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7-Plus-NGM Digest September 2004

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:07:01 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: 4-4-0

Is this the same one that appeared on Ebay?

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 22:44:11 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Re: 4-4-0

I don't think so. Check out the pic in the photo section.

Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:37:13 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Alan Shifley's Mini Meet Pixs

I have just posted pixs from this past weekend at Alan Shifley's "Willamette & King's Valley Railroad". The weather was superb and there was a good group that showed up to ride the trains. Alan has recently block signaled the vast majority of his railroad allowing a safe and fun bi-directional run operation. Alan says there's a bit to go and the entire railroad will be signal controlled. Be sure to check out the map of this very enjoyable track. I truly enjoyed myself at the mini meet and plan on attending again next year.

Check out these pixs and more at Live Steaming In The Pacific Northwest http://www.sscom.org/pnwls.html


Dan Morris

Date: 02 Sep 2004 09:05:25 -0400
From: Fallenhunter

Subject: Train Mountian, anyone been there? Questions....

I know this is slightly off topic (well, some might say so).

Looking for information on traveling TO train mountian, it seems to be pretty far from a major city, thus a major airport....

Looking to fly in for the trianual meet in a year or two, so its not time critial or anything.

Basicly whats the closest airport you can get regular service and anyone know how to get from there to Train Mountian?


Dwayne Miller

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:19:16 -0400
From: "Thomas Knox"

Subject: RailDriver, a Division of P.I. Engineering

This is pretty interesting. I was researching my motor control for the free lance switcher I am building and ran across this control station. I talked to their engineer Tim and he says there is a module coming out soon the run DC powered trains. It is from the computer train simulator.


Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:19:08 -0000
From: "clanemrg"

Subject: Briggs boiler fuel

Howdy all:

In looking at various boiler designs, I've noticed that Briggs tend to be fueled by propane. Does anyone know of anyone using solid fuels, coal or wood with this design? I'd love to hear some Pros and Cons of using solid fuel in a Briggs.

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:36:11 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: RailDriver, a Division of P.I. Engineering

RailDriver is a good supplier in my book. I have bought all three Cyclopedai CD's they hav eout so far and am very pleased with the ScalePrint software that is included. It allows printing out images to whatever scale you want, based upon some particular known dimension in the file you select and enter the value for.I have printed out full size drawings of items by selecting 1:1 and then selecting a known dimensioned item in the file and entering the known dimension's value.
By loadin gth eCD into Hard Disk I speeded up access greatly and can 'reference' the files quickly when I have a question.
The price is reasonable, at $29.95 each, and they work.
ScalePrint seems to be able to work with any .jpg file, not jsut the ones from the Cyclopedias.
I have yet to try it on .bmp files or other photo formats.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 13:45:57 -0700

From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel


I believe there are more coal burning Briggs style boilers than any other fuel. Oz and the UK have the largest number of Briggs and launch type boilers.


Jim Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 19:55:07 EDT
From: tomeagles44@aol.com

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel


Keith Watson Loco Works and Foundry has 24" gauge 0-4-0ST with a 14" OD Briggs Boiler that he fires with coal.

His Website is http://users.bigpond.net.au/gabrep/wato/phoenix.html

Hope this helps!

Tom Eagles

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 23:56:10 -0000
From: "Willy Rowe"

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel

My 2-4-0 Lokie from Australia is coal fired. It steams very easily. I have had locos that had wet legs and I really could not notice anydifference in steaming. However I think if I had to replace the boiler in the future, well that is a hard call. I am a traditionalist and would probably make it a wet leg.


Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:29:58 -0700

From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Train Mountain, anyone been there? Questions....

TM is 25 miles north of Klamath Falls, Oregon near the small township of Chiloquin

You can fly commercially into K-Falls. Amtrak stops there too.

Rental cars are available locally in K-Falls. Hotel rooms are pretty scarce during the Triennial so book early, plenty of camping of site which is recommended.

