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7-Plus-NGM Digest september 2002

Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 08:32:26 -0400
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Help needed



List

Same time back I remember seeing in..I thought.. The 7+ Narrow Gauger, a set of conversion tables for the different scales, listing all the converted dimensions for 2-1/2" by the inch. It also listed the other scale's conversions as well.

I have gone thru all my old 7+'s ( all I could find, anyway) and I cannot find it. I need it urgently for the Tom Artzberger RGS20 project. Can anyone help? Did I see it somewhere else? Am I having another senior moment?

Help! Please!

don orr
www.locoparts.net

Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 09:46:11 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Help needed



Don,

I seem to remember all kinds of conversion tables in Live Steam in the mid to end 70's.
Maybe someone, keeping their collection in an oderly manner, could help you.
Arno

Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 09:46:05 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Help needed



Don,
I think I have the issue you are looking for. Volume 10 # 3. The article is called "A Beginners Guide To Scale and Gauge". In the article is a chart that has the Prototype Gauge, Model Gauge, Decimal Scale, Fractional Scale and Nominal Scale. Is that the one you are looking for?

If so, let me know or give me a call. I'll be in the shop all day today.

If you have any further questions, please ask.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 14:44:56 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: Bearings



Andrew -

We have built several locomotives and have use "Garlock" bearings with great success. These bearings are thin sleeves of steel with a sintered bronze liner which is impregnated with lead teflon. These bearings have the same rolling characteristics as roller bearings with a smaller cross section than needle bearings, and they do not require the hard inner race and require a much less severe press fit.

Add to that that they can be run dry w/o lube and that they are very low cost and you have a real winner. They work great on side rods, too!

Good luck,

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 01:01:47 EDT
From: GMEYER6103@AOL.Com

Subject: Re: Help needed



I don't know if this will solve your question but this is the way I calculate it. I divide 7.5 inches (the gauge) by 36 which is the number of scale inches you want the gauge (7.5) to represent. The answer that I get is that 0.2083333 = one scale inch in 2.5 inch scale. To calculate what two inches is, multiply 0.2083333 by 2 (answer, 0.4166666), to calculate what three is multiply 0.2083333 by 3 (answer, 0.6249999) and so on and so on. To find what a half inch is, divide one scale inch 0.2083333 by 2 (answer is 0.1041666). To find what a quarter inch is, divide one scale inch 0.2083333 by 4 (answer is 0.0520833). I am sure that their are smarter people out there with better ways of calculating this. But this way works for me!....Gary Meyer

Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 23:19:57 -0700 From: "netcom"

Subject: Re: Help needed



Another, and I think easier, way to scale down parts is to multiple the prototype dimension, in feet, by the scale factor and you get an answer in inches.

prototype gauge = 3'
scale factor = 2.5 "/'
answer = 7.5"
3' x 2.5 = 7.5"

prototype drivers = 30" (2.5')
scale factor = 2.5
answer = 6.25"
2.5' x 2.5 = 6.25"

If you want to work in inches, then divide the scale factor by 12" = .208333"/"

prototype gauge = 36"
multiplier = 2.083333
answer = 7.4999988 " (rounded up to 7.5)

prototype drivers = 30"
multiplier = .2083333
answer = 6.249999 (rounded up to 6.25)

Now that you are completely confused, I'll say good bye.

Hugh Smith

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:20:03 EDT
From: DBauer2250@aol.com

Subject: Re: Help needed



Hi Don:
The best set of conversion tables I have seen were in "Live Steam" back in the 80s. They were highly detailed tables in fractions of inch. There is indeed one for 2.5" scale. If you can't find them, I will be happy to look them up and copy for you.
Don Bauer

Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:14:59 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: Re: Help needed



I use a similiar method but I divide by 4.8. division seems by be for intuitive for most people because you are scaling from a large number to a small number.
example 36" guage -> 36" / 4.8 = 7.5" or 42" driver -> 42" / 4.8 = 8.75"

to scale up multiply. Again it makes sense because you are scaling from small to large.

example 1.25" diameter axle material -> 1.25" x 4.8 = 6"

hope this helps.

Michael Blaisdell
Network Administrator
Saint Francis University 814-472-3242

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:55:22 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: (Fwd) steam



All:

Please check out the web site of an e-mail friend of mine. I think you will be impressed.

http://members.surfeu.fi/animato/steamloco.html

Cheers
Lex A. Parker, MMR
Visit my hobby Web site at:
Denver & Rio Grande Western Railroad


Hubert

Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 12:00:45 -0400
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Re: Help needed



Thanks to all who responded to my request. I have found the easiest way to any conversion factor is 12"/scale. Anyway, I thought I remembered the tables but I was wrong about the source. They are indeed in Live Steam, many months coverage in 1975 and all possible scales. Actually, I could have run them out on an EXCEL spreadsheet in less time than it took me to look thru the old LS mags to find the right year. Somehow, the search took on a life of it's own and it became a project.

Thanks again!

