gauge) Axle loading with 4.125 inch diameter wheels is 425 lbs maximum. This was developed when we were using alloy Aluminium rail. for a four axle car then the maximum weight, loaded, is 1700 lbs.

Freight car prototypes try to keep the loaded Center of Gravity (CG) verticlly below 12 feet, and prefferably below 8 feet, above rail head. This scales to about 1.0 to 1.5 feet above our rail head (using 1.5 inch to the foot scale).

The lateral limits for CG are the Center Lines (CL) of the rails, because if the CG is inside these two points the car will remain upright on level track. this translates to about 4 inches from CL to either side. This dimension is for static conditions and will shrink for dynamic (moving) conditions or if the track is not cross level or not superelevated in curves.

From memory, I believe the CG of an adult Human seated is about 9 or 10 inches above the seating surface. LALSRM has a requirement that passenger seats for the public be no more than 10 inches above the floor of the car and have features that limit the lateral positioning of the passenger's 'seat' so that passengers are close to the CL of the car laterally.

Postulating an empty car weight of 300 lbs and a live load of five 225 lbs adult humans, the total weight of the loaded car is about 1425 lbs. and if evenly distributed lengthwise on four axles, would yeald about 356-1/4 lbs per axle.

Assumeing a floor height of 6 inches above railhead and totlaing the dimensinos the passenger CG is about 25 or 26 inches above railhead, about twice the scaled preferred maximum for freight cars.

Assuming the empty car CG is even wiht the top of floor, or 6 inches ablve rail head, and doing a moment arm calculation, the combined height would be between 21 and 21-21/32 inches above rail head.

Again assuming freight car parts and dimensions, the side bearings will be at about 3-1/8 inch from CL and have about 1/64 to 3/64 inch clearance when sitting level. This means there would be a possible leaning movement of the Lateral CG of about 5/16 inch to either side before the side bearings would make contact.

Practically I see this in watching a string of loaded passenger cars moving along a relativly straight section of track, the cars 'tip' from side to side as passengers shift slightly for a better view.

Obviously, when the car is in motion around a curve, the CG will move laterally generally to the inside of the curve due to difference between the chord and arc of the curve but would be forced outward by lateral acceleration due to speed in the curve. A combination of speed ,negative superelevation of the track, and leaning passengers can result wiht the car lifting the inside wheels and rolling to the outside of the curve (end result derail with the car and passengers spilled along the right of way).

What might mitigate this problem through design?
1. Ballast set very low inthe car fram to lower the car CG while increasing the empty weight (and moment arm of the car).
2. Lower floor height.
3. Lower seat height (there is a practical limit to this for adults).
4. Use of an none-freight car truck design, to use suspension geometry to effectivly lower CG of loaded car or to get the CG to move inward on curves.

The safest ballast I know about is Tunsten blocks properly secured to prevent shifting or loss, but is HARD to work in a home shop and is Expensive to purchase in large plates or blocks.

Lead, though good for weight, has poor mechanical strengt and fasteners tend ot strip out from vibration in use.

Steel is easier to work and will usually stay where it is intended if properly fastended.
Concrete is also heavy and cheap but powers under vibration over time.

Lower floor height is addressed with the 'drop center' style car body floor.

Lower seat height would increase time to load and unload passengers adn be a problem to older or 'disabled' persons.

The proper use of swing bolster lateral motion and suspension designs can cause the car body to tilt toward the inside of a curve in proportion to the speed through the curve.
Truck designs like those used on the Santa Fe high level chair cars may be useful as the cars rode well at high speed and in curves.

As we go up in scale on the sam gauge track, CGs seem to stay the same but the vehicle dimensions get larger. Larger wheels would allow higher axle loadings for the same stress at the wheel-rail contact area.

Example: David Rohrer's Sandy River 0-4-4 when in running condition but before the cab was finished, tilted (side bearing clearance and/or suspension movement) but remained solidly on the track when 200 lbs of live load was applied about 6-8 inches outboard of the cab floor edge (I grabbed the opposite side of the floor and lifted my feet while the loco was on a raised steaming bay).

Just my personal opinions for general comments.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:41:52 -0000
From: "fred veenschoten"

Subject: trailing truck problem



i'm building a "ride in cab" engine 2-6-4. the trailing truck ends up being about 33" behind the rear driver. in drawing this up it looks like it will not track well in a curve. i can't get the truck yoke pivot point far enough forward. i had the thought of not using a fixed yoke but maybe a long draw bar so the truck could swivel as well as move laterally.

any suggestions?
thanks,
fred v