You might want to consider flying into Portland or Sacramento and renting an RV to Camp on site.

Crater Lake, 20 miles to the North of TM may also be of interest.


Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 20:57:41 -0500
From: "David Hannah III"

Subject: Re: Train Mountian, anyone been there? Questions....


I live in Houston Texas and I've been going to TM for over 12 years. When I have flown in I have done it both ways thru Portland Oregon and Sacramento California on Southwest Airlines. The distance is about the same, little farther from California, and coming from Portland use can use Interstate 5 most the way to Hwy 58.

I don't recommend flying to Klamath Falls too expensive.

David Hannah, III

Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 00:06:08 -0400
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: [csrr] Cart before the horse

Well in this case it is the tank before the flat car...
That is today we were in Wal-Mart and found a remote control 1:6 scale WWII tank for sale. Well, that is close enough to 1:4.8 where you are not going to be able to tell the difference when using it for a flat car load.

So, we put it on top of the shopping cart (it was too big to fit in the cart!) and went home with it.
It is too cool! Real steel treads and runs just like the real thing.
It has sound, turn it on and the engine starts, drive and the sound changes, machine gun sounds, turret turning sounds as the turret turns. Also, the main gun shoots a little plastic missile about 20'.

Yes, I had fun with it. Now I have to build a flat car to put it on...

I don't know of a tank ever being shipping on a narrow gauge flat car, but it should make a cool looking realistic load.

Pat Turner, Pres. CSRR

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:33:24 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel

Hi Chris,

Regarding Briggs Boilers - I'm burning wood with a Briggs Boiler ......
with copper manifolds on each side of the fire box, instead of the traditional coil.

Also, the "original" briggs boiler was coal fired.

George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:11:53 -0700
From: "Hugh Smith"

Subject: Tube Roller

Ok. I downloaded the "5/8" Tube Roller" and I've got some questions. All the questions will reference the drawing so you might want to print a copy so you can follow along.
1) Has anyone built this roller to the print and used it?
2) The ROLLER SLOT in the ROLLER CAGE is 1.125 long and the ROLLER is 1.120 long for a .005 difference.
That's fine, however the ROLLER is .144 under the THRUST COLLAR, when assembled in the HEAD ASSEMBLY, which limits its expandability to .627. According to "Elliot Tool Technologies", a tube roller supplier, http://www.elliotttool.com/ttools1.htm, a .750 tube should be expanded in a .760 hole.
That allows for a 7% reduction in wall thickness.
The finished tube ID .639 which is .012 larger than the roller will expand.
Something needs adjustment in this area.
3) Assuming #2 is fixed, then the TAPER SPINDLE would be run all the way in to the straight part thereby yielding the maximum expansion.
What if you need to re-roll a tube to stop a leak?
Would you have multiple sets of rollers, with each set being .002 larger?
Or would you have multiple TAPER SPINDLEs, each being .002 larger in the straight area?
4) Other than preventing the HEAD ASSEMBLY from getting lost inside the tube, what is the purpose of the thrust collar?
5) What is the purpose of the SPACER?

Thanks in advance.
Hugh Smith

Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:43:42 +0100
From: "Andrew Walton"

Subject: Re: Tube Roller

Hi Hugh
I assume you are refering to a tube expander you can by them of the shelf in the uk i can give you more info

Andy Walton
Denver Light Railway
Locomotive Engineer

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 02:53:00 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Tube Roller

the "5/8" Tube Roller" as shown is for "5/8 copper water tubing". That's an American trade name for a class of plumbing material that is available in various wall thicknesses. The OD is very close or exactly 0.750"

Do not confuse this with "refrigeration copper tube" or "copper pipe" sizes or commercial steel boiler tubing sizes. All different trade types, specs and purposes.