BTW: Anyone have any prototype drawings for the RGS20 tender?
Currently using the only thing available that I know of: 20th Century FOx 1949 drawings for the movie "Ticket to Tomahawk". Just for info, I am developing the tender kits for the Tom Artzberger RGS20 Project.
Rich: you asked about this: Yes, I am part of the group.

don orr www.locoparts.net

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:20:28 -0500
From: "Ronald Koehler"

Subject: Re: Help needed



I also use the multiplication factor of .208 which is close enough for me. I also take a certain amount of liberites in scaling, for example: a 4 X 8 inch wide board would scale to .832 X 1.664. I use a standard 1 X 2 board which is actually .750 X 1.50. The length of the board (in this case for passenger car trucks) would be close to actual length. It's close enough for me and looks good.
Ron Koehler

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:37:52 -0700
From: "Arthur & Loraine Watters"

Subject: Re: Help needed



I use Lotus 123 to do all the calc. for Scaling. It works great.

Arthur Watters

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 19:47:48 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Help needed



I cant help with the tender info but, does anyone know where I can get a vidieo of the movie "Ticket to Tomahawk" on VHS.
Thanks,
Bill

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:58:29 EDT
From: GMEYER6103@AOL.Com

Subject: Re: Help needed



Very good, Michael! Using 4.8 really works! I don't know why, but it does.
Thanks! Gary Meyer

Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 23:02:12 -0500
From: "Ronald Koehler"

Subject: Re: Help needed



To get from full size to scale size multiply by .208 as our scale is 4.8 times smaller

To get from scale size to full size multiply by 4.8 as a full size is 4.8 times larger

Most of the time we are taking dimensions from a full size engine, car, etc and scaling it down by multiplying by .208

1 divided by .208 equils 4.8

Ron

Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 01:14:55 EDT
From: GMEYER6103@AOL.Com

Subject: Re: Help needed



It works every time Ron, now I know why!.......Gary

Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:50:29 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: Bearings - more on Garlock Bearings...



Andrew -

I was traveling when I sent my initial response to your inquiry and I did not have all the data I needed to give you a complete response.

The website for the bearings is http://www.garlockbearings.com/english/index.html; that should lead you to all the data you need.

In addition to locomotive main and side rod bearings, we have had great success using them in truck journal boxes. For thos we make up a special bearing block so that they can flex with the truck motion and not bind.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 22:36:09 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: New Pixs Of Alan Shifley's Track



Alan Shifley ran trains along with Roy Anderson this past weekend at Alan's private track.

Several shots were taken with the steamers in action and scenes of Alan's extension project.

Thanks to Alan & Roy for sharing things pixs!

http://www.sscom.org/ link to "Live Steaming In The Pacific Northwest"

Enjoy!

Dan Morris.

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:57:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Baker

Subject: 2.5 scale switcher



Hello, i am building (well in the planning stages now) a 2.5" = 1ft 7 1/2" gauge switcher that is patterned after an ex-U.S. Army GE 25 ton and i am planning on using a 5hp briggs & stratton gas engine with either a hydrolic pump and motor using chain and sprokett to the axle or using the gas engine,an alternator and an electric motor,but the quistion is would it be possible to find a 12 volt motor that would fit that is 12 horspower. or what do most people use for traction motors.thanks for any info.

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:06:58 -0400
From: "Pat@Sn3.org"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



With proper reduction I don't think you would need anywhere near a 12 HP electric motor.
2-3 HP total with electric motor(s) should be more than enough to cause the wheels to spin with all the weight you could fit in it.

Pat Turner

Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:36:56 -0500
From: "Ronald Koehler"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher


Hello Paul,

It's great to hear that someone is tackling this project. Would you be willing to share your information?

Ron Koehler

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:36:22 +0100
From: Michael Adams

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher


After using Honda electric start engine plus Eaton hydrolic pump for over ten years i could recomend this set up. Other than regular oil changes to the Honda and chain greasing no fault has occured in that time. i also have friends who have the Briggs & stratton and kabuto diesel engine here in the uk with various sizes of the eaton pump. the cost of the electrics, motors etc in the UK are far higher.

Mike Adams

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:50:09 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



I was looking at a similiar project some time ago. I never started it but I had some ideas. I like the idea of using a gas engine (even with the noise) but I didn't like the direct drive. I thought that a alternator/traction motor drive was a good solution. I had found information on converting a 12 volt car alternator to 24 or 36 volt at lower rpms than normal. Some of this information was drawn from the wind power and off-road jeep (underhood welders) camps. I had found resonably priced 24 volt controllers from a guy in PA. He even had a R/C board for the controller for remote operation!

my setup was this:

5HP gas engine direct drive to a modified alternator. Feed the power to two 12 volt car batteries in series. draw power from the batteries to the controller and send it to the traction motors. I feel the batteries are necessary for smooth operation. The gas engine would be governed to charge the batteries NOT directly run the engine. I thought about a idle circuit that could drop the gas engine to idle when the bateries topped off.

The traction motor setup was gear reduction 3:1 or 4:1. I found fractional HP 24 volt DC motors and planned on using one on each axle (4 axles).

Mike

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:04:39 -0700
From: keith.w.johnson@tek.com

Subject: 42-volt electrical systems



Hi All,

This message is about 42-volt automotive electrical systems. I think it will have implications for 7+" electromotive engine builders in the coming years. This was news to me, and I have not yet seen mention of it in any model RR magazines. Read on if you're interested...

By the way, I'm an engine-less newcomer to 7+" railroading and hope to "go steam" in the long run. But right now, my inexperience and lack of free time makes me think I'd better start out with a putt-putt engine. I enjoy reading e-mail and magazine articles about hydraulic vs. electrical drive vs. mechanical drive systems. I hope to make some intelligent design/purchase decisions in the not-too-distant future.

