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7-Plus-NGM Digest September 2000

Date: 1 Sep 2000 05:02:03 -0000
From: 7-plus-NGM@egroups.com

Subject: Reminder - Rio Grande Scenic Railroad 15th annual m...



We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Rio Grande Scenic Railroad 15th annual meet

Date: Friday, September 15, 2000
Time: All Day

Annual Meet hosted by Gail O. Gish. Sept 15 thru 17

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 18:46:59 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Reminder - LALS-meeting, Griffth Park Los Angeles



Quick note, taking the easy route for a reply to our moderator:

I've found, through modest diligence and great good luck, my very good freehand sketch to 1/2" / 1' scale of the little Plymouth noe at Sheepscot Station on the WW&F. Also located some pix that might have been better if the new caboose hadn't been in the way so I could get a full broadside of her. Couldn't get these copied today as the local Mailbox Xerox was tied up with an infinite printing of a local high school football schedule. Maybe tomorrow.

If you, Hulbert (sp?) are still out there convorting about Calif. with Rudy and Crewe
Let me know how much time I have to get this out to you before you repair to the Old Country.

Seems to me someone else in this NG pacel expresed interest in #52, which might be the next SV/D&RGW #50 to NG modelers? Let me know and I'll snail mail you cc's of the prints/photos.

Still no scanner.
Cam Brown

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 17:36:28 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Offensive Advertisements



Hubert:

I have noticed recently that the advertisements that appear on postings are now at the top of the posting so that it is the first thing that I see. I FIND THIS VERY VERY VERY ANNOYING AND OFFENSIVE. When you get back from your trip I would ask that you inquire of egroups if this is going to persist. If it is not possible to change, then I will encourage everyone on this forum to unsubscribe and find another forum.

How does everyone else feel about this blatant exploitation of our eyeballs. Is there another existing forum to which we can migrate or do we have to create something new?

Quentin

Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:39:10 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



I have a web site with an open forum for 7 inch plus. No email integration yet but no ads either. I prefer forums since you get to follow the thread all the way through.

My site is http://www.largetrains.com

You are ALL welcome to check it out or even move there. I will have file sections shortly as well as email integration. The email function should be similar to egroups but no ads.

Yes, it is a side business for me. The income comes from the hosting side, not much income at that. I will also be getting some sponsors for the site and a forum or two. This will be in the form of a non-animated banner at the top of the page. (I can't stand animated ads.) All ads will be train related, no credit card junk. Nothing in the posts. I hope to break even in a few years. I have an ad going into Garden Railways, Live Steam, Light Iron Digest, and Modeltec magazines.

I was not going to announce this until I had everything running, but I just thought I'd offer you folks an alternative. Please let me know if this is a workable solution for the group. If not, let me know what you need and I'll see what I can do.

Stan Zdonick
Engineer
Large Trains On-Line

Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:19:21 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Stan:

I have signed on at the new site. What is a newbie at a newbie site called?
We will have to see if anyone else is as disgusted as I am with the ads.

Quentin

Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 21:27:12
From: Ian McKinley

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Hi Quentin

I am on several egroups lists and this has happened on all of them. As I understand it this is a quick explanation of the problem.

These lists cost money and that money comes from the sale of advertising. Just like newspapers, magazines, radio, and TV. If the advertisers don't think that there is sufficant return on there investment (the advertising) then they will not want to continue to pay for it, and then egroups looses money. With the advertisements at the end every body can skip them. Egroups probably hopes that by moving the adds to the front of the message more people will read them and buy products.

Is egroups greedy? I don't know.

Do we have options? YES

1. The moderator can pay $4.95 per month payable in one annual payment of $54.90. This will get rid of the adds.

2. If you read the messages as ASCII the add is only about 4 lines long and you can scroll past it very quickly just as you do now with the header.

3. Go find another list provider. Someone has to pay for any list.

A. the moderator may pay because he wants to provide the list as a service.

B. Universities provide lists so the students can learn how to take care of them, there may still be a fee.

C. The list moderator may own the server that the list is on.

4. Stan Zdonick has made an offer. If his service can be downloaded and red off-line that is good. However if it must be read on-line I would not go for it for the more busy lists.

Many of the lists I am on decided to not give egroups any more money and just ignore the adds.

Ian

Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 00:42:17 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Ian:

I have a number of problems with the egroups approach.

1. First, it takes too much of my time. I can decide to delete a message quickly if I can see it the instant it pops up. With the ads, I have to scroll down to determine the subject matter of the message with the result that a delete session takes me twice as long. I am not willing to spend my time in that way.

2. They fail to realize that they are not the only game in town. There are lots of way to handle ads. Putting the ad first is not acceptable to me, and I suspect, lots of other people. If they do not change their approach, I will leave the group. In deference to Hubert, who organized the form in the first place, I will not do so until he has had a chance to discuss it with egroups.

3. I raised the sale of eyeballs issue some months ago and never had the courtesy of a reply from egroups. Since then, they have done exactly what I expected: sold out to a larger outfit. I do not object to profit. But I would have thought that there would be some gesture to those who make the profit possible. Instead, they have begun an "in-your-face" approach to those who made their paper profits possible with their advertising. I suppose it is the arrogance that offends me as much as anything else. There are so many ways to make your customers your allies and not your enemies. The egroups people are really so inept.

I will watch and see if Stan's site answers the problem. If not, I will simply drop out for a while. If I do, the hobby will have my e-mail address and can contact me directly.

Quentin

Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 01:00:56 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Ian:

How many groups are you on?

Quentin

Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:46:32 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: ltol vs. egroups



I don't have email support yet, that will be in about a month. With that, you will be able to read forum posts off-line.

I belong to 14 groups and moderate 2 of them. I saw this issue coming. I read my email in text only mode, but the ads are still annoying. It will get worse now that yahoo owns them.

Yes, the ads are meant to "pay the bills" but in email they can add quite a load. 6 lines of text that have nothing to do with trains in every email. For users of Outlook they get those awful animated banners since they don't have a choice of text only.

I will be redirecting my efforts to create a more egroups like experience. I had planned to add classified ads and auction software next. I will work on a file upload system and the email link to forums.

For those of you who want to try out my system it is the only one for trains that allows you to specify how the forum looks. With all the other sites you are stuck with UBB or Web BBS format. Try the different themes until you find the one you like.

Stan

Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:19:09 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: ltol vs. egroups



'Tis sad. We went from the rousing inside/outside frame debate to the tempest over ads. Doesn't bother me as I scroll quickly and pay no more attewntion to them than I do telemarketers, pleas from political parties ( are you listening Jim N.?) or earnest young people clutching clipboards who appear at the door seeking signitures on petitions espousing one cause or another,

How about getting back to basics? What is the proper profile for an engine house/car barn roof? Just saw pix of new engine house at Waushakum (which they adapted from ALS, which we got from NJLSers. Got to balance prototype beauty, utility and cost. With a double pinch ofrailroady esthetics. We don't want something that looks like a commercial chicken house or hog shed.

Current favorite is the Tweetsie engine house and shop at Johnson City, TN with thanks to the Little River site in this e-group. Fie on those who don't appreciate my wisdom.

cam B

Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 09:30:12 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Yes, I do not like it either, but that is the price we pay for this service.

As Stan said, if read in ASCII one automatically scans below the dashed line to see if this eMail is of interest to be rad in full.

I am a moderator in a listbot group.
Listbot is now owned by Microsoft and called Microsoft bCentral.

At the moment the ads are at the sig lines but I feel that it is only a matter of time until they will change that.

The only real option at this time is to all just use Keith's livesteamers again and just preface the subject line with 7+ .
That would have the additional advantage that those, who are on both lists do not have the read the same article twice from the cross-posters.
Arno

Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:39:32 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Offensive Advertisements



I don't know what I am doing wrong, but the first thing that hits my eye when I click on the above URL is:

08/24/00
Hosting is up, Great Prices!

As that URL was supposed to be an alternative to offensive ads, I did not bother to check out the rest of the page.
Arno

Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 17:53:09 -0400
From: brotherbob@mindspring.com

Subject: Re: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Well all I know is that I belong to several lists that do not (as of now) slap an ad in your face. This list should move to where the "Speeders" list is at "lists.cirr.com". So until things get settled down I say take care all and its been great belonging to this list and learning from so many great people.

Sincerely,

Bob
The Unsubscribed

Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:43:05 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Sorry



I'm sorry I offended you with the web hosting comment. If that was the first thing that you saw, there may be something wrong with your browser. That information is on the bottom of the page in the news section. It is part of the services I offer. It's not meant to be an ad, I offer this service for folks who are tired of the "free" alternatives that blast you with banner ads. I can't please everyone but I'm trying to provide things people have asked for.

I removed the comment from the news to avoid future users from being offended. If you find anything else that's a real problem for you please let me know.

