7+-NGM-logo The

7-Plus-NGM Digest September 2003

Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:16:15 -0000
From: "bocamikey"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Discussion Group

Did "Live Steam" ever do a series on the Chloe ???
Iron Nut

Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:16:37 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Alan Shifley's Inaugural Meet Pixs

Saturday the 30th Of August 2003 Alan Shifley held an inaugural meet for his "Willamette & Kings Valley Railroad". This 98% complete track is very fun & interesting to operate on. On his 8 acres, Alan has built a double loop railway with block signals. These block signals when completed will allow easy & safe operations in both directions on a single track main. I would like to thank Alan & his wife Carol for having us all to their enjoyable get together. Check out the pixs, QT movies, & track plan of Alan's superb track!



Dan Morris

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:55:25 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: "Athelstan" - more photos

Evening all,

I thought it about time to add some more photo's of "Athelstan" to the files section (Files\Athelstan).

The latest batch shows the footplate and running plate framing being added (last week), as well as a shot showing the loco wired for air (2nd Aug). This shot was taken on day four (out of 5) when the loco was tested in full forward and full reverse gear and allowed to run up to about 3mph (for Athelstan this equals 120 rpm). Over the five days about 8 hours running-in was achieved, plus various tinkering and minor adjustments to the motion. Overall this exercise was well worth it. The loco is now stripped to frames for final painting of motion, wheels and anything bolted to the frames (ie smokebox, footplating etc). The loco is scheduled to be reassembled and returned to earth during the week of 15 September when the tender frames will also be welded up.

The final new photo shows Athelstan in company with the other new build project at the Moors Valley: "Thor", a pacific based on various Indian railways designs. Despite the lack of motion at present Thor is in an advanced state of construction and will probably be in steam ahead of Athelstan, maybe by Christmas.

As usual your comments are welcomed.

Happy steaming,


Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 23:23:01 -0300
From: "Oliver T."

Subject: Couplers...Possibly Off-Topic Inquiry...

Hi Group,
Hope this isn't too far off topic..if someone knows of a Group better suited to answer my question, please let me know.
I'm in the process of mulling over the design of a coupler, and whilst researching the Web, came across a page entitled:
By Simon Townsend, reproduced from Journal Issue 40.'

(URL: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~stownsen/journals/hyjnl4.htm)

The text is quite informative and constantly refers to the images, but the images won't load...!
I'm using Internet Explorer and have checked all the settings to no avail.

Does anyone know how to access these pictures, or know of another site where the pictures can be found? The different designs sound quite intriguing, but without the images...Aarrgh!

Oliver T.
Frustrated, NB

Date: 05 Sep 2003 22:08:02 -0400
From: James Keith

Subject: Re: Couplers...Possibly Off-Topic Inquiry...

Hi Oliver:
One way might be to order the magazine (looks like about 6.25). Do you think the absence of images may be intentional???

I put "HEYWOOD SOCIETY JOURNAL" into google to get the home page. Then clicked on 'Sample Articles'. Then searched for 'coupling' to find the issue of the magazine (which is #40). Back to 'Prices and Ordering' reveals the amount given above (for the US).

Let us know what you learn.

Jim Keith

Date: 05 Sep 2003 23:34:52 -0400
From: James Keith

Subject: Re: Couplers...Possibly Off-Topic Inquiry...

Re: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~stownsen/journals/hyjnl4.htm
and: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~stownsen/journals/hyjnl1.htm

Sorry that my clock was off and (on my computer) my reply is listed before your query.

Also, my message should have read: click on 'Issues Available', rather than 'Sample Articles'. Then search for 'coupling'.

Jim K

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 01:39:46 -0000
From: "steam_coyote"

Subject: For Sale - RMI 25 Ton Davenport Switcher

Roll Models Inc. 2.5" scale 7.5" gauge 25 ton Davenport swticher with 9.0 HP Honda, electric start and hydrostatic drive. Bought (3) years ago as kit and it is all together except for some minor details, the locomotive has never been run. Comes with (2) Plumb Creek Phlatt cars.Please email me at cdhunter@centurytel.net if you want more information or pictures.
Located in North Bend, WA
$6000 OBO, buyer responsible for shipping costs.

Thank you,
C. D. Hunter

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:15:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rich Francis

Subject: Re: For Sale - RMI 25 Ton Davenport Switcher


I am interested and would like pictures. Please send them to my office address frank(at)hufferdnetworks.com

Thank you

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:13:08 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Railfan Radio Link (Off Subject)

I have found a couple of very interesting sites to listen to RR activities in the Seattle area and other places too. I listen to them with my 2 meter ham rig, but these you can hear on your computer.



Dan Morris

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:31:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Grinnell

Subject: Playing with trains

Good Day,

This member just joined and plays with 71/2" and 16" both gauges for 2 foot models of Maine trains. Just had to sign on and see what others are 'playing' with.