Keith Johnson, Portland, OR, USA
--


I just read an article in Electronic Engineering Times magazine about an upcoming switch from 12-volt to 42-volt systems in automobiles. The article states that half of all new cars will use 42-volt systems by 2010 and they are expecting a 100% switch by the year 2020. The switch from 6-volt to 12-volt was started in 1955 by General Motors and the last car maker (Volkswagen) switched in 1966. The true voltage of a charged 12-volt lead-acid battery is around 14 volts, and three times that is 42.

There are several reasons for this switch. One is the vast number of electrical items in today's cars (heated seats, window defrosters, power everything, high-wattage audio gear, etc). Automakers are working on electrical steering and brakes, not to mention electrically dampened suspension systems. The other compelling reason is the expected number of hybrid engines that will shut off it idle and will require electrical motors to get both the car and the internal combustion motor/generator going again quickly. There are already several models of those cars for sale today (Honda, Toyota, etc). Hand-in-hand with all this is new 42-volt battery technology to move beyond lead-acid. Many newer technologies charge faster, which may be important in a small electromotive train engine.

For the next several years these new cars will have hybrid electrical systems with both 12 (i.e.14) volt and 42-volt components. Until all components can be retooled for 42-volt. This will spawn a whole new era of 42-volt alternators and motors. That may seem odd at the present, but when was the last time you bought a 6-volt light bulb or a six-volt motor or 6-volt car radio? There are several advantages to 42-volt systems. The wiring can be one-third the current capacity of a 12-volt system with the same power load. A starter motor (or traction motor) today can easily draw a couple hundred amps (at 12-volts) and the wiring and relays have to handle it. Also, the higher-voltage motors make it easier to regulate the starting torque of the motor using pulse-width modulation. This also helps with 7+" trains that need to get rolling smoothly and quickly from a dead stop.

Electronics companies are now working on switching and regulation devices for this 42-volt stuff. The International Standards Organization is developing the ISO 21848 standard to describe these power-management techniques. That should help standardize electronic speed controls, switching & polarity reversing, and charging systems like we would need in a small train.

This is all a long time away for railroad hobbyists, but I think by the time I've gone off to the big roundhouse in the sky 42-volt will be commonplace and 12-volt (and 24-volt marine/industrial) systems will be history.

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:19:12 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher gas electric drive



Paul -

My partner John Cook and I are in the process of building a pair of D&RGW #50 switch engines from scratch out of steel from the original Davenport blueprints.

We are building them using a B&S Vanguard 16HP V-Twin engine coupled to a Chicago Electric Motor Generator set that puts out 240V and 120 V AC and 12VDC. It is in turn coupled through a commercial conveyer belt controller to a 0-60VDC electric motor which is coupled to the driving axle by a dual reduction gear.

We are currently "running on air" and the system works very well. The controller includes dynamic braking a-la the prototype diesel electrics. Speed control is very smooth from dead crawl "inching" (great for switching) to full top speed (calculated at about 10MPH but still TBD). The dynamic braking is very abrupt on the bench buy the true test will be on the track with a load. We are planning on using a radio control to operate the controller so as to allow walk around operation in the yards and remote operatio on the mainline.

We chose this route because we wanted to be different and because our track at the Joshua Tree and Souther RR http://www.jtsrr.org gets a long way from plug in power, so the locomotive can double as a remote power supply.

This is a fairly pricey way to go, but it does work. If you would be interested in more detail and some photos, please write me directly off chat and I will be glad to provide additional specs and photos.

Rudy van Wingen
VP,
JT&S RR Club & Museum

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:33:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Baker

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Hi, thanks for the advice. i was wandering about what you meant by reduction. like through gears? this engine will need to be powerful enough to haul 3 cars with two adults on each one up a 2% grade.both axles will be powered and chained togather for anti-slipping. I was also thinking possibly i could use two 6 or 5 hp motors.any adice would be greatly accepted.

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:20:48 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5 scale switcher gas electric drive



Hi Rudy:

Dynamic isn't always all that smooth on the big ones either. Depending on the make and model, some of them give you a big shot when you go into Number 1 dynamic, and then drop back to a low level, and the slack runs back out. After all that, they will pick up gradually through the range. Some of them will come in smooth, and gradually increase as you move the dynamic handle. The newer locos decay so slowly as speed drops that you can slide the wheels in dynamic when stopping. EMD says that doesn't happen, but I know better :>) As you say, it should smooth out on the track with a load behind though.

Just this week, the Company put out a notice that the new 4100 series GE Dash-9's are outlawed off the point, because they are susceptible to electrical fires, until furthur notice from some bird in Ft. Worth. Yesterday, the guy second back from me going to Gillette had to stop and tie his train down because he had an electrical cabinet fire on his lead motor...a MAC. I had a nice Oakway SD-60 on the point of my clay train...I'll take the old ones anyday. They're faster, more comfortable (the so-called "comfort cab" is a considerable misnomer), and they don't break down as often :>)

Best,
Mike

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:18:46 -0400
From: Dwayne Miller

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Yes, reduction is the ratio from the shaft of the motor to the wheels on the rail.

This should be reduced greatly or the speed of the loco will be very high, and have lots of wheel slip and little pulling power.