Stan

Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 09:04:23 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Generator engine



Has anyone built an engine around a 110/220 Volt Generator? I have one from my days in Florida, a 5Kw model. I thought it would be useful around the club but I have no experience controlling 1 HP, 110 volt motors. I assume I can use a couple DC motors an build some sort of SCR based controller.

If anyone has done this, please respond.

Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:13:21 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Handicap car



Pioneer Valley Live Steamers is having its fall meet in a couple weeks and I don't think we have a handicap car. Live Steam magazine had plans for a handicap car sometime back. If anyone knows what issue they were in I'd like to find them to see if we could build one before the meet. I'll track down a copy of the issue somewhere.

Thanks,

Stan

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 15:20:16 +0100
From: jonathan.joseph@rexam.com

Subject: Re: Generator engine



Stan,

I haven't built a railroad engine on this basis, but I have thought about it... what I got is some experience of trying to run industrial equipment off gensets (or rather, protracted experience of watching other people trying to do it, and then fixing the electrical drive they've blown up.)

One of the biggest problems is surge protection - portable gensets (I can't vouch for particular models/brands here) have a tendency to be somewhat uncontrolled in their output and kick out all kinds of spikes, plus variable frequency.

What I would do is (based on what I know works with gensets elsewhere):

Route the output from your generator into a suitably rated frequency inverter - You'd probably be best sourcing a European rather than US one, since our mains is 230v single phase, and 440v 3ph - the components will have an even chance of surviving most things a 110v generator can throw at them. Make sure that the model selected is able to run at a lower bus voltage and give 110v output, rather than detect your US spec input as a 'low voltage' fault and trip. The manufacturer can advise on this - if they don't have an answer off pat ('Our drives operate from x volts upwards...') WALK AWAY.

Using a suitable filter on the Inverter input may also help to protect it - but might well cost as much as the inverter a SINUS filter is porbably the most effective, but is quite a piece of kit in it's own right.

Then take your 110/220v 3ph output from the inverter (110 would be better), and wire it in parallel to however many suitably sized induction motors you need - these can be force ventilated by blowers from the main ac supply if you intend to use high TE at low speed for prolonged periods.

The advantage of this is that induction motors are a) incredibly cheap, and b) so simple they're almost bombproof.

You can do a similar trick with a mains fed DC drive and DC motors in series/parallel according to their rating, but it'll probably actually be more expensive.

Running several induction motors of the same supply will give a measure of wheelslip protection to individual axles as well - if one motor start to accelerate relative to the others (and the supply), its slip frequency (the difference between supply frequency and motor speed) will decrease, which will drop the torque available, etc. etc.

As I said, I have made this work other than on railroad engines - pumping stations where there's no mains supply for example, various sampling rigs, but it may be more complex/expensive than you were looking for..

If you want any more advice from this armchair, email..

Jonathan

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 10:59:42 EDT
From: yrfavsob@aol.com

Subject: Re: Handicap car



Sept & Nov 1997 contain that article.

Dennis

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:25:16 EDT
From: Smallhand@aol.com

Subject: Re: Generator engine



Stan,
Contact Rudy Van Wingen, he's building an engine using this application.

Raymond Hill

Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:37:34 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



To anyone currently building the Fitchburg Northern locomotive (Tom Rhodes, Live Steam, 1988 - 1991), or contemplating building one:
We are trying to start an informal discussion group about this locomotive. It appears to have generated a good deal of interest with the increasing interest in NG live steam. The group would be simply an exchange of ideas and questions through e-mail. Hopefully we can interest the locomotives originator in the group as well as people currently building.

If you are interested, reply to this message and I will compile a list of e-mail addresses. I will then forward the list of addresses to each person who responds.
We can discuss FN matters on the 7-plus list or directly with each FN group member, so we don't clutter the list. What's your pleasure.
Don Bauer
Phoenix, AZ

Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 22:17:00 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Thanks Re:Handicap car



I would like to thank all those who replied to my request about a handicap car. You all covered bases that I had not thought of. The original thought of building the car came to me based on a discussion with a gentleman who wanted to bring his handicapped child to our club. He knew he'd love it but he'd want to have a ride.

Based on the input I can now see my idea sounded better than it could ever possibly be. The best point was what happens when the car derails. I shudder to think of a person in a wheelchair riding in a derailing car.

I can't pursue the matter but I think we can accommodate a handicapped person on one of our stand cars. Yes, it will take some time getting them on board and they will require complete supervision by someone capable of assisting if the car derails. We have a very nice "potty" siding that could be used for such a boarding if the need arises.

Thanks again for all the help.

Stan

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:04:12 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



Count me in.
Bill

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:50:52 -0400
From: Russell G Steeves

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



I have already built one. Its currently in its seventh running season.
Does that count? I am interested in your list.

FN#5, Russ

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 08:56:16 -0400
From: Robert Herronen

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Arno,

Do you think we can ask Keith to host a 7+NG list on the same server as the livesteamers? I have been tempted to get out of that list.

-Rob

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 09:30:14 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Rob,
of course we could ask Keith but I think we would be pushing our luck a little.

What he is doing is a labour of love and sooner or later there will be a burn out situation when he will want to return to "civilian" life. If he were to add the 7+ burden, that time would come sooner so we better leave it as it is.

We all enjoy the Ron Stewart's http://www.livesteaming.com but do we tell him often enough how much we appreciate that or, for that matter do we tell Dan Andrews that we appreciate his taking over the advert section there.

Don't forget, Stan Zdonick is setting up http://www.largetrains.com

Personally, I would prefer to have it all back on Keith's list. Bandwidth is no problem with we North Americans and it is easy to hit the button if the subject or first sentence does not capture your interest.
Arno

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 10:05:24 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Let's talk trains!



As long as there is good content here I will remain on egroups. Where ever this group moves to I will follow since I enjoy what is posted here.

The internet is content driven and users will continue to follow content. Egroups has a unique solution to people who need to share information. Until we have a complete alternative I think we're stuck here. The complete package with email, files, and web access is not available elsewhere.

Unless someone can provide a complete alternative I would suggest we drop this topic for a while and get back to trains. I have already run through this in another list. We lost a few members but we're still stuck at egroups. I will continue to try to get my site up to this standard but I won't mention it again until it is comparable.

Stan

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:15:16 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Reminder - LALS-meeting, Griffth Park Los Angeles



Cam -

Hubert & Christa have departed for Phoenix, AZ and Durango, CO. as of today, Tuesday Sept. 5th. They will return to LA on or about Wednesday Sept. 13th and plan to come by the house to pick up some excess baggage they left for safekeeping. I believe their flight to DE leaves the following AM.

Anyone wanting to send stuff for them should send it c/o Como Roundhouse Products, 2275 Huntington Drive, PMB279, San Marino, CA 91108-2658.

Email to ; telephone/FAX 626-792-2639.

Had a wonderful "ramble" from TMRR to LALS.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 18:27:38 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Quentin:

I am replying for Hubert since he and Christa will not be back in DE until late next week; they are still touring and have no internet access. The messages you are seeing from Hubert were all posted before he left and are being sent automatically .

We had a wonderful time at TMRR and again wish to thank you for your hospitality and a fabulous meet. Your announcement of the 2003 meet has given us all a goal to work toward and we fully expect to have 2.5" scale Moguls #10 and #13 there; with luck we will also have 4 to 6 D&RGW 2.5" scale/3' gauge C-16 and C-19 Consolidations there also.

Apparently you have overlooked the "digest" option of reviewing postings. Using this option avoids all the folderol of logging in and seeing ads, selecting postings of interest, etc. I suggest you give the digest option a try and see if it does not suit your needs better; I find it very handy as it allows me to be right on top of subjects of interest without having to wade through all the other messages of no interest.

I took over 200 digital photos of the meet and will be posting some to the site in a week or so; I hope you are still monitoring 7+NGM then....

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 13:05:33 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Rudy:

How do I use the digest version?

Quentin

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:04:06 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Digest Version



Go to http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/7-plus-NGM?referer=1

Click on the button that says "Send a daily digest of messages (many e-mails in one message to lb@cdsnet.net"

Then click on the save changes button. You will then get only one email a day from the list. This email will not include any of the attachments sent to the group. You will only see one ad a day. If you want to see the attachments you can go to http://www.egroups.com/messages/7-plus-NGM and look at the messages there.

Stan

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:42:31 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



Don,

I currently have only the prints for the Fitchburg Northern and I have seriously thought about building it. Right now, loco building is on hold as I am getting ready to lay track of my own in the yard. I would however, like to join your Fitchburg Northern group to exchange ideas for this wonderful little "lokey"

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:11:32 +0934
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements



Quentin:

I believe for several dollars a month an egroups moderator can pay to have those banners removed. Having two related communities, I have opted not to pay this fee at this time. I agree that they are incredibly annoying. I read 90% of my mail via pocket PDA and all I see is that D*%m banner! I wish there way a way to get rid of it easily without the moderator coughing up cash. Perhaps switching services would be apossible answer, but would they really be any better? And would losing members because of a move (which would happen, I moved a community fron YAHOO to E-Groups and lost 90% of my members . . . it is just now back up to where it was.