Happy Modeling

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:30:01 -0000
From: "Ronald"

Subject: a newbie

why a newbie??
Ok my name is Ronald Biese
Born Berlin 56
studied UK
now in France... a love affair
only 12 miles from the Atlantic
North-east of Bordeaux
anyway ..way too long to paddle over

two 7 1/4 steamers
and found the groovy track

What wood to use for the sleepers ??
please tell me

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:23:26 -0500
From: "Tom Casper"

Subject: Allen's message

Hello Alan, are you over seas? I haven't heard of much in the US in 16 in. patterned after the 2ft stuff. The SR&CL Ry follows the 2fts in 7 1/2 . Our web site is at srclry.com. There are a few builders in 3 3/4 scale here in the US.

Tom Casper

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:02:31 -0700
From: "William J. Stewart"

Subject: Re: a newbie

Sleepers, or Ties as we call them in the USA, can be made from many different materials depending on the conditions of intended use. If you want long service life in relatively wet areas, I suggest recycled plastic as it will not rot in the ground. Over here it is extruded by some recycling plants both as unreinforced plastic and with reinforcing inclusions, such as glass fibers or similar.
As to wood, I would suggest using material treated for direct contact with wet ground, such as the treated "mud Sill" material used in construction. The best wood would be of the "hardwood" group but even pine or other "softwood" can be used if properly treated.
Untreated wood in contact with the ground, especially wet ground, will disintegrate quickly and is NOT recommended for anything to be placed for more than a few months. For additional stability in the laid track, a "sleeper" made from section of about 38 mm by 88 mm (near equivalent to finished "2x4") or slightly larger and of scaled length should be placed with the narrow face up, and the rail attached with tie plates (or chairs) and screws. With the plastic ties you definitely should pilot drill for the screws.
I hope this is useful to you,
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart

Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 05:59:51 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: SA Steam Meet

Bruce Douglas has posted more photo's here www.steamtrains.co.za/pmes of their big meet at Pietermaritzburg, South Africa in early August

Of interest is the Double header with the D.H.R. Garratt inside running in reverse!


Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 09:11:36 -0700
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Re: Digest Number 857


Just for the sake of discussion . . . and I am not an expert by any means, but I have overheard another school of thought on treated woods .
. . many folks prefer the softer woods because there is a much deeper penetration of the preservative chemicals. A favorite wood for this Southern Yellow Pine. Using it some pressure treatment plants will guarantee 100% penetration, while with some hardwoods they will guarantee 10% penetration or less.

I've heard comments about creosoted ties that the best arrangement is to use wood just strong enough to hold the creosote together.

All the Best,

The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:05:15 -0700
From: "William J. Stewart"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 857

Dear Greg,
I do not know for sure what method of treatment is being used as it depends upon the local regulations to a great extent, example: years ago we could treat our own ties by evacuating a chamber to draw out the moisture then filling with Creosote by allowing it to be drawn in by the vacuum. We then pulled partial vacuum and refilled several times to assure that all the ties were completely immersed in the Creosote and let them sit for a week or two. We then drained the remaining Creosote back into holding tanks, opened the chamber and removed the tie stacks to a drainage rack which again caught the left over Creosote and returned it to the holding tank.
However, California passed regulations that stopped us form doing this any more, and in fact forced all Creosote treatment out of the area. Now California is proposing to ban Chromate Copper Arsenate (CCA) as a treatment also. I guess wood survival in construction is not as important as protecting the termites and fungus that destroys the wood. As to the depth of penetration, yes dense hardwood is not penetrated as deeply as typical softwood.
However, as I understand that the commercial treatment specifications, using heat, pretreatment evacuation, and then pressure and time treatment, a treatment depth of 1 and 1/2 inches is typical in Hardwood. This is not full depth in a 4x4 or larger but in a 2x4 or 1x?? it results in full depth penetration. Please try a 2x4 treated with CCA and sold for use as construction "Mud Sill" material. I believe, from my own experience, that you will find 100% penetration, with a faint greenish tint all the way through the plank. Please use a mask when sawing as the dust contains CCA and should not be breathed nor left in contact with the skin.
You must prepare the scale ties for treatment by stacking them with spacers, banding, enclosing them in chicken wire and tying the package onto a pallet for handling by the commercial treatment plant. You most also tell the plant the type of wood and specify that you want the treatment to penetrate full depth. They will probably need to load your ties into the retort with a batch of heavy timber or poles to get the pressure time schedule long enough to get full depth treatment for your ties.
At LALS original track was laid with cut down 2x4 that was almost square in cross section, dipped in used motor oil, and then more used motor oil was poured on the finished track about every 6 months. the Decomposed Granite ballast eventually formed an asphalt surface and shed water but each tie was in a 'bathtub of the same water drainage blocking asphalt so rotted eventually but slowly due to concentrations of metals added from the old motor oil.
LALS stopped using used motor oil years ago and began trials with other tie types and treatments, finally settling upon using recycled plastic as being the most environmentally friendly and with the potential of long service life. LALS also stopped using Extruded Aluminum Alloy Rail for main lines due to rapid wear, and is now using Steel Alloy Rail, which seems to last much better under our traffic load.
I hope this is of use to you.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:07:22 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: FW: Use of LED's for Loco Headlights

Thought this might be useful. I've also added it to the technical articles section of www.livesteaming.com for future reference.