The 3' long switcher I am currently building (from a mix-match of plans and my own ideas) will have something in the range of 9 to 1, it may be slow top speed, but thats fine. My kids (ages 5-10) will be driving it.

Dwayne Miller
Barberton, Ohio

Asso. Member:
Northeast Ohio Live Steamers
Medina, Ohio

Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:14:43 -0700
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: 42-volt electrical systems



Reply:
Thanks for the heads-up on the new systems. Your summary was concise and well written. I had heard rumors, but little fact. I wonder where I will get "cheap" 12 V deep discharge batteries ten years from now to run my headlights and air compressor? Maybe I can make my dummy steam air pump into a working one by then!
Thanks - Howard Springer

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:42:59 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Hi all,

I too am planning to build a gas-electric-engine to run next year at the Train Mountain Triennial.

I found a reasonably priced Briggs&Stratton 3.5 hp engine at the garden-section of a local do-it-yourself-store. I bought the garden-equipment, removed the engine and sold the rest through ebay.
Also, I was able to get a brand-new 24 volt alternator through eBay, not far away from my home.

I will connect the alternator to the gas-engine and charge two 12 volt batteries in series. This batteries will feed the electronic to control the 24 Volt motor.

I plan to set up a special website, when the work continues.

Hubert
Moderator of the 7-plus-ngm - mailing list

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:37:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Baker

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Hi, thanks for the info.I think using ur setup would a good idea but how would one go about turning a 12v into a 24v and with reduced rpm would a vertical engine have enough rpm for it to work.and also how much do those fractional hp motors go for.thanks.

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:35:30 -0400
From: Dwayne Miller

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Hi all,

Greetings back... Hope you dont mind a few questions....

I too am planning to build a gas-electric-engine to run next year at the Train Mountain Triennial > (http://www.trainmountain.org).

Cool.. This is what I am planning for my next creation.

I found a reasonably priced Briggs&Stratton 3.5 hp engine at the garden-section of a local do-it-yourself-store. I bought the garden-equipment, removed the engine and sold the rest through ebay.
Also, I was able to get a brand-new 24 volt alternator through eBay, not far away from my home.


Hmm Reasonably priced 3.5HP BS engines are not that hard to find. The generator is kicking my butt, where, from who and how much did you find your generator?

I will connect the alternator to the gas-engine and charge two 12 volt batteries in series. This batteries will feed the electronic to control the 24 Volt motor.

Sounds reasonable.

I plan to set up a special website, when the work continues.

Please, PLEASE, keep us posted, drop us a note when you update the site!

Thanks for your time,

Dwayne Miller

Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:44:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: paul garin

Subject: Re: Digest Number 601



The change to 42 vdc systems is not as straight forward as it might appear. I had an opportunity to attend a lecture by a Ford development engineer who spoke on this subject. Basically, the next generation of automobiles will have a primary 42vdc bus for basic power distribution throughout the vehicle. This will allow light wiring and connectors (these fellows are actually chasing each ounce of weight). Now the fun part. Each attached device will be optimized for ist specific function. Window motors may be 15 volts, lights 36 volts, etc. Each device will covert the 42 volts to whatever value it deems most appropriate to its function. To save additional weight, there are no discrete control circuits. each device is intelligent and receives its operating instructions from packets of information sent down the main power bus! The best fallout from this technology for our hobby will probably be in smaller, more efficient power handlers.
Anyway, the funs just beginning!
paul garin

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:12:44 -0000
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Hi Dwayne,

Greetings back... Hope you dont mind a few questions....

No, that's, what this list is for.

Hmm Reasonably priced 3.5HP BS engines are not that hard to find.
The generator is kicking my butt, where, from who and how much did you find your generator?


Might be not in the states, but here in Germany they are hard to get.
If you find one, it has normally the vertical-crank-shaft and was used on a lawn-mover. Mostly worn out.
I bought mine brand new, and before I bought it, I requested the price from the local Bridge & Stratton dealer. The price for the engine was around 50 Euro (a little bit less than $) higher than to buy the garden equipment for 339 Euro(it is used to remove moss and other things out of the lawn - horizontal rotating blades) and throw the rest away. I put the rest for sale on eBay and sold it for 46.24 Euro, which put the overall price down.

The 24 Volt alternator is a normal three-phase current Bosch alternator, a german product. It's the same type, I have in my vanagon, only as a 24 Volt dc version.
It's brandnew and came from a commercial excavator. It put's out around 35 Ampere, which should be enough for charging the batteries.

Please, PLEASE, keep us posted, drop us a note when you update the site!

Sure.

Hubert from Germany
Your moderator

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:48:51 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: (no subject)



Greetings to all...just a note on gasser building... I have my OHV Briggs in the basement and will be going with a sunstrand drive ... It will be chain final drive to the axles. A pretty common tried and true setup..Body is the No 50 switcher...Material for the body is from home dishwasher and appliance bodies tossed out in the community.. all free.. Axles will be ball bearing for free rolling..Brakes will be Air with 12 volt pump and tractor battery fro electric lites and horn... I bid you peace...