Just my two cents worths.

Curtis
Hustace Short Lines Railway

p.s. Since egroups has been bought by Yahoo. . .Yahoo now has the "E-Mail" function as well, they did not have this before . . . as far as advertisement goes I'm not sure how Yahoo is treating this subject.

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:57:59 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: RGSR 15 annual



Gail, Does your R.R. have a web site? have a good time and some time I want to come out and see you. Will have to see what develops next year.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 23:45:23 EDT
From: yrfavsob@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



Don,

I'm contemplating a version of the FN 34 and would be interested.

Dennis O'Berry

Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 22:08:14
From: Ian McKinley

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



Don, Please add me to your list.

Ian

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:26:10 -0500
From: "Ron Koehler"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



Several years ago, I started construction of a Fitchburg Northern. Please tell me what list you are talking about.

Ron

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:27:59 -0500
From: "Ron Koehler"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern No. 34



Please tell me more about the fitchburg northern group. I started construction a number of years ago but haven't finished it yet.

Ron Rhodes

Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 14:33:04 -0500
From: "Ron Koehler"

Subject: Re: RGSR 15 annual



RGSR 15 annualI inserted the information about Gails meet. He does not have a web site (neither do I) and he does not have e-mail. I can provide additional info if desired. His track is very nice with some sections bi-directional which makes for interesting running.

Ron Koehler

Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 03:54:55 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Re: Offensive Advertisements/Digest Version



Quentin -

Stan Zodnik has answered you as well or better than I would in message #743; hope that works better for you.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 03:59:38 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Fitchberg Norhtern parts...



For those of you contemplating building a F.N. version of the Chloe, or any other version for that matter: Como Roundhouse Products has a number of accessories available to dress it up or ease your work.

We have steam chest covers in circle or diamond pattern, a spectacle plate, and a round wrap over boiler saddle tank kit, just to mention a few.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 20:52:57 -0000
From: "Curtis Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Fitchberg Norhtern parts...& E-mail list.



Don,

Please, add my name to that FN list as well. I'm not building one, but do have the plans and would like to hear about any modification the participants use or have used. I hopefully I'll also beable to bring some information to the group as well.

Thank you,
Curtis F.

---------------------------

Rudy,

Wanted to take a moment to thank you for the steam gauges you left in Berry's hands up at Train Mountian. Beautiful work. One is now in my "stash" drawer awating my 4-4-0 to be completed.

Thanks,
Curtis F.

P.S. How $$ much is your current price list, I need cast washers for some cars.

Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 17:11:42 -0400
From: "Rich D."

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchberg Norhtern E-mail list?



Could some one please advise on the FN list url.
Is it also at Egroups?

Rich

Date: 8 Sep 2000 05:02:05 -0000
From: 7-plus-NGM@egroups.com

Subject: Reminder - Rio Grande Scenic Railroad 15th annual m...



We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.

Rio Grande Scenic Railroad 15th annual meet

Date: Friday, September 15, 2000
Time: All Day

Annual Meet hosted by Gail O. Gish. Sept 15 thru 17

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:52:11 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



So far 14 people have expressed interest in the Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group. Also, the majority of responders have said we should stay on the 7-plus-NGM with our discussions for the interest of others and for the input from people not particularly interested in this locomotive, but with expertise we could benefit from.

If anyone else on the 7-plus begins to think we are taking up too much space, we can find an alternate venue.

This message is going to the discussion group and to the larger 7-plus group. Future messages from any FN group members should be to "7-plus-NGM@egroups.com". Just be sure to use "FN Discussion Group" on the subject line. Photos can also be posted through this group.

I will send the list of e-mail addresses, names and locations to each FN member as soon as it is finished.

Following is a reprint of several earlier messages to the group, in case anyone missed them:
from "Steamin 10"
I see tom rhodes on the mail list......I would like to start a 'building cell' of say 5 or 6 participants, and start making standard parts....It is so much easier to make 5 sets of say side-rods to a standard than just a pair, if every one could just do a set fo this and that and pass the xtras to the group, wouldn't that cut down on the individual time? Admittedly my machine skills are on the low end, but I have a Large home shop with three lathes, two mills, cutoff saw and casting furnaces, that make some people gape,,,The support stuff like 48" brake and 50 ton press and smaller presses are too numerous to mention, But all I lack is the support to take off...I have an enormous amount of Ideas for things to do...I want to research the possibility of making the boilers, but I need guidance in the legal department....So I don't stub my toe....Dave..

from "russsteeves@juno.com"
I have already built one. Its currently in its seventh running season. Does that count?

from "Ken@omgcenter.org"
I am just beginning a hybrid between the FN 34 and the Allen Models Chloe 0-4-2T, namely a 0-4-0 tender engine based on the Chloe castings and prints, and the FN tender. I also have Gene Allen's reprint of the FN article. This is my first engine, and I'm also a newbie machinist. I actually intend to build a flatcar first to build some skills. Your group sounds interesting to me, so if you don't mind someone who's not building exactly the same engine, count me in.

from "Tom_Rhodes@plugpower.com"
My experience with soft coal and hard coal is the same as Russ's. I'm not sure if my firebox is the slightly wider version or not. I have a RR Supply mogul fire door, which is a little smaller than the one Russ has. Bigger is better. I misplaced my flue brush this summer, and after several runs on hard coal, If you shone a light through the tubes, they were bare shiny metal. It did install new grates, 1/4 x 3/4 stainless, 1/4" spacing, which improved steaming with hard coal. The originals were 3/16, 3/16 spacing. My safeties are also set at 120 for the same reason Russ gave.

I believe I mentioned to a couple of people that I now have two "Chloe" water pumps, one on each side, which I found I needed on the long grades at ALS. I also replaced the internal ball checks with 5/16" external Superscale checks, which made all the difference in the world. The pumps used to pound with the feed bypass at higher speeds. No pounding at all with the new checks.

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:00:23 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Just a few more messages from the FN 3 day old archive.

from "russsteeves@juno.com
I can't say enough good about Tom Rhodes and Gene Allen for their contributions to the original design. When I was building mine back in '91-'93 I had asked Tom what he would change if he did it again. He was quite satisfied as he should have been and had very few changes to suggest. Of course being an engineer I had to change SOMETHING. But now if you ask me what I would change if I were to build it again I would say almost nothing.

Marty Knox who built both of our boilers suggested a wider fire box (4" to 4.5") to me. This permitted the use the larger Allen mogul fire door and a modest 12.5% increase in grate area. When I first fired the engine on soft coal the 1/2" tubes would plug up in less than 3 hours. Since then I have fired it with anthracite pea coal. There is NO build up in the tubes and the engine will run indefinitely. I think the wider firebox helps in the burning of hard coal. My engine is a terrific steamer where the pressure actually builds under heavy continuous loads.

The Fitchburg Northern is a well balanced engine with cylinder Dia. well matched to the engine weight. (unlike Chloe) However, my safeties are set at 120 psi. to provide a little more driver torque. Increasing the bore from 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" might be good but I think John Pilling (also on this list) may tell you there isn't much room in the Allen castings to do this.

from "Mikado8@aol.com"
There are 8 of us in the western NY area that are building the FN locos. All of us are members of the Tonawanda Creek Model Engineers Live Steam club. All are basic machinists and seem to work well together. Our frames are finished, drivers, journal boxes, axles, saddles, some valve gear parts and misc other parts have been completed in less than a year. We have the boiler tubes cut to size and are ready for welding. I imagine we will hit some road blocks down the line but so far we are doing quite well. One of our members is even making all the cabs. Lets keep in touch and I know we can help each other till the locos are completed.

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:16:53 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Please register another vote for keeping this FN exchange of information on the 7+ list. Although not building a FN at the time, I am interested in the locomotive and the discussion.

On the subject of "group built" locomotives, this has been talked about on the Livesteamers list in the past. There are several pros and cons on the subject. I have forgotten most of the names of those involved but one of them was John Grant on the Livesteamers list who was involved in such a project with the West Valley Live Steamers near San Francisco. John would probably have some good input.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 09:32:19 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group




At home here I have a Allen Models Chloe in the box that I have contemplated turning into the FN. So I am very interested in the topic. Since the FN is built on the same basic parts as the Chloe I don't think that it would be too much of a stretch to build the FN instead. I really want a bigger engine than the Chloe anyway . . . .