This roller will only allow correct expansion with the "type K wall" thickness (0.049").
The tube plate hole can be as much as 0.010" oversize.
The spacer length is to be made according to your tube plate thickness to allow the rollers to protrude no more than about 1/16" beyond the tube plate inside wall.
The collar is slotted internally to allow the rollers to move outward without interference.
Also, the device is self feeding when turned CW. The collar is the depth stop.
Release is by a turn CCW.
Ream all plate holes and polish with a 1" flap wheel before inserting tubes. Allow 1/16" extra at each end.
Roll the tube until the torque just becomes noticeably harder to turn. No more.
At this point, the spindle will be nearing the parallel area, but should not pass thru.
If it does, the large end is too small.
Dimensions can be changed to suit other types and sizes of tube as needed.
This roller has been used many times here and by others with no complaints.
BTW. Be aware that copper tubes in a steel boiler, after several firings, WILL LEAK, if pressurized with cold water. This quite normal, natural, physically correct and avoided by using warm water at hydro.
Are we happy now? :-))

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:07:06 -0600
From: "Chris Lane"

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel


Thanks for all your responses, a follow up question if I may.

Lack of wet leg eliminates the traditional need for a blow down valve, although it would still seem to be good practice. The boiler on the Narrow Gauge Builders site has no mention of one so: For those who operate Briggs boilers, do you have a blow down and if so, physically where have you located it on the boiler?

Thanks again for everyone's time.

Chris Lane

Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:37:44 -0700
From: "Hugh Smith"

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel


The boiler type does NOT eliminate the need for a blow down, only where you place it.
Your still going to get floatsome and pieces, especially on a new boiler, that need to be removed.
Following Keith Watsons design it is placed at the lowest point of the boiler shell. What I did was to take a 2" to 3/4" high pressure steel reducing fitting, grind the 2" end to fit the shell contour, and weld it on.
This creates a small settling sump to collect the debris and provides a standard 3/4" outlet to direct it where ever.

Briggs boilers are simple to build and steam great.
The only problem I've had with mine is that with the oil burner in the front wall of the fire box, the flame tended to turn 180 and go up the flues without much heating of the crown sheet.
A simple SS arch fixed that problem.
That problem is not related to boiler type as much as it is to burner placement.
A propane burner in the bottom or coal would eliminate the problem totally.

Happy steamin'


Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:49:47 -0600
From: "Chris Lane"

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel

Makes all the sense in the world. On regular boilers of course the mud ring is the low point, I couldn't grasp how to figure the low point on a straight shell Briggs boiler. Building a small sump is quite clever, and you only need one blow down valve.

Chris Lane

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 11:04:35 -0700
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel

Hi Chris,

I mentioned that I have copper manifolds down each side of the firebox, the bottom line on each (which is about 2 " lower that the lowest point in the boiler) has a blow down valve on it. From the outside of the boiler, it looks completely conventional.

I have dummy sides to the firebox that have rivits (to simulate stay heads), and with the blow downs mounted to (through) the sides, the boiler looks so "proper", when I had a hydro test by the _Wasghington State Boiler Inspector_, he carefully looked at the rivits (thinking they were stays) looking for leaks.

George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 19:49:56 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: [csrr] Cart before the horse

Re: Tank as a NG load.
Just remember to build the flat to fit the scaled prototype tank weight.
It would look funny to have a Tank on a light duty wood frame truss rodded flat with four MCB"A" axles (15,000lbs each rated.
The old WWII Stuart light tank weighed around 5 tons, but the Sherman was a medium tank which was much heavier.
Perhaps the packaging that was with the RC tank listed the prototype data?
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 23:48:19 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Re: Briggs boiler fuel

The Briggs and Modified Briggs boilers on the Narrow Gauge Builders site, do have blow down valves.
They are located at the bottom of the boiler.

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 21:00:51 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: (Forwarded) Yahoo is making plans to introduce a premium Yahoo Groups service

It took me a good 15 minutes to fill the survey (did not reply to all) but this seems to be the price we have to pay to keep Yahoogroups as is, and free.