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:19:32 +0200
From: "Josef Wagner"

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



halllo to all
looking for such an odd motorization
i apreciate electric drive, and there might surely be an motor-gear unit to fit dirving a secondary chain to the main axel. but why do you not make usage of a motor-generator unit what is here in austria offered in power ranges from 2HP to 15 HP in big tool markets for remote electric supply. this of coarse is offering 220V or even 400V at 50Hz, direct current would be better but think on the high ampere running through!!
regards
josef

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 21:03:26 -0000
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



Hello Josef,

their are two main reasons, why I decided for this configuration:

1. The batteries allow me to switch without running the gas-motor.
Also, I can run my speeder at the Indoor Live Steam Festival in Sinsheim, where steam- and battery is allowed, but no gas-engines.
And, if the gas-motor fail, I still have enough power to continue my run to the next siding. This is - in my opinion - very important, when I operate my engine at Train Mountain.
2. Installing high-voltage (and 230 Volt AC is high-voltage by law here in Germany) has to be done by an approved electric-technician. Also, I don't know about any control-unit for 230 Volt.

The units, you mentioned, I also thought about. But, if they are small enough to fit in the speeder, they are really pricey, and the cheaper models are to big.

I prefer for my models material, I can get really easy, especially for the drive-train.

And so, I think, my planned construction is the best for me to handle.

Hubert from Germany

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:33:07 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: Gas/Electric and 220 - 240V



The B&S/Ohio Electric MG set we are using produces 240 and 120VAC and 12VDC. We will use the AC voltages in remote areas at JT&S to power tools for layout work. The 12VDC will be used to operate vacuum pumps, air pumps, and of course keep the starting battery charged.

The electric drive motor is a Baldor Industrial Motor Catalog #CDP3455 1HP, 1,750 RPM Continuous Duty Zero to 60VDC. It is controlled by a Baldor Solid State DC Motor Speed Control #BC141 that converts the 240V output of the generator to variable DC. I am not sure of the DC waveform supplied to the motor, but when running on rollers on the bench, there is a definite "cogging" at very slow speeds. Speed control is very smooth and uses about 90 of rotation on the potentiometer.

The speed of the motor is reduced first by a Browning "PowerLine" 16:1 in line reducer that bolts to the flange on the end of the motor and the shafts are rigidly connected. The output shaft of the reducer is keyed and it is connected via a universal joint to a Browning Bevel Gear Box which adds another 2:1 reduction and translates the shaft torque from in line to 90 to the locomotive frame. The gear reduction delivers 55 RPM to the drivers at full 1,750 RPM motor speed. Shaft horsepower is 32 less gear losses.

The output shafts to the drive wheels are inset into sockets in the wheel axles and we chose to lock them in place with taper pins through the axles and shafts rather than use the key slots provided in the shafts. The drive wheels are finished to 6.960" OD. The wheels were given a final trueing cut after the axles had been mounted to the gear box; there was less that .001" run out.

Since the drivers are sprung and equalized, it was necessary to design a motor mount that could flex and move with the motion of the main driver relative to the locomotive frame. The motor is mounted to the frame at three points: the 90 gear box (3 bolts in holes provided) at the 16:1 reducer (2 bolts in holes provided), and at the rear of the motor using a custom made saddle.

The factory obviously felt that the two bolts were adequate for the mounting of the motor in a static situation as a belt drive, but we felt that out on the track the rear support was necessary. The entire motor mount is pivoted in the front by means of a ball joint that allows for vertical motion of the main driver shaft and longitudinal rotation caused by side to side rocking on track joints.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:22:20 -0000
From: "fredhaskey"

Subject: Blind Drivers



I'm hoping to build a Consilidation (2-8-0) and the center drivers are 'blind' (flangeless). What is the profile of such a driver? Are they completely flat? Tapered? Thanks for any info..

---john.

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:09:20 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Blind Drivers



Hi John:

The full size ones are basicly flat, with a little taper on each side, so they don't hang up on guard rails, etc.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:55:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Baker

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5 scale switcher



thanks for all the information. I was wandering the horse power required from a loco this size?i have decided ill probably go with electric but where would i go to get some 24vdc motors and altinator that are fairly priced.and could i run my engine off of the batteries and then turn on the gas engine to recharge them?also where could i get those gear boxes for a 4:1. thanks for any advice

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:52:01 EDT
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: electric motors for drives



In My honest opinion the best set of compromises for electric traction motors are several small motors hung on the axles of the trucks with a 8:1 or so gearing...The gearing must let the motor turn enough to cool itself and develop some power, at low speeds... Costers old designs were 12 to one with steel driven and 12 tooth brass pinion with a small motor(I dont recall the size).. The pinions wore very badly and required replacement every two seasons or so because of the enormous pressures that a coasting train put on the pinion to drive the motor.. And the control system was a power waster of dropping diodes that limited available volts to the motors..
Any Battery powered system must keep in mind the balance of smaller motors, doing work at reduced voltages causing high amp flows,to drain off amps from a (limited) storage battery..All very quiet compared to a Bugs-n-scrapiron, sounding like mowin the rails....Now electronic drives for golf carts and wheel chairs have all the power you need to drive a healthy load for hours..
Fractional horsepower elclectic motors do 'work' in a diferent sense than an IC powerplant , so the HP numbers are way off...There are many operating battery locomotives around, so talk to the guys at your local clubs and get to know how those engines are put together to run...
Another idea that worked well was to runa set of 4 small motors through a wafer switch so that the motors provided resistance for each other at each step.. Therefore no power wasting resistors... ( welll one anyway, that was switched in and out at diferent configurations to even out the steps...)
When I have time I will set up some very small Permag motors from those plastic ride on Jeeps to power a remade gearbox to run a boxcab.. Should be interesting.. I have the guts to several trolling motors and their switchs and resistance coils to boot.. I will run next year...(thats what I said this year, WOW)....!