Curtis

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:47:56 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Just back from Friday portion of ALS Fall Meet. FN 34 stayed in the square engine house (club policy to let our quests run on the track) - Russ Steeves and #5 her with admirable performance. Great idea to have this group and have it an open forum for what makes a paerticaular design tick and how to improve it.

No little interest in NG with yours truly ferreting it out. D&RDW #50 her and the only nit pick was "Why doesn't someone letter this to the Sumpter Valley.

Suggested entrance bar for this new sub-group: Each member must instantly locate Fitchburg from memory. No fair refering to atlases or life lines.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:48:12 EDT

From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group

In response to Curtis comments, I agree that it is not much of a stretch, going from Chloe to FN. You will build a different frame, and a few of the parts aren't used, or substitute others, plus a few more parts. Get the FN prints and reprint of the article in Live Steam that goes with them and you will see it all clearly.

I started building with the tender frame, making mine from steel channel with wood end beams. It is time to put trucks under it, and I wonder what Arch Bar trucks are the best. I'm leaning toward Mountain Car Co.
Don Bauer

Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 20:55:25 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Last time I looked, Fitchburg was in Massachusets

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:14:13 -0500
From: "Ron Koehler"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



As far as tender trucks for the fitchburg northern are concerned, I used Railroad Supply arch bar with spoked wheels. These complement the locomotive nicely.

Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 01:51:53 -0300
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Two more of us who were involved in that discussion were me and Joe Tansky.

From what I remember of the discussion, there are a lot more CONs than there are PROs.

don orr
1-1/2" and 2-1/2" scale steam accessories, gas burners and tenders

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 06:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Dobrowolski

Subject: Adirondack Fall Meet - WOW!!



I would just like to thank everyone at the Adirondack Live Steamers for the wonderful time at their Fall Meet. I was only able to make it on Saturday. My son and I got there around 10:30am and had a great time. The track is fantastic. I'm sure I'll be a regular visitor at their meets. All the ALS members we met were very friendly and helpful.

Thanks once again and keep up the good work!!!

Bob Dobrowolski
Highland Lakes, NJ
NJLS, SVLS

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:21:54 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Adirondack Live Steamers Fall Meet



Just a note of thanks to all the members of your fine club. This, by far is the finest meet I have ever attended. I for one had the time of my life and enjoyed meeting old friends and making new ones as well. I must give a special thanks to Frank P. for his help on fine tuning my engine. With the restrictor in the stack removed the engine ran like a charm. I'll be back in the spring, thats for sure.
Bill Cochrane
Beaver Creek Railway 713
Member Tonawanda Creek Model Engineers
Amherst NY

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 13:14:57 -0400
From: Frank Pierson

Subject: Re: Adirondack Live Steamers Fall Meet



Bill, you are welcome and thank you for coming. We ALL had a great time.

Frank

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:56:55 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Fwd: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:50:19 EDT
From: Steamin10@a...
To: DBauer2250@a...
Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group

Ok, I get the message....A little about me... I am a died in the wool armchair doer...tryin to get motivated...(HaH) ..I am in NW Indiana, Near Griffith. I have 4.5 acres and three houses, a too small garage and lots of plans...I own a SB 15 inch flat belt, a 9 inch bench top, rear drive, and a more modern nine inch school type cabinet lathe...I also have three crucibal furnaces, many flasks, and not enough patterns to work. I am planning an iron furnace this spring...I haved just motorized the table on a 24 x 8 mill and have an older enco mill drill , and various presses, saws, welders, and support equipment. I just Aquired a Clishay frame that has been sitting around for a while and am disappointed in it. The mechanics are too hokey...Although a 'new' engine for this thing was just published last month.......Ok I have two frames startedand still nothing to run.. no matter...Age 48 and semi retired Millwright...Kids are grown... now gonna build some things afore I die... Name and addy.. David Breit ...4123 w45th Ave...Gary IN....phone 219-980 -2380 Nothing to see really but visitors welcome with notice....E'mail always answered....Love to talk trains machines and engines....Dave B...I sign on the Chaski boards as Dave B .....(also)

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:11:43 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Hi Gang:
As I am about to start on the frame of my FN, I want comments on the point that John Pilling made earlier about milling the slots for the pedistals only 1/16 deep instead of 1/8 as called for in the prints. I think it is a good idea, and have also considered silver soldering the pedistals to the upper frame member. Thoughts?

The other thing I want to know about is sources for material. Example, Allen Models has the frame material ( bar stock, castings etc). Can money be saved by purchasing bar stock from mail order steel suppliers, or is it more costly? And are these places good for items that are hard to find like larger diameter brass and steel?
Don Bauer

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:59:23 -0400
From: John Pilling

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Hi All,

In response to your requests, when I built my frames, I used cold rolled steel rather than hot rolled because the former was closer(usually) dimensionally to the nominal size and had a better surface finish. On the down side, the c.r. steel will require more straightening after you cut through the stress skin when the pedestal slots are milled. I'll put up with that for the positives. As far as silver soldering on the frame, I would think twice about doing so as more distortion may be introduced. Also, by bolting the parts together it allows for assembly and disassembly the several times you'll go through the routine of fitting and adding holes you may have forgotten. The use of Loctite on the upper bolts holding the pedestals in place will make for a solid frame. Try to hold a zero clearance(size to size) when fitting these parts to both the top and bottom rails.
I've purchased my material from a small local steel supplier and companies such as MSC and McMaster-Carr, the latter two being mail order. The advantage of dealing with the last two is the ability to buy some materials, such as bearing bronze, in short lengths thereby making for lower material costs. There are other suppliers that advertise in Live Steam although I haven't used them yet.
Hope these comments help.
Regards,
John Pilling

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:11:24 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: JT&S RR Club & Museum Web Site



The JT&S RR Museum and Club has a new Webmaster, Chris Allan, and he has (and is continuing to) upgrade our Web Site. It is much improved and certainly more current; I urge you to check it out at http://www.jtsrr.org.

The Club is holding our annual Fall Meet the weekend on November 10 - 13 and it should be one of our best yet. A great number of changes have taken place at JT&S and there will be a lot to see, along with lots of N.G. action. There will be at least 4 N.G. locomotives there in operation including C&S #10 which is being brought down from the Bay Area by her current owner.

Be sure to mark your calendar, make reservations, and come play trains (N.G.) with us!

Rudy van Wingen
Vice President

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 12:37:36 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Don Bauer wrote... "Can money be saved by purchasing bar stock from mail order steel suppliers..."

Consider places like www.metalmart.com for steel and other materials, for short pieces you will save considerable money, and they have every size imaginable in stock... If you can buy entire lengths you can save even more money and may be able to get it locally... but lengths are typically 20 ft. Some suppliers may have short ends or be willing to cut it for you. You'll need to make some calls.

I agree with the other gent, using cold rolled (C1018) will make a nicer looking frame and the dimensions are quite close. On the other hand C1018 is not as machineable as A36. It's a bit tougher to get a really nice finish, leaded steel like 12L14 is easier to work with, but not available in as many sizes.

I used C1018 for a Little Engines Atlantic and was very pleased, even hogged out a number of components where I felt the use of castings was required, save a lot of money.

On my frame for 3 3/4" scale SR&RL #24 I had A36 hot rolled water jet cut, stress relieved, and Blanchard ground... If I was doing the Little Engines Atlantic again I would redesign the frame and go this route. Not familiar enough with the FN loco to know if that is possible, but having the pedestals, etc an integral part of the frame is desirable.

Linc Reed-Nickerson

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 16:19:54 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: RE: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



I have succesfully used 1018 plate to make a few locomotive frames. I have a CNC mill to machine the frames and I rough out the profile of the frame and stay about .060" full. I make sure I machine the entire outer profile to release any stresses that are in the surface of the steel. I release the clamps on the frame, then retighten and mill to finish. This allows the 1018 steel to move where it needs and provides a very accurate frame. In looking at my plans for the Fitchburg Northern, I would cut the frame from 1/2" plate stock and beef it up in a couple of areas. Especially where that notch for the rocker arm bearing is.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:56:17 -0400
From: John Pilling

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Hi Bruce,
You mentioned using plate with the area around the cut-out being beefed up. I simply drilled a hole larger than the shaft that passes through this area maintaining the integrity of the 1/2" bar stock at this point. Holding critical dimensions closely will give you a solid frame without a great deal of effort. I have five frames going together and so far no problems.
If you check around, much of the smaller sizes of bar stock, both square and round, can be purchased in twelve(12) foot lengths.
John Pilling

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:14:54 -0000
From: "Ronald Knepp"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Hi Listers,

Rogers-Cooke Locomotive Works has flame cut frames available for the F.N. engine. The ad in Live Steam May/June 2000 says that you save 28 pieces and 36 screws. I saw the frames at the Cabin Fever Meet in Jan. and the owner of the company said that they are available as come fromthe machine or with finished axle box slots and binders.

A catalog is available for $5.00.