The synopsis by the original poster appears to have been taken from the individual questions.

Please make the effort, it may be worth it in the long run.

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 21:40:02 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: (Forwarded) Yahoo is making plans to introduce a premium Yahoo Groups service

this survey reads like it's for list owners and admins. Not plain members.
Several ? can't be answered by members. True?

Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:52:20 -0000
From: "William Van Lenten"

Subject: Re: (Forwarded) Yahoo is making plans to introduce a premium Yahoo Groups servic

Rich, this is for all yahoo users. It will not only cost we owners of groups, but they want the owners to charge via yahoo for anyone useing the groups. When a person joins a group, they want the owner to put a user collection page up, so you will have to pay a yearly fee (to yahoo) to use thier groups sites. The more sites you join, the more they charge. We like it as it is. We do not want to pay for anything. and we don't want to cut back on usage either.

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:40:24 -0400
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: (Forwarded) Yahoo is making plans to introduce a premium Yahoo Groups service

I don't think so, Rich.
Just answer the ones the keep it free.

I did ignore the ones which only allowed the selection of how much.

Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:50:56 -0400
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: RE: Re: [csrr] Cart before the horse

It is a M5 Stuart.

Here is a link to one for sale on eBay (I did not pay that much at Wal-Mart, but I could not find it on the Wal-Mart web site):

and here is the link to the company that makes it:


Each of the Series 42 Cadillac engines could develop 220hp at 3,400rpm. The engine was an 8-cylinder, 4-cycle, 90-degree V design that was water-cooled and fed with 80 octane gasoline. This engine is shown removed from the tank and supported on wood blocks. The Cadillac engine used conventional electric starters with an automatic choke on each carb for easier starts. The two synchronized engines together could push the combat loaded 33,500lb M5A1 along at a maximum road speed of around 36mph (governed) and, with the small 89 gallon gas tanks, the AFV had a cruising radius of a bit less than 100 miles.

All together the M5A1 carried 147 rounds of main gun ammo(37mm), 720 rounds for the Thompson or Sten SMG, and 6,750 rounds of .30 cal for the Brownings (hull and anti-aircraft on turret) MGs and 12 hand grenades.

Here is the link I got this info from:

I figure it was shipped empty and would be about 15tons which would be within the limits for just about any narrow gauge flat car. I am glad you brought it up though as now I know for sure.

Pat Turner, Pres. CSRR

Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 08:43:01 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Steam loco's for sale

Steam loco's for sale, several gages, Java and Cuba.



Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 23:38:10 +0200
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: Re: (Forwarded) Yahoo is making plans to introduce a premium Yahoo Groups service

Hello all,

I got this information regarding the planned changes through another group, I'm a member.

Interesting, I didn't get information from Yahoo over the mailing-list, to which every group-owner is added.

I filled out all the questions, but left blank that questions regarding features, I or we should have to pay for.

Although they started this survey to get more informations, I think, they will be downgrading the free parts like mail-storage and file/photo-storage, wether the survey will get a positive or negative result regarding the fees.

For our group, I don't think, this will be a problem, because I store every mail in our mail-archive under www.7-plus-ngm.org and also since a long time the uploaded files and photos.

Yes, I pay for the domain, but that's not as much as yahoo wants for their premium-service. And the storage-space is part of my main-domain www.wetekamp.de - I have 100 MByte their and through my DSL-account another 100 MByte -.

Have a nice labor-day-weekend.

Your moderator

Hubert from Germany

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 08:37:47 -0700
From: Trevor Heath


A significant photo essay by Paul Pavlinovich on the first public train to run on the Puffing Billy Railway in Australia using the newly commissioned G42 Garratt.

Some excellent cab detail shots for modelers are included.