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:29:20 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: Re: electric motors for drives



http://divelec.tripod.com/id1.html

This link is for a company that supplies low cost electronic controllers. I have talked with this guy and he knows what is doing. I like the R/C option board available for his controllers.

Electric controllers use pulse width modulation to control the speed of the motor. No resistance and loss of power due to heat. PWM also gives a flatter torque curve. So low speed power is not a problem.

Take a look.

Michael Blaisdell
Network Administrator
Saint Francis University

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:09:49 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Gas/Electric and 220 - 240V



WUNNERFUL!WUNNERFUL! This drive discourse. Saved against the time I get off my butt and "do" the too-long-in-planning/no action two foot section car.

Did your stuff arive?

I may have been unfocused but cannot recall a Sylvestor Puddycat at our meet last weekend. Did oull into the yard following a pickup with CA plates - another of your esteemeg buddies. Complained that he couldn't run hjs broad gauged stuff on our (properly) narrow gauged track.

Picture of your derby in memory. When not sneaking computer time away fro something I'm told should have been done last sunday I'll find it and ship ot off as attachment.

C/H

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:24:59 -0000
From: "solarbake"

Subject: smokebox temps



I AM Currently painting smokebox and surrounding parts ie chimney saddle door etc and am wondering if anybody knows what temperature the smokebox gets to as i want to bake on the paint at slightly higher temperature.
Any suggestions would be grateful

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:49:40 EDT
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: smokebox temps



Group;

I once saw a smkebox reach 1,200 degrees, running a MIKADO on Jet-A fuel, (Oil Fired). The inside of the smoke box were melted pretty bad.

David Hannah, III
D&RGW #1209, RRSC Mikado

Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:31:19 +0200
From: "Josef Wagner"

Subject: Re: smokebox temps



sirs
i have designed a lot of fired heaters, burner working on natural gas as well as light fuel oil.
hte purpose of this heater is heat transfer from the flame with the help of the flue gases to the water or glycol, and not to blow out hot waste gases. so normally i would suggest you a smoke box gas temperature about 800 F as absolutely maximum.
in the case fine unburned wood/coal dust has accumulated there and due to very high lambda will afterburn at any occassion this temperature will rise to really unforeseen rates!
regards
josef wagner
vienna, austria

Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 03:21:38 -0000
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Flat Cars



I need info on flat cars used during the early part of WWII to transport tanks in the US for the Army,the ones that would have been used by the Government not private contractors to ship new ones. Pictures would be helpful if possible or web sites as need to build several standard gauge ones in 1.6 scale,thanks.
Boyd Butler

Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:37:39 -0000
From: "Chris Allan"

Subject: Re: Flat Cars



If you are in the LA area, at the Orange Empire Trolley Museum there are several DODX heavy-duty flat cars with the 6-wheel "Buckeye" trucks that are now used to transport equipment on and off site. Their web address is www.oerm.org.
Good luck,
Chris

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:19:40 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Introductions all around



Hello group,

Having discovered a 7.5" gauge club near my house, my mind is finally made up. Forget the G gauge, I'm going with a real challenge.I guess you could call me a super-scaler. I'm only interested in the super-large 4.8:1 narrow gauge and super-small 1:160 narrow gauge.

My goals are simple:
1. build something that moves
2. build the Durango switcher #50,
3. build something live steam
4. build a 7.5" gauge live steam K-27.

So, to goal #1. What is the best approach here? I'd like something somewhat prototypical, I don't have a lot of money, I have acess to a fully equipped machine shop with two large lathes, welders, saws, and overhead mills. I also have access to a decent cabinet shop. Did I mention I don't have a lot of money?

Is there some good online sources of plans? I guess I'd start from the ground up, and would need some wheel profiles, standard flange widths and depths, tread width. Some advice on building a frame and doing suspension would be helpful too.

Thanks,
Roy Stevens

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:30:56 -0400
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



Hi Roy and welcome,
Looking at your goals, you don't want too much do you. My suggestion is to build the #50 as your first project.
It's a simple locmotive with plans available thru many channels. This way you could knock off two goals with one cut and get started on the K27 real soon. Lots of info on just about everything at the livesteaming website www.livesteaming.com.
Including the IBLS wheel standards.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:33:13 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



Hi Roy;
Your objectives are great and it looks like you'll have the equipment to work with. Get started on that #50 this way your have something to run, don't forget a riding car while your at it. The K27 will be a great loco to build. Besides it's pleasing to look at and I think there are 2 of them that do or will run. These would be the one on the C&T and the other at Huckleberry in Michigan.
Good luck to you and maybe I can help you along somehow.
Yours,
Bill Cochrane

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:03:39 -0700
From: Peter Moseley

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



Roy:

If you're interested in a K-27 call Richard Ulin, Ulin Locomotive Works. He is making one for Ron Schmidt and will sell casting sets and drawings for those interested. If you're really poor though I'm not sure you can end up with a K-27 no matter how you go about it.