Bruce Wilson has come up with some bright LEDs for headlights . Other sizes are available.

These are bright enough to give a good reflective light for the driver and are easily seen by bystanders.

Advantages, no heat to speak of, so plastic lens work, low current drain and long life.

Some details of the white LED lamp (headlight)

Luxeon Star/O part number LXHL-NW98

lens diameter 21.5 mm = 0.846"

square base 25mm x 25mm = 0.984" x 0.984"

overall height 15.7 mm = 0.618"

max current @ 25 degrees C (80 degrees F) = 0.35 Amps

max temp 75 C (plastic lens) = 170 degrees F

max current at max temp (75 degC) = 0.25 Amps

25 lumens output @ 1 watt input (similar to 2 watt halogen lamp if you could find one)

half-power beam angle approx 10 degrees

about $US 15 each


Distributed by Future Electronics buy online from www.futureelectronics.com


LEDs require constant current drive.

To power one white Luxeon LED from approx 12 volts, use a 33 ohm 5 watt resistor in series
To power two white Luxeon LEDs in series from approx 12 volts, use a 22 ohm 5 watt resistor in series
To power three white Luxeon LED in series from approx 12 volts, use a 10 ohm 2 watt resistor in series

Or use LM317 three-terminal adjustable regulator as a constant current source (current sense resistor = 4.7 ohm 1/2 watt)


Bruce Wilson, BCSME.

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:02:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul Goodjohn

Subject: For sale: RMI 35 ton 0-4-0

Since Mr Hunter has piqued folks interest, I thought I'd have a go :)

This is a great running engine (as it should be - it's only got about 8 hours use from new) with 2 motors, and a controller. It has 2 65AH electric wheelchair batteries and will pull pretty much anything.

The loco's set up for 7 1/2" gauge, but can be changed to 7 1/4" by repositioning the circlips on the axles.

You can see the loco on Roll Model's owners circle site here:

< A HREF="http://www.rmirailworks.com/Goodjohn.html"> http://www.rmirailworks.com/Goodjohn.html

Roll models want $4240 for the kit version of this loco, or $4995 RTR, but I'm only asking $3500 - what a bargain!

E-mail me for more information

Paul Goodjohn.

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:17:18 -0700
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: [ad] GSQ Convention 2003 Update

The Grand Scales Quarterly Convention 2003 web site has been updated with the latest information.

Speakers not previously listed are L. Andrew Jugle speaking on the history of MTC (builders of the G-12 and G-16), Frank Allen (builder of the 15" gauge 4-4-0 Sonoma) on fabrication vs. casting, Ed Yungling on building at 12" Shay and rebuilding the 15" Hudson at Traintown, Paul Boschan (Boschan Boiler and Restoration) on boiler construction and maintenance, Jack Bodenman (custom builder) on sheet metal forming, Jack Sessums (Sessums Engineering special effects co.) on alternative construction methods and materials . . . . and many more.


We couldn't be more pleased that the Redwood Valley Railway is bringing their 15" gauge, 5" scale 4-6-0 No.11 the Sequoia. It is even more exciting that they have offered to let the public run her. This will be a once-in-a-lifetime treat for those who avail themselves of the opportunity. Also available to run are GSP&P 2-8-0 No. 13, H&W Davenport No.57, and the 0-4-0 No. 18 (all 15" gauge, 5" scale).


There will be at least six Grand Scale steamers and six other engines (diesels, rail trucks, etc). running that weekend. Among them will be Jack Sessums' 15" gauge Shay and "work Goose" No.6, the Redwood Valley No.11, one of Don Micheletti's 15" Cagneys, George Whitehill's 12" Ottaway steamer, Rod Plaisted's 15" speeders and trolley, and John Ray's 15" railtruck.

So far there are registrants from all over the Western US, New York, Florida, the Midwest, England, Honduras, and Mauritius signed up to attend.

We hope you'll be able to make it as well. It's going to be a great party.

The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 05:15:08 -0000
From: "Alan Grinnell"

Subject: Re: Allen's message

Hi Tom,
I tried to write this once and it got blown away. Am in Calif. and got bit by the two foot bug when five or six years old at Edaville; that was only 25 miles or so from home at that time. Will check out your srcl web site.


Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:50:33 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Great time at S&S Fall meet

Hi all,

I have posted several photos from the Fall meet today at Farmington Utah. Of interest was a 2.5" scale Uintah Valley Mallet (actually a simple articulated). The owner actually let me operate the behemoth, and it was a pleasure to run. It was steady as a rock, tracked extremely well, and had more power than anyone operating on 7.5" gauge track would ever need. It was poetry in motion.

Roy Stevens

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:03:48 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: fire door types

Arno:You got me! And my back already hurts.

Cam Brown

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:38:45 EDT
From: radixauto@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: fire door types

David Moore sells fire box doors. His web site is at http://members.aol.com/dmprototypes
Dave S.

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:40:17 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Car sheathing


This list has been pretty dead as late, is everyone out playing trains?
Anyway, I was wondering if there is any readily available product (read Home Depot, Lowes) that is right for simulating wood sheathing? If not, is there an easy way to make it? I'm planning on building a caboose, and would like to have it generally represent a DRGW type III shorty.

Roy Stevens

Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:05:20 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Car sheathing


One of many options is to use a really fine grained plywood and a router to make the grooves. I have seen this done with good success. Contact a good cabinet shop and get the multiple layer plywood which is stronger and more durable.

Jim Hoback
Sonora, CA

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:39:05 +0100
From: Michael Adams

Subject: Re: Car sheathing

I used a Dremel with a router attachment to make the grooves using a round nosed cutter.You also need to make up a simple guide to get the correct spacing.

Mike Adams

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:12:22 -0700
From: "Don Dickens"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 864

I'm writing to inform everyone on this list that Don Dickens, my father, passed away this morning. I'm not certain to what extent he was involved on this mailing list, but I know he's been a subscriber and occasional participant for a while and I wanted everyone to be aware. I will be removing his address from the list after sending this message. If you would like to contact our family for some reason, you may e-mail me at stinger31@excite.com.

Thanks, and I apologize for the suddenness of this message.

Evan Dickens

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:37:35 -0500
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Car sheathing

Best way I have found is to use 1/2" thick cabinet grade of plywood grooved on a table saw. Set the table saw blade at a 45 degree angle and the height of the blade very shallow, about 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. Set the saw fence and slide the plywood accross the blade. Move the fence the width of the board you are simulating and do it again, over and over. Advantage over the router is that a router can leave a very small burr at the center of the groove where the bit is actually not rotating.

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:07:35 -0700
From: "William J. Stewart"

Subject: Re: Car sheathing

Dear Mr. Hoback and Mr. Stevens,
Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. provides mail order service to aircraft homebuilders and has fine grain, thin laminae, voidless plywood for sale. There are other such suppliers throoughout the country. Perhaps the basswood laminae plywood would make a good siding beginning for grooving by yourself.
I hope this suggestion is of help.
Best regards,
William J. Stewart

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:53:58 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Don Dickens remembered

Dear Evan -

Please accept my personal condolences and those of Hubert Wetekamp (7+NGM Moderator) and all of those that knew or knew of your Dad. He was a great pioneer in the 7-1/2" gauge, 2-1/2" scale narrow gauge live steam hobby.

I had the privilege of meeting your Dad many years ago during a trip to Portland. He created the "Como Roundhouse Products" logo that is still in use today in my business. Don was a real leader in the early days of this very small and "narrow" branch of the live steam hobby.

I hope the fact that he was admired and will be remembered with fondness and respect will help to ease your and your family's feeling of loss. Don will live on in our hearts and minds for many years to come...

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:44:55 -0000
From: "jss165"

Subject: Saturated Steam

Wodering about the fate of this company. I have a catalog from them dated 1986 but the number listed is no longer in service and the company is listed in the yellow pages. They had a beautiful set of castings for a PRR e6, mostly in lost wax. If anyone knows what happened to the patterns and the like for these casting or the company in general i would love to know.

James Samonsky

Date: 27 Sep 2003 10:04:23 -0400
From: James Keith

Subject: Re: Saturated Steam -> PRR Atlantic

Since I haven't seen an answer to your query yet, I'll relate what I know.

I suggest you contact Small Parts Inc.
Phone: (800)220-4242
Web: www.smallparts.com
E-mail: parts@smallparts.com

A very nice photo of F Brian Gittins' model of the PRR E6s appears on the cover of their 2000 catalog, #20. And inside they have a full page describing the engine.

IIRC they had, at one time, a special catalog for E6s castings/materials, but I see no reference to it on their web site or in the 2000 catalog.

Hope this helps,
Jim Keith

Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 08:48:40 -0700 (PST)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Saturated Steam

Seems that somewhere along the line several years ago in Live Steam Mag I saw the engine that they were building for sale as a partially built engine cant say how long ago either and seems there was something in another mag about them stopping production of it also. From the info that I got from the company it was a museum quality model when done.