PS Be sure you have captured the whole URL (ending in .html)

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:24:00 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re:


Not only are there lots of detail shots, Paul's photography is great and well presented.
I started with shot one and ran the slide show. He sure runs a great web page service kind of like someone else I know. See you at supper on Friday the 17th?
I get off work at 7:00 pm.

kind regards

Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:55:39 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: V.I.M.E. Steam Threshing Meet

Hi Dennis,

Yes we will be over for the V.I.M.E. Steam Threshing meet on Sept 18th and 19th.

We intend to travel over on the M.V. Coho on Friday evening the 17th so should be in town by 7 pm.

Been working on the King: New grate with more air space, "tweaked" the blast pipe, new high pressure injector. The two "oil" lamps on the front signifying an express train are now illuminated with LED's powered by a 9V transistor battery hidden behind the pilot beam. Have also fitted a wireless speedometer/Odometer which is hidden in the tender toolbox.

Work on the Garratt continues with all the brake rigging now complete and fitted.

We are also rebuilding a 1985 built EMD FP-45 Gas-Hydraulic 1.6" Scale into a Battery Electric with sound system for Janet.
It will be painted in Canadian Pacific Heritage colors of Grey and Maroon.

You will not see it until next year though as it is 10 feet long and will not fit in the trailer so we will have to sort that out. Which we have to do anyway to transport the Garratt which is 14 feet long.

Hope to see you and some of the almost 400 other members of this group there.



Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 23:02:00 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: RE: V.I.M.E. Steam Threshing Meet


I just got out of the Saturday shift so i will be on site both days for the meet. If you need accommodation you are welcome to stay with us at Chez Denise. :o) I have some video for you and hopefully i will get to shoot a bunch of stuff for a DVD promotion for the club. I'm looking forward to just visiting with everyone during the meet and hopefully getting to meet with you and Janet. It would be great to see some of the list members at V.I.M.E. functions at any time. See you on the 17th.

kind regards

Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:00:07 -0000
From: "thesyndicate88"

Subject: Specs for RMI LinkPin Plates.

Hello Group,

Does anyone have a RMI Link/Pin plate that they could snap some dimensions off of? This would be the cast piece that bolts to the end beam of the engine or car. Overall dimensions plus the bolt pattern would be very helpful!


Robert M.

Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:58:07 -0500
From: "Fred Rorex"

Subject: RE: Specs for RMI LinkPin Plates.

Are you talking about the read spreader/pilot plate? If so, Paul just sent out some drawings to update the binder which include the rear plate with dimensions. You should be able to get copies from RMI or I can try an help you out.


Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:41:12 -0000
From: "thesyndicate88"

Subject: Re: Specs for RMI LinkPin Plates.

Hello Fred,

I am actually looking for the Cast piece that bolts to the pilot plate. The pilot plate would have the correct bolt pattern but the dimensions of the cast block are what I'm after.

Thanks for the help!

Robert M.

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:34:12 -0500
From: "Fred Rorex"

Subject: RE: Re: Specs for RMI LinkPin Plates.

email me off line at fr-in-tx@austin.rr.com


Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 00:17:52 -0000
From: "Willy Rowe"

Subject: Re: Specs for RMI LinkPin Plates.

Hey Ferd..... (inside joke frm chaski bbs)

If you want I can email you a pic of the "Pilot Block"

Otherwise how are those copies comming?


Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: paul garin



Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:37:08 -0500
From: "Fred Rorex"


Told ya' :-)

Paul is a good guy. A;ways done right by me and then some.


Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:35:25 -0000
From: "ncngrr"

Subject: Milling Machine Advice

I'm looking to buy a milling machine to use in the building of 2-1/2" and 3-3/4" scale equipment. I don't want to spend more than I need to for more machine than I need (or will use), but I also don't want to spend to little on a machine too small and forever be wishing that I bought the next size up. I'm thinking a 9x49 machine will overwhelm my garage/workshop and is probably more than I need. On the other hand, I'm guessing that a mill/drill might be too small.