Richard Ulin - 1160 Lilac Street, Broomfield, CO 80020 Tel: 303-466-8241

Peter Moseley
Flintridge and Portola Valley RR, Eastern Division

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:20:36 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



Can you give me an address or two for #50 plans.

Thanks
Mike
Michael Blaisdell

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:25:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: MICHAEL DENNING

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



Whaat is a #50 ?
Thanks
Michael
Florida
USA
Iron Nut

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:58:48 -0000
From: "Ron"

Subject: What is #50



Michael,

#50 is a small 0-4-0 diesel switcher that was used by the D&RGW. It was narrow guage (3') and was quite distinctive. It was an outside frame locomotive and power was transmitted from the drive axle to the other axle via a side rod. When viewed from the side, it had the distinctive counter weights as the steam locomotives. It would make a wonderful model with a lot of side action!

Good Luck
Ron

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:07:42 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



I didn't say I was really poor, but I also didn't want suggestions like: "buy such-and-such loco from such-and-such manufacturer for $7000.00" I'm a do-it-myself type of guy, and I think I'm going to need the experience when I do get to the point where I have the time and capital to tackle that K-27.
But I don't want it to be my first project, since I've seen it too many times where someone wants to get into the hobby, jumps in with both feet into the deep end and ends up with a bunch of castings gathering rust in his garage lamenting the fact that he doensn't have anything to run or anywhere to run it. By my timetable I'm at least five years from starting the K.
But I have plenty of time, I'm only 27. I've got some plans ready for a Rio Grande narrow gauge gondola, and I'm going to order the steel today to build up some archbar trucks.

Roy Stevens

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:11:58 -0000
From: "fredhaskey"

Subject: Re: What is #50



There is a photo of the 50 here:

http://wasteam.railfan.net/crrm/i56c.jpg


It also served the Sumpter Valley and the Roaring Camp tourist railroad.

---john.
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:10:32 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"
Subject: Re: Introductions all around

Roy,

"I have acess to a fully equipped machine shop with two large lathes, welders, saws, and overhead mills. I also have access to a decent cabinet shop."

Very nice.

"Did I mention I don't have a lot of money?"

Do you have a room for rent? ;-)

"Having discovered a 7.5" gauge club near my house..."

Which one, if I may ask?

"Is there some good online sources of plans?"

Some stuff at www.colong.com on both the #50 and K27s....more Colorado stuff. :-( At least your narrow (gauge) minded. ;-)

To build the #50 talk to Rudy VanWingen. He posts here and I'm sure he'll pop up soon. We just went though a big dicussion on disels and such so be sure to check the archive.

Another good source for information is Sean & Dave at the Hillcrest Shops (5inchsteam.8k.com).

If you're serious about the K27 I second the reccomendation to get ahold of Richard Ulin. Start saving up money now for the thing. Through Ulin or by yourself it will be an expensive engine.

"I guess I'd start from the ground up, and would need some wheel profiles, standard flange widths and depths, tread width."

Look around for the IBLS standards.

"Some advice on building a frame and doing suspension would be helpful too."

Don't screw up. Hows that for helpful advice? Actually start looking around for shops that have Water-Jet, Laser or Plasma CNC cutters. Thoes three are in order of best to lowest quality too, which also means they're listed most expensive to cheapest.

As far as I know the #50 doesn't have any "suspension", just leaf springs over the drivers mounted to the frame.

I would reccomend a gas-hydraulic system for the power & longevity.

Cheers,

Curtis F.

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:13:43 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: Introductions all around



OK, lots of good suggestions. Perhaps I will go with the #50 as my first project, I have one in Nn3 that runs on DCC, I suppose 7.5" gauge should be easy compared to that. I have a line on a 3.5 HP motor brand new for $140.00. Would that be enough to push around a couple cars full of people? And I've looked around for hydraulic pumps and motors to match but havn't come up with any. What are some good sources for these? As for the club, it's called S&S Shortline, just across I-15 from Lagoon amusement park for those familiar with the area.

Roy Stevens
Utah

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:35:34 -0400
From: Dwayne Miller

Subject: Re: Re: Introductions all around



Roy Stevens wrote:

OK, lots of good suggestions. Perhaps I will go with the #50 as my first project, I have one in Nn3 that runs on DCC, I suppose 7.5" gauge should be easy compared to that. I have a line on a 3.5 HP

Easy, maybe, if you have all the tools (lathe, welder, sheet metal brake/shear, etc) that you will need.

motor brand new for $140.00. Would that be enough to push around a couple cars full of people? And I've looked around for hydraulic

3.5 horses is plenty for one to three cars of people (one adult and two kids or two adults per car, granted its limited, but works).

pumps and motors to match but havn't come up with any. What are some good sources for these?

Well, there are several ways to go about this.

For a first project, I would suggest a mechinical drive, you can always rebuild the frame with a hydro drive later if you decide its worth it.(Meaning a centrifgual clutch, and a small forward reverse transmission, plus belts/chains to drive a jackshaft, to the axles).

I suggest this as its quicker, cheaper and less machine intenesive than a hydro drive, if you have the cash, you could most likely build one of these in a weekend, assuming you have a decent farm supply store around you (or a bearing/gear outlet) and buy the wheels in advance.