Rodgers-Cooke Locomotive Works
Box 138
Parsippany NJ
07054


Ron Knepp

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:24:54 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Back home



Hello all,

sorry for my delay, but I'm still working through all the emails, I received during the past four weeks.

We arrived safely home on last friday afternoon, and it was a great trip.

I wish to thank all, who made this wonderful time available.

Absolute impressing for me was Train Mountain, and with the announcement for another such event in 2003, I changed my plans. I hope, that I'll be able to return 2003 to Train Mountain, perhaps with my own locomotive.

Thank you very much

Hubert

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:39:00 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Fellow FN'rs
I don't like to give a bad report on items available for the hobby but, in the effort to make the newbe aware, I would be a little careful with these flame cut frames. I saw a set at the IBLS2000 East meet and upon close examination, saw they need a lot of straightening before use. A quick look along the top frame rail, one can easily see a good amount of bow and bend. A good amount of muscle and machine work is still required on the flame cut frames to get them into a reasonable item to use for a loco frame. Remember, the frame is the foundation of everything else on the locomotive. If you skimp on accuracy here, everything down the line is going to be compromised.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:19:37 -0400
From: "Denis Larrick"

Subject: c-16 minus two



I am building a 2.5" scale C-16 2-8-0 shortened to a 2-6-0 (I couldn't decide between a South Park Mogul or a C-16... I like them both, plus I've [grunt] helped load a couple of C-19's !! ). Most parts were laser cut. I did the AutoCAD drawings myself off of a set of 1881 prints from Truson Buegel and then a very generous person let me learn to program the laser cutter from them. Got 200 parts made for the price of the scrap metal !! Also used Microsoft Excel to run the calculations from Modern Locomotive Construction 1892. I am using a Briggs boiler which is built to the combined Australian, Maynard/Watts, Michigan, and Maryland codes (took the strongest condition of all of them). Will run with wood domes and plywood tender, headlight, and cab for a couple of years until I have time to finish the engine (I'm not proud... I just want to run, and I cranked out the tender in two weeks !! ). Using Rogers-Cooke C-19 wheels and cylinders. Expect to steam unfinished chassis with plywood superstructure next summer.
Anyone else out there doing a similar project?

Denis M. Larrick, Manager of Design
kbd/TECHNIC Industrial Ventilation Engineering
A Division of CECO Environmental
3131 Disney Street
Cincinnati, Ohio 45209
(513) 351-6200 ext. 112
(FAX) 351-4071
dlarrick@kbd-technic.com

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:28:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: drgw50tc@webtv.net

Subject: stock for locos



Hi fellas, I see a bunch of us are looking for various types of steel stock for the FN's. Justa suggestion. This seems to work well for me. Find your local supplier for steel. I started with the yellow pages. Take a trip to the place with some pictures of locos pulling people. Now try to find the door to the shop floor, NOT the front office. Put your best stupid face and curtious smile on . Ussually by now someone on the floor will approach you with "can I help you?" Show them your photos and explain to them what your doing and that your wondering if he has any scraps or left over pieces for sale. The place I go to lets me go through all the scrap and cut off barrels. after a few in frequent visits and maybe an invite to the track with his family you would be surprised just how accomadateing this guy was . He helped me out with obtaining the better kind of steel for the application I had. I usually offer 5 or 10 bucks or if it's couple of 100 lbs I'll say what do I owe ya. Never spented more than 15 bucks a visit. Remember, don't be a pest or stop by every other day and bug him and you should make out pretty good. Now a days I'll stop by wth my "wish list" in the AM ,Paul says come by some time after lunch. I respond with OK see ya later. Came back about 1:30 there was a neet little pile all cut to the sizes asked for. Anyway just a suggestion guys. Hope you have as good as luck that I had .
Good hunting, take care
TC

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:42:02 -0700
From: "Quentin Breen"

Subject: Re: Back home



Hubert:

Glad you had a good trip. The dates for the Train Mountain Triennial are June 21 to 29, 2003--a whole week of train madness.

Quentin

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:30:08 EDT
From: nashnash@aol.com

Subject: Re: c-16 minus two



I am building a 2-6-0, 2 1/2" scale from WATCO, now Roll Models. I have a briggs boiler and will fire on propane. Will use vacuum brakes on the engine and tender.
I am piping up the engine and tender.

John Nicholson

Golden Gate Live Steamers

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:12:08 -0300
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Having used frames from Roger's-cooke, I must report that my finding has been the xact opposite of the finding reported here. Were the frames you saw blanchard-ground after being flame cut? generally, Bob Holder's frames, after the grinding, are right on, dimensionally, and straight as the proverbial arrow.

Don Orr
1-1/2" and 2-1/2" scale steam accessories, gas burners and tenders

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:06:16 -0400
From: "Buesing, Don"

Subject: RE: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



I have a set of the Roger's-Cook frames in my Allen 4-6-0. Bob also machined the journals for me too.
Everything was just fine.

In my situation I found this the way to go after I had to scrap the built up frames fabricated per the drawings due to errors on my part. This is not to say the Allen drawings are at fault, far from it. When I decided to build my first engine I did not have a shop, machinery or the talent/training to properly jump right into it as others may. I had to learn along the way, the frames were my first task and my first mistake.

I've been reading about some who would like to build their $15,000 engine with 10 cent materials. If there is one place you need to have it right to get off on a good start, it's the frames. Another place is the side rods. If your an amature machinist like me, make sure your rod's pin holes are done on the same machine as the frames. If the centers of the journals and drivers are off a bit relative to each other, you will need to build in some journal slop in order to counter the differences that will come and go with each revolution of the rods on the quartered drivers. If you don't have it right, the rod bushings will machine themselves to a greater clearance with use. Rod clank is the result.

I save all my scrap parts in a box as reminders for my future projects. Thought I'd tell you what's in it hoping it might help somebody.

Don

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:11:02 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group



Don, Bob had a coupple of different frames at the Waushakum Meet. One set was blanchard ground and I know for a fact the FN frames were not. I looked along the top straight edge of the frames and there was a noticable 1/8" bow along this edge. The frames that were ground also would not rest flatwise against each other although this was not a big deal as a little bending across the knee would fix that. It was the fact that the top edge of the frame was not straight that bothered me.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 04:44:11 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Fitchburg Northern Parts



For photos and part numbers of Fitchburg Northern/Chloe parts available from Como Roundhouse Products, got to http://www.egroups.com/files/7-plus-NGM/Fitchburg+Northern

We will be adding to this file in the next few days, so come back in a week or so for another look. Items to be added are Pressure Gauge, Pilot Beam Flag/Lamp Stanchions, Angle Cocks/Glad Hands, Tender Outside Hung Brakes, and a several other parts that have yet to be photographed.

If you are interested in more information on these parts, Email dmmcomo@socal.rr.com with the part number (s) and we will give you price, material, dimensions and availability. The photos are of the patterns except for the steam chest covers; we do not carry a big inventory but we can get castings made in a couple of weeks.

For those of you who would like an alternate source for frames, we can furnish water cut blanchard ground frames that will require virtually no machining. If there is enough interest, we can also furnish expansion links machined, hardened and teflon/graphite coated that will last forever.

Rudy van Wingen

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:07:31 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames - FYI



Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:32:55 -0500
From: "Ron Koehler"
To:
Subject: fitchburg frames

Hi,

could you give me an idea of the cost for the fitchburg northern frames that you offer? I have no objection to your posting my inquiry to stir up additional interest.

Thanks,

Ron Koehler

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 2:01 PM
From: Rudolph P. van Wingen
To: Ron Koehler
Cc: Hubert (Goose) Wetekamp
Subject: Re: fitchburg frames

Ron -

I have not yet priced them. I threw that out as a suggestion based on the problems some of the fellows were talking about. Do you have a copy of the frame drawing or know where I can get one? I will price a run of frames and post it on the 7+NGM to see how many other responses I get, since a "one off" would probably be pretty costly when you consider the programming/setup cost for the water jet cutter.

The beauty of water jet cutting is it is stress free, so there is no bending or warping.

Would you object to my posting a copy of your inquiry and my response to the 7+NGM; that might get others interested to respond sooner?

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 07:52:25 -0500
From: Mike Boucher

Subject: Blanchard ground?



Hi folks,

OK, I've seen this term mentioned a few times on the discussion about Fitchburg Northern frames, but I confess I still haven't figured out exactly what it means...

What the heck do you mean when you say "Blanchard Ground" frames? BTW - "ground" is not the word I don't understand...

c'ya
Mike

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 09:51:59 EDT
From: Mt14l@aol.com

Subject: Re: Blanchard ground?