Colorado Springs

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:13:59 -0700
From: Geoff Kail

Subject: Re: Milling Machine Advice

Overwhelm your shop. The rigidly will pay off in your parts and accuracy..

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:26:27 -0400
From: "LR-N"

Subject: RE: Milling Machine Advice

9 x 49 - Yes

Mill-drill - NO!

The bigger and more rigid the machine the better... Love to have a big old Cincinnati Mill, because sometimes the 12 x 42 Bridgeport isn't quite up to the task for large scale live steaming.


Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:24:19 +0200
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: (Fwd) Lucky y loco drawings.

Date sent: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:55:52 +0100
From: "Bruce Trafford"
Subject: Lucky y loco drawings.

Hi Hubert.
I have just put a set of drawings for Don Youngs Lucky 7 on ebay.co.uk.
This may be of interest to some of your circle.
regards Bruce (Sorry to spam you)

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:06:18 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Milling Machine Advice

Scott I just up-graded to a 10''X54'' and now have my variable speed 9''X49'' EX-CELL-O machine with rotary converter I was considering selling to make room in my shop. In fact if you want the new machine I will discount it a bit and keep the old one as I bought the new one for the 36'' of x travel for a job that I should have done a little extra set up work and been done with it. Dont skimp on size, I over bought on my lathe and mill and am glad I did as the extra mass holds tolerances much more closer. I will try to attach a picture of the mill. A picture of the new mill is on my web page.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:47:18 -0000
From: "vrsculptor"

Subject: Leaf Springs

I bought Kozo's A3 switcher book and was looking at the 1.5 scale version. He includes some drawings of leaf springs for the engine but doesn't say much about them. He suggests .5 inch wide.
Any suggestions on leaf thickness and material?


Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 12:14:55 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: RE: Milling Machine Advice

Sort of on topic.................. My dentist has a computer driven mill about the size of the micro mills used by the "tweezer gaugers" in our hobby. The mill makes crowns for him. The computer/scanner/mill package was $100k. Pretty neat machine with enclosure cabinet and flood cooling. The dentist just attended a one week course on operation of the mill and the class was $3000. Small wonder my dental bill is huge. :-)

James Hoback
Sonora, California

Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:35:25 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Henry Todaro of Omaha, Texas

Does anyone know of this Guy?


Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:04:36 +0200
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: (Fwd) Lucky 7 plans

------- Forwarded message follows -------
Date sent: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:28:33 EDT
From: GengH@aol.com
Subject: Lucky 7 plans

I have the whole series of Don Young articles in Live Steam magazine for sale. They would be about $100 US plus postage for about 15 pounds, 7 or 8 Kg.
George Hoke
Bellevue, Washington state, USA
------- End of forwarded message -------

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:22:37 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Henry Todaro of Omaha, Texas

He was a member of the Southwestern Live Steamers here in Texas but hasn't been to a meet in years since his Todaro's Lakawana Locomotive Works was closed.
Last I heard of he was working for Hulchers. I have been in need of contacting him as he bought a 2-8-2 mikado built by Marshall Phillips and I want to track it down as it was Marshall's last steamer and I want to buy it back and keep it in the family. What kind of info are you looking for as this may spur me on to get busy in tracking down the mikado.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:47:01 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Electric motor help


Does anyone have a suggestion of a source for an electric motor, 24-36V DC PM 3-4 HP with a output shaft speed of approx. 1200 to 1500 rpm

Does not need to be new, location preferably in the USA

Thanks in advance


Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 07:23:49 -0700
From: "R.David S. CORMIE"

Subject: RE: Electric motor help

Hi Trevor

These folks are not cheap but have a quite large selection of motors.