But you can aquire hydro stuff from MSCdirect.com (I think thats it) and several other places. I would seriously suggest you have someone who knows hydro stuff look over your plans, to be sure your not going to either crawl along the tract at 0.5 mph or speed at 40 mph and not get any traction.

Dwayne

Who hopes to have his switcher done before christmas!

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:14:03 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Re: Introductions all around



Au contraire Curtis, she has a fully functional 3-point suspension. A transverse bar in front of the front axle is pivoted in the middle and the ends hook to the front ends of the front leaf springs. Very effective on models too. I have built two such suspensions, one on a #50 and one on a Plymouth.

Regards,

Jim
Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:39:35 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Introductions all around



Time to upload a picture to the photo section, Jim.
Arno

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:30:38 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: AGM Meet At Comrie In Scotland Pix



I have just posted recent pixs from the 7.25" Societies AGM Meet at Comrie in Scotland. From the pixs received it looks as though they had an awfully good time!

Many thanks to Tony Gosling for sharing his pixs with us!

http://www.sscom.org/

Enjoy!

Dan Morris

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:03:39 EDT
From: Smallhand@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Introductions all around



If there's a harbor freight near you, check out their 5 HP Brigg & Stratton engine it sells for about $200.00
I found my mechanical transmissions at the City dump and at a lawn mower repair shop.
R. Hill

Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:30:13 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: D&RGW #50 Suspension



OK Arno, I put two photos of the prototype in the photos section of this list. I took these about 22 years ago at the RCBT in Felton, CA. Now that I look at the photos I have to correct my earlier comment and say that the transverse bar/lever is behind the front axle and not ahead of it. In photo one you can see the end of the hook on the end of the lever/bar where it passes through a hole in a dagger. This dagger passes downward through the rear end of the spring. The lever/bar has a central pivot point which provides the 3-point suspension. The second photo provides an overall view of the right front spring on #50.



Jim
Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:50:23 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: D&RGW #50 Suspension



Good pictures.
Thanks Jim.
Arno

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:42:34 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: D&RGW #50 Suspension



Thank you Jim!

I wasn't aware of that equalization lever, but it makes perfect sense.

Curtis F.

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:00:28 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: D&RGW #50 project



With all the talk about #50 I wonder if it would make a great collaboration project. Share resources and materials online. I would make a great first project.

Mike

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:21:41 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Re: D&RGW #50 Suspension



Curtis,

The bonus for going to the extra work is that the 3-point suspension really works. The 1:8 scale #50 and the 1:3 scale Plymouth never derailed (except when the idiot engineer ran through an un-aligned 3-way stub switch). With the Plymouth that meant 30 minutes of prying and blocking and profuse swearing.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:30:56 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: I've got some plans ready ...



Roy -

Como Roundhouse Products has all the metal castings you need to build the gondola, and journal boxes, bolsters etc. for arch bar and Andrews trucks.

Roll Models is a good source for hydraulic drive units already matched to 7-1/2 modelers needs www.rmirailworks.com.

Northern Tool & Equipment (formerly Northern Hydraulics) is a very good source if you know what you need already www.northerntool.com.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:37:37 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: D&RGW #50 Suspension



I have Davenport drawing #D-30710, 23"x 32.5" Spring Rigging & Assembly showing the equalization levers in detail for anyone interested in copies. Note that his is a large format drawing and requires a mailing tube.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhous Products

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:48:24 -0400

From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Re: I've got some plans ready ...

.. .Bailey Hydraulics has good prices, and, they have the much sought after for riding scale model diesels, Eaton 700 hydrostatic trainsmissions.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:45:28 +0200
From: "Josef Wagner"

Subject: Re: Re: I've got some plans ready ...



looks interesting but there is something absolutely wrong ... link flluid power and Hydraulic Hydrostatic Transmissions Eaton
this link failed can you pls be of assistance?
regards
josef wagner, vienna, austria

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:27:02 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Re: I've got some plans ready ...



Josef,

Look at http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/pdf/653.pdf and also http://www.baileynet.com/baileynet/deptBrowse.asp?dept_id=61&brand=70
Regards,

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:49:52 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: I've got some plans ready ...



http://www.baileyonline.com/baileynet/deptBrowse.asp?dept_id=61&brand=70

Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:54:50 EDT
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 612



I am rebuilding the 50s transmission right now

Ray Mueller

Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:42:06 -0400
From: rhartsoe

Subject: Molly class



Can anyone tell me where I can find dimensional drawings with measurements or plans for the Molly class of engine like the 2-8-0 #433 in Abington, Va or the #475 in Strasburg, Pa? I only need the outside scale dimensions.

Robert Hartsoe in NC

Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:27:25 EDT
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 613



I would like a copy,how much? Ray

Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:51:41 -0500
From: "Thomas"

Subject: Re: Molly class



I have been told that the Library of Congress has this type of stuff, but I can not tell you how to make a search for them. One of our member at MRM found a profile print with all dimensions of the locomotive we are rebuilding, I will check with him the next time I see him and get the details of where to look. Thomas

Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:27:35 -0500
From: "Clint D"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 613



Me to,
Clint D

Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:13:35 -0700
From: "Richard Canaday"

Subject: Coupler Height



Good Day to All,

I'm new to 2.5" Scale. What is the coupler height standard? Is this measurement from the top of the rail? I can't seem to find IBLS standards for 2.5". Do they Exist?

Richard Canaday[HW1]