Mike;
Blanchard ground is a process to grind both sides of a steel plate exactly parallel. The plate is place on a turntable and rotated and a rotating grinding head is then rotated above it until it is flat. The plate is flipped over with the freshly ground side flat on the turntable and the second face is ground parallel with the first. Hope this answers your question.
Dave Sherron

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:37:24 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Blanchard ground?



Mike,
The term "Blanchard" was taken from the Blanchard Machine Works. This company produced rotary grinding machines as well as some others. The beauty of these machines is that induced warpage is minimised by using a cup shaped wheel with cutting edges on the face instead of on the edge of the wheel. This provides cutting action in two directions instead of one as found on regular surface grinders which is what causes the warpage factor.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:13:03 EDT
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Blanchard ground?



The word "Blanchard" is the name of a make of a vertical roatary surface grinder. Most all work done on this type of machine is called Blanchard Ground even though it may be done on a Mattson or some other make machine.The process would be as if you placed a round plate in front of you (the chuck which would rotate counter clockwise} Lay a piece of paper on top of it (the work) and take a upside down coffee cup rotating clock wise above the paper and you have how the machine looks.They are metal eating machines I own 5 of them the largest having a 96 diameter chuck witha 150 hp spindle motor Machine size is given as the size of chuck diameter not how much the machine will swing
Ray

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:35:03 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Blanchard ground?



Bruce, can you explain this 'induced warpage' and 'warpage factor' a little.

I know about surface grinders consistently grinding within 0.0002" or better over the whole chuck area. I also know about plates being ground to that parallelism and when assembled for injection moulds leaving no flash but warpage factor is totally new to me.
Arno

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:59:44 -0700
From: Jerry Kimberlin

Subject: Re: Blanchard ground?



Don't know about warpage factor, but any time you cut into metal that has not been stress relieved by heating then slow cooling, there is stress which will cause distortion when the metal is cut. Cold rolled steel is the worst. Hot rolled steel has some stress but not as much. So what one wants to do is to "stress relieve" steel before cutting to minimize warpage, or distortion of flatness. Blanchard grinding will make surfaces flat and take off "mill scale" due to hot rolling and subsequent oxidation during cooling.

JerryK

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:44:31 EDT
From: Thime@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



Rudy,

What do you need for the Water Jet machine? A simple DXF file?

I could draft one up for this group in very short order (an hour or so.) I have my own copy of the prints and a rather powerful CAD system at my disposal. Perhaps I could make the DXF, then upload it to the files area for anyone to use, or make suggestions for modifications on?

As to Blanchard grinding, I do question as to wither or not it's a necessary step. A good friend of mine is finishing up an Allen 4-6-0 which has a laser cut frame of 1/2" CRS. He had the shop that cut it straighten it in a press brake, and didn't bother grinding at all. The chassis is running on air and rolls like a dream. The needed journal box play is fine and has had no binding problems in his testing. Any and all other bendings/warps in the frame succumed to the cross braces and cylinder saddle.

Curtis F.

P.S. How thick of material can the Water Jet handle?

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:04:48 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



Curtis:
If you would go ahead and reproduce the frame drawing, it would help Rudy and be a resource for the rest of us. I have both the Allen prints and the original drawings from Live Steam, but lack the means to put them into electronic format (and the knowledge).
Don Bauer

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:30:20 -0400
From: Frank Pierson

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



Gentlemen,
It is normal for steel to move as it is machined due to the internal stresses from cooling and rolling. Most machining takes this in to account during the planning phase of step planning. simple solution for the project on the frames is to machine the axle box keys, tapping's and closure bars first. These will hold the frames in shape through your machining process for the axle boxes and keep them parallel. Even with water jet cutting, one should make the box locks first to accommodate stress. Once cut, they bend easily to reinstall the bars and straighten the frame. I like a tapered key design for the lock up and accuracy.

Just my personal thoughts on the matter.

Frank

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:46:43 EDT
From: Thime@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



Don,

I'll do it this evening when I get home from work!

Curtis F.

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:59:55 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Blanchard ground?



Yes Jerry, I agree with all that.
This still leaves my original question about Bruce's "warpage factor" which you quote above.
Arno

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:58:05 -0400
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



As a reminder to all interested in the blaanchard ground frames:
Roger's-Cooke already makes blanchard ground frames for this engine. He also has them available machined with the frame spacers, etc, ready for your journal blocks. The frames I have seen are very nice.

Since I am not building this engine, I have no vested interest here, only to help spread knowledge on availability of items.

Don Orr 1-1/2" and 2-1/2" scale steam accessories, gas burners and tenders

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:15:47 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: Water Jet and Stress Relief



I had my frames for SR&RL #10 and #24 water jet cut... I have the dxf files if anyone wants them... I used hot rolled, which was stress relieved and Blanchard ground. Reason... These are 1" thick frames and heavy!

For a smaller locomotive with 3/4" Frames, say a Little Engines Atlantic (dfx file also available), or a plate frame locomotive like the Bunyip (construction article currently running in Australia Model Engineer, dxf file available) laser cut or water jet should allow the builder the opportunity to do the straightening and finish work himself. The SR&RL frames are just too darn big to try an work with in my shop.

30 years ago I built a Carl Purinton Mogul... had the frames flame cut and did the straightening and clean up by hand. It wasn't a very big job, I used hot rolled, and didn't have a lot of distortion.

On the other hand, I split a piece of 12L14 leaded steel for making a set of side rods... curled up pretty good, stress relieving was required to finish. Next time I'll consider using hot rolled, but the 12L14 is a dream to machine.

Does anyone have a table of temperatures recommended for stress relieving and a description of the best procedure to use... My methods are probably a bit crude and haphazard.

Linc

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:35:35 -0500
From: "Ron Koehler"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



What is the cost that Roger's-Cooke charges for the glanchard ground frames?

Ron Koehler

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:01:25 -0400
From: locopart

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Norhtern Frames / Blanchard Grinding



Ron

Since I am only the passer of the information, and have not bought these frames myself, I would rather you would get the straight gouge from Bob Holder himself. Please don't quote me but I THINK the completed frame assembly is in the range of $350...I THINK...Anyway, having built quite a few engines, I consider this cheap for this part of the construction.

Anyway, Bob Holder's telephone number is 973-887-0084. Tell him I sent you..again, I get nothing out of this other than Bob is a friend, and I like the quality of his work.

Don Orr
1-1/2" and 2-1/2" scale steam accessories, gas burners and tenders

Date: 26 Sep 2000 03:33:31 -0000
From: <7-plus-NGM@egroups.com>

Subject: New file uploaded to 7-plus-NGM



Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the 7-plus-NGM group.

File : /Fitchburg Northern DXF files/FN Main Frame.DXF
Uploaded by : Thime@aol.com
Description : DXF test file for water jet/lazer cutting a Fitchburg Northern Main Frame.

You can access this file at the URL

http://www.egroups.com/files/7-plus-NGM/Fitchburg+Northern+DXF+files/FN+Main+Frame%2EDXF

To learn more about eGroups file sharing, please visit

http://www.egroups.com/help/files.html

Regards,

Thime@aol.com

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:12:27 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Re: Blanchard ground?



Arno and Others,
Sorry for the delay in answering this message but I was down in Newark NJ yesterday, picking up continuous cast iron bar to make wheels for future riding cars.
What I meant by the "warpage factor" was, (from past experiance in my commercial machine shop) when ever I have material / parts surface ground, they never come back flat unless I specifically ask them to be flattened (extra cost). Even with my personal experiances with surface grinding, it is very difficult to get parts to be flat. Thickness is easy. Flatness is not. When I have parts blanchard ground, they come back from the grinder flat (no extra charge). (BTW, I use the same vendor for surface grinding AND blanchard grinding). Of course I asked the grinder why. The grinder told me that with the use of the blanchard grinder, as the part passes under the stone, the cutting action takes place in two angular (multi axis) directions with each pass. This reduces the induced linear stresses caused by the grinding and results in a flat workpiece. The surface grinder cuts only in the direction the table travels (one axis). This induces a linear stress causing the part to warp. It also makes no difference if the parts have been stress relieved. The grinding action will put stresses back into the work piece. Less with blanchard grinding more with surface grinding. I was told if you look at the ground surface under a powerfull microscope, each scratch the grit edge makes looks like a miniature valley chiseled into the work piece. Each valley (or ridge) has a small amount of stress within itself that is caused when the grit edge is pushed through the material being ground. With surface grinding, all of the valleys and ridges go in one direction, they all combine their force and pull on the part (at a molecular level). With blanchard grinding the valleys and ridges go in multiple directions, some cutting across other ridges and valley making them much shorter therefore reducing the amount of pull they have on the workpiece.
Another note: Usually with the higher wheel speeds of the surface grinder, more heat is generated with a surface grinder than with the blanchard grinder. This could also cause more warpage.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:28:28 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Profiling Fitchburg Northern Frames



FN'rs
Here is another way to make frames from CRS. When I make frames, I use my CNC mill. I program the machine to profile cut the entire frame including both inside profiles and outside profiles. With the use of a feature the machine has called "cutter diameter compensation", where I tell the machine the diameter of the cutter, I tell the machine the cutter is 1/8" larger than it actually is. This produces the frame profile with an added 1/16" of material on the profile all the way around. I cut the profile at this setting, release the clamps holding the frame in position on the machine table and allow the frame to move where it wants. If it moves more than 1/16" I hand bend it back into shape so that it is less than 1/16" out. I reclamp it to the machine table, reset the cutter compensation feature to the correct size for the cutter being used and recut the profile. Removing only 1/16" more does not cause the frame to move more than a few thousanths at the most. At this time I also drill, tap, ream and bore any cross holes that are included in the frame.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 08:35:07 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



I don't think this method will work. Perhaps uploading an actual drawing would be better OR directly emailing the file to the requesting individual. I have a cad-cam program that can use dxf files but not as regular text. I would need the file as your program reads the file.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:21:01 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



I went to the files area, downloaded the dxf file and it loaded into my CAD program just fine. I use IntelliCAD 2000, it's free and pretty darned good to boot.

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:39:29 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



Help.

When I clicked on the file below I'm just opening a TXT file in Wordpad. I even went to the files section, the dxf folder but was not able to get that .DXF file into my IntelliCAD2000.

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 10:46:43 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



You need to go to the files area and right-click the link. Tell your browser to save it to a file. After that, it loads fine. My browser wasn't smart enough to load it either.

If anyone can't load it using the instructions above, send me an email. I will forward a copy to you via email.

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:15:01 EDT
From: Thime@aol.com

Subject: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



Gentelmen,

Keep in mind this is a "test" file. Consider it submitted for revisions. :)

One point of interest, I left off the frame piece that acts as the front cylinder casting captive. I'm not sure if the cylinder castings length is controlled enough for a one-size-fits-all cylinder seat. Your thoughts?

Again, there is no machining allowance in the file.

Should all the holes be shown as well?

FYI, the "modified" frame reflects some 1900s Baldwin standard practices in frame design.

Thank you,
Curtis F.

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:41:45 -0400
From: "Bruce"

Subject: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



OK,
It automatically used my free version of Turbocad to open the dxf file. I would have liked to put in into my Virtual Gibbs cad-cam program but it seems to be non-compatable with that program.

Bruce Mowbray (president)
TMB Manufacturing And Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 12:11:00 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



I would add the cylinder casting section with a note as to its parameters. That way we could change it to fit whatever we used.

Hole locations would be a plus as well. They could be removed if the file were sent to be cut commercially.

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:33:21 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



Thanks Stan,

I never thought of using "Save Link as ..."
'Though when you think about it, on that page where the file name shows, underlined, it IS really only a link.
Arno

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:29:14 -0400
From: John Pilling

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



Hi Curtis,

The vertical piece that restrains the cylinder in the frame might best be a separate part machined for zero clearance so it will eliminate all fore and aft movement of the cylinders while under steam. When the front frame extension is bolted in place it makes for a very solid assembly in an area that sees most of the forces applied to the frame. By machining the cylinder "clamps" to fit the individual cylinder thickness it creates a mass of material better able to handle these forces.

Best regards,

John Pilling

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:06:52 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



Hi Folks:

On full size locomotives, the cylinder seat is machined wider than the cylinder block, to allow for manufacturing errors. The rear of the notch is square, to provide a positive shoulder to locate the cylinder. The front of the notch is fitted with keys, which are driven in at assembly to provide the necessary tight fit of the cylinder block in the frame. A separate piece, custom fitted to each side, would serve the same purpose on the small loco.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 04:55:18 -0000
From: "Rudolph (Rudy) van Wingen"

Subject: Neat video idea...



Guys -

What do you think about using one of these (#1) with battery pack for mounting:

On the pilot beam?
In the cab?
In the caboose cupola?

I saw it done on one of the Daylight (12" = 1') runs and it was very effective, but out of reach $$ wise for the average Live Steamer back then.

Let's hear your feedback!

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 19:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: eLert
To: dmmcomo@SOCAL.RR.COM
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Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 00:05:29 -0500
From: "Mudhen"

Subject: Re: Neat video idea...



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Camp Creek Railroaders
Omaha, NE

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 02:29:27 EDT
From: Thime@aol.com

Subject: New Fitchburg Northern frame DXF file



Put an updated DXF into the files area.

Also put in some fullsize examples of frames.

Cheers,
Curtis F.

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 17:58:59 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Neat video idea...



I see only one drawback to the camera . . . a 100' transmitting distance. If you had a recording device on the train somewhere it wouldn't be too bad. The price is right. If the transmitters where stronger you could put up a monitor or two and people could watch trains out on the railroad from the comfort of the station (perhaps a transmitting relay?). Otherwise you could mount a small cam corder and achieve the same effect . . . or could you?

Curtis

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:35:03 -0700
From: Jerry Kimberlin

Subject: Re: Neat video idea...



I'm way out of my league in commenting here but I think small cameras and transmitters that will go 2500' or more to a recorder are available for around $1000. I looked into this a year ago from an interest in recording an antique motorcycle group ride through the SWest USA and having the recorder in the chase car. That situation was different but the equipment was about the same. In the case of railroads in miniature on our small/short tracks, lipstick cameras feeding small transmitters could well be able to record to video recorders that were stationary at some central point, or on the train itself as all this stuff is battery powered. Another example is shown on racing cars on TV and these seem to come out OK. Not sure what quality is required and the finer the detail, the more the expense. But all this stuff is coming down in price.

JerryK

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:21:09 -0500
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Neat video idea...



I worked on a television remote crew and we used a beta cam outfitted with a microwave transmitter. We could walk just about anywhere and still be able to transmitt back to the truck. A Microwave outfit is VERY expensive and is cost prohibitive to the average Joe. Transmitting distance is also variable due to surroundings, how many trees are there, Hills, and the structure that is receiving the signal may interfere with the picture.

Curtis

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 16:59:19 -0000
From: "Stan Rutledge"

Subject: Off Subject / Train related



I'm back to the Egroups list. I'm tossing out the line, once again fishing for 3 3/4" scale parts/suppliers. Don't make me build a cupola furnace in desperation!!
I'm looking for a source of 6.25" iron wheels for Sandy River trucks. I already know of a coupler source, and I'm getting itchy to get started on some trucks. My partner has rail on order and it won't be long after it's laid before he will be looking for something to roll as well.
I have a few patterns made up for sand casting some Sandy River truck parts, but the journals are a little beyond me at this time.
Input of those interested in same appreciated.

Stan Rutledge
Camano Island

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:17:33 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: SR & RL parts



Stan, David Roher has patterns available for the journal boxes and more. He is working for Roll Models Inc. and they may offer them if enough interest is shown. I have emailed twice and got no response yet.

Later;
Tom Casper

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:43:20 EDT
From: DFWSVW@aol.com

Subject: Re: Off Subject / Train related



Stan, Give Dave Skagen a call down in Shelton. Better yet, call him and drive down and to see his Sandy River. He does have excelent 3 1/2" couplers and I suspect he will have patterns of most other castings you will be needing as well.

Question, where will you be running? Burnaby, KLS, private or (?)?

Doug in Seattle

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:45:05 EDT
From: nashnash@aol.com

Subject: IBLS Pictures



Check out the Golden Gate Live Steamers Web site.

John

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:38:59 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Off Subject / Train related



WQhere and what is Camino Island (sp?) and need for 3 3/4" scale stuff? Just interested in those dedicated to the true narrow gauge.

What's with this 26' dia, SR&RL wheels? New to me.

Cam Brown
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:52:10 -0700
From: "James Hoback"
Subject: Re: Off Subject / Train related

Stan,

Have you conferred with these people http://members.home.net/melcaswell ?
They are building equipment as you describe. Last I knew they had couplers available. They may have a source for wheels and journal boxes as well.

Regards,

Jim Hoback
Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:14:24 -0000
From: "Stan Rutledge"

Subject: RE: 3 3/4" scale



I like rousting this list. Cam, the 26' diameter wheel is for a turntable pit, of course. Camano Island is east of Whidbey Island.
And I am still fishing for 3 3/4" parts. I figured by the Group title I might find some others with a like interest, and perhaps glean some info from those experienced.
Most of my steam railroad experience is in 12"=1', so a little guidance hopefully would be found here. I like the scale because it's easier to free-lance decent-looking locomotives up from this scale, and I'm not looking to put any little 4-8-4's in any backyards.
I was advised by an 18" Forney owner and operator to look into this type of loco for relative simplicity in construction, operation, and maintenance. And this is where I'll start.
My friend likes the idea of getting "into" a cab as I do. I have never been drawn to a train you straddle to ride.
The Sandy Ridge and Clear Lake appeals to me, a prototype of it's own, with the Sandy River influence.
So, here I fishes, hoping to find more of the same. I'm helping my friend, as time permits, build a track at his place to test and prove equipment. I plan on doing the same at my place, just been "hobby money challenged" recently.
Tomorrow we'll be searching out more wood for the project at his place. We have been grading by hand all over the yard, which will not have a lot to mow by the time he's finished. Three bridges and a snowshed will be along a fabricated river. There will be a lot of details in a small area. The line should appear to be a 2-ft line in miniature with scale everything but buildings. There will be a couple semi-scale builings, a shop, and a station just big enough to get inside without breaking bones which will actually house the pump for the "river".
What else would you expect from a train nut?
I have been surfing the web looking for some diagrams of Sandy River pile and timber bridges. We found a source of 4"x4" treated timbers which should work for framing the bents, but he also wants at least one pile bridge. 400' of rail should arrive on Tue or Wed, so you can imagine how eager he is to find bridge info.
I'm still looking for 6.25" iron wheels (this makes a 20" wheel in this scale doesn't it?)
Since the Sandy Ridge has couplers available, we will go with those ?!? STEEL !!! and we will run our equipment wherever it gets an invitation.

Stan Rutledge
East of Whidbey Island
and not currently in an rain shadow

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 13:21:07 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: 3 3/4" scale



I kept quite because others have given you some good leads. You really have to check in with the folks at RMI Railworks. They offer a 6" wheel which may have enough in the casting to machine to 6.25". You should also check with the suppliers of Lucky 7 castings. They were mentioned in an earlier email. If you don't have this one you can search the emails at egroups.

I too will be building a Maine two footer someday and I will probably use these sources.

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:11:36 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: 3 3/4" scale



I too would have to agree on RMI 6" wheels. There is more than enough material to machine to 6.24". These of course are the castings for the "Stuart" 2-4-4T that they offer. RMI also is offering the "Sandy River" which has a larger bunker and longer frame for us bigger guys to get into!

Regards,
Jeff Badger

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:14:21 EDT
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: 3 3/4" scale



Stan and others, another 3.75" Sandy River Prototype is Al McCue's 2-4-2 based on SRRL # 9 without the third driver. See pics below.

Jeff Badger

almccue Sandy River Loco

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:25:52 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: RE: 3 3/4" scale



Try this url, the other didn't work:

http://64.176.223.15/almccue.shtml

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 14:56:34 EDT
From: Thime@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: 3 3/4" scale



Stan, and for those who do not know,

"From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch:

One dead in fireworks plant explosion

Sep. 2, 2000 | 10:19 p.m.

DESOTO, Mo. (AP) -- One person is dead following an explosion at an eastern Missouri fireworks plant.
The blast happened Saturday morning at a plant near DeSoto in Jefferson County. The victim was identified late Saturday as Fred Ellis, the owner of the plant.
``It shook everything and lifted the roof off the building,'' said Wayne Crowell, a witness to the explosion. Firefighters said there were actually three explosions. The building was badly damaged. It took two dozen fire departments about 2 1/2 hours to bring the fire under control.
The cause of the explosion and fire was under investigation."

The "fireworks plant" they're refering to is of course Power Model Supply, the only soure I know of for Lucky 7 drawings/patterns/castings, along with several other fine products.

All records and patterns are believed to be lost.

Along with steam engines Fred also was a licened firearms designer & manufacturer, as well as fireworks. The loss in new and historic firearms alone was probably over a million dollars.

Part of the explosion that damaged the building was undoubtedly the gun powder keg, which had a storage capascity of 2000lbs.

It was a great loss to the hobby, and humanity,
Curtis S. Ferrington

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:29:18 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Re: Lucky 7 Parts



I thought there was an English source available but I can't find it in the archives. It must have been referenced on another list.

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:17:08 EDT
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Lucky 7 Parts



When did this happen? Anything left ? Ray

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:17:12 -0400
From: Stan Zdonick

Subject: Found Lucky 7 source?



I found the reference to Lucky 7 on the Chaski live steam bbs. Here's an excerpt from the posting:

You might want to check A. J. Reeves Co Ltd in Marston Green, Birmingham, UK for a price first. They hold all the Don Young patterns and drawings now and the exchange rate could make for some very good bargains by buying direct.

I don't know if they still carry the Lucky 7 goods. I have sent them an email to find out. Their url is:

http://www.fotec.co.uk/mehs/reeves/mindex.htm

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:39:23 -0000
From: "George Paxon"

Subject: Builders Plate Details on D&RGW 482



We have a 2-1/2" model of D&RGW 2-8-2 No 482 just about ready to steam down here. My mate Bruce, the builder, is about to place order with Dustin for builders plate etchings for smokebox. Curious to know hat the date at the bottom of the plate means and what it was on 482. any one got an idea? We would like to get the date right.

Thanks,

Geo A Paxon

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:36:09 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: RE: 3 3/4" scale



Finger strayed when I MISSED THE CAP BAR ON 26' WHEN SHOULD HAVE BEEN QUESTIOnING (and sometimes look at the screen) why not the almost universal 2 ft. 20" dia. car wheels?

Printed your posting and will atack maps and things to get you pegged geographically.

Posying this on the group to make you all jealous as we are making our almost annual hajj to Maine next week. Wer'll see what can be seen at Portland and Sheepscot.

Cam Brown

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:42:41 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: 3 3/4" scale



By my own peculiar standards the RM 6" dia. wheels are just right (6" divided bt my conversion factor of 0.3) yields the proper 20" dia. Rumor has it that the RH wheels have a nice wide tread. to help those who dream of fudging stuff that will run on 7 1/4 and then on 7 1/2" ga. Are the RMI critters axles fitted with snap rings to gain/lose the deadly 1/4"?

cam B.

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:23:42 -0700
From: Jerry Kimberlin

Subject: Re: RE: 3 3/4" scale



I guess most of you guys are aware of the 3 3/4" scale 7 1/4-1/2" gauge Shay that the New Zealanders brought over for the West Coast IBLS? That engine was a steam dream. Was a 2' NG engine and was certainly large and smooth running. I never asked if there were plans drawn up for it but it shouldn't be too hard to find out.

In the Golden Gate Live Steamers, Andy Clerici occasionally models in 3 3/4" scale. He has an engine for sale I think, a Balwin trench engine made for WW-I in France. Quite a large engine and beautiful workmanship. Once again, Andy doesn't make drawings and just works from pictures. Most parts are fabricated. I'll have to get some details from Andy and that could be soon as GGLS has their Fall Meet coming up the second weekend in October.

JerryK

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:33:47 -0700
From: Jerry Kimberlin

Subject: Re: Found Lucky 7 source?



Good luck getting a reply from reeves. They are in voluntary liquidation, or will be in a week or so. Not advisable to send in orders and expect to get anything right now.

JerryK

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:16:21 -0700

From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Found Lucky 7 source?



Group,

At one time a supplier of Lucky 7 kits was C.A. Street & Sons, Strawberry Hill, P.O. Box 98 Advance, NC 27006, phone 919-998-5046. This company may no longer exist but a friend of mine bought the D&RG C-19 kit from them several years ago.

Regards,

Jim Hoback Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 13:44:30 +1000
From: "Paxon G&C"

Subject: Re: Found Lucky 7 source?



What is available from Streets & Sons in the way of a D&RGW C-19? Is it 2-1/2" for 7-1/4" track? I am building one and am after a few bits. Conway has the bits advertised but they are not yet ready.

Geo A Paxon

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:07:49 -0700
From: "Linc Reed-Nickerson"

Subject: RE: Found Lucky 7 source?



All of the C. A. Street inventory went to Power Model Supply... nobody seems to know for sure, but the word is everything was lost.

Linc

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:01:30 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: RE: 3 3/4" scale



Stan,

Curosity only, what size rail are you and your friend using? If its new rail, who is the supplier?

Regards,

Jim Hoback Tuolumne, CA, U.S.A.
12" gauge railroad

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:06:53 -0700
From: "James Hoback"

Subject: Re: Found Lucky 7 source?



George,

At that time they had the whole kit and caboodle for the C-19 and others, but I don't know if the company even exists today. I have their old catalog and the address information came from that. I don't recall seeing any recent ads by them. Yes, it was 2-1/2" for 7+ track. It was Milner's design from England.

Jim Hoback

Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 17:17:17 +1000
From: "Paxon G&C"

Subject: Re: Found Lucky 7 source?



James,

I have the English drawings and they are way off the mark- wheels were 6 inches dia instead of 7.5" But it could be a good source for bits and pieces. I am looking for dome tops and bottoms and stack castings which Conway has yet to do. The Conway drawings looks right on to me. Thanks for the advbice.

Geo A Paxon