The NPC Black Max is 3.8 hp @ 1500 rpm with an asking price of $265.00


Hope this helps

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:10:44 -0400
From: highiron@aol.com

Subject: Re: Henry Todaro of Omaha, Texas


This is the guy who owned the Lackawanna works and wound up with a piece of railroad supply only to default then be sued last I heard...year or 2 ago from another internet post he was sick with cancer


Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:02:08 -0400
From: "russ@kfalls.net"

Subject: RE: Electric motor help


I've used a DC motor out of a large bus that seems to be close to what you are looking for. It was used in the air conditioning/fan system. It should be available surplus as it was a common part then (10-12 years ago) so it still should be available. We used a very large relay to trigger the start of the motor and then a variac/to DC for a throttle. Worked quite well.


Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:59:06 -0500
From: Laurence Johnson

Subject: Re: Electric motor help

Take a look at www.surpluscenter.com as they have DC motors also

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 21:12:20 -0400

Subject: Big Emails

You know...these emails would be MUCH shorter if we didn't put the rules & regulations on the bottom of each email. By the time it gets to the digest version, its quite lengthy.

We all know the rules by now...



Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:19:06 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: GCR

A set of photo's from the Great Cockcrow Railway in London, England can be found here.


Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:27:23 EDT
From: GengH@aol.com

Subject: Sandy River #24

Dan Morris posted some photos I took of Dave Skagen's 7 1/2" gage Sandy River #24.
Log on to:
George Hoke

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:30:42 EDT
From: GengH@aol.com

Subject: Lucky 7

I have the entire set of Live Steam Magazine series of articles and drawings by Don Young for the Lucky 7 for sale.
George Hoke

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:01:02 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: Big Emails

you can opt to not recieve e-mails and just go to the web site. the most recent postings are listed or you can see all postings listed by month.
fred v

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:05:22 -0600
From: "Lewis, Woody"

Subject: How can I get my name removed from this e-mail list?

Hello 7-plus-NGM group,

How can I get my name removed from this e-mail list?

Woody Lewis

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:48:28 -0000
From: "Thomas H. Knox"

Subject: Electric Switcher

Is it approiate to post pictures my 6 week construction project of a 4 wheel chain driven electric 'diesel' on the narrow gae. It is a 2 1/2 model//
Tom Knox

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:05:57 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Electric Switcher

Hi Tom:

Yes, please do.

Mike Decker
Erskine Tramway 7-1/2"

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Keeline

Subject: Re: How can I get my name removed from this e-mail list?

A careful reading of the footer which appears at the bottom of every message in this group supplies the answer you seek:

In general, whatever method (and email address) is used to subscribe is also used to unsubscribe.
This is true of most email groups, not just Yahoo Groups.

James D. Keeline

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:29:30 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: How can I get my name removed from this e-mail list?


Thanks for posting your website information. By the way, that largish Dalmation Dog is actually a Harlequin Great Dane. I used to have one just like it but I think a smidgen bigger. :o) Looks like a great place to spend Sundays.

kind regards

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:17:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: James Keeline

Subject: Re: 4-wheel flatcars

I like your linked sites as well. The locomotive we work on is a 1907 Baldwin 0-4-0 fired by diesel #2. It runs on the first and third full weekends of most months except Jan-Apr when it is being cleaned and refurbished. We also have an 1896 trolley which we learned to operate this past Sunday. The loop is 36" gauge and goes around a nice park with old buildings, a large gazebo, etc. We work on the first Sunday of each month. My wife, Kim, is a conductor and I am learning the fireman position on the Baldwin. We both ran the Trolley.

I named the photo with the dog before asking my wife, who knows more of these things than I do. She reached the same conclusion that you did.

I suppose I should describe the project which led me to this group as a means of introduction. Perhaps some of the members will have some suggestions for us.

I am interested in finding short 4-wheel flatcars to serve as a foundation for wood-sided ore cars. My prototype is the Mine Train Thru Nature's Wonderland, a Disneyland attraction open from June 1956 through Jan 1977.

In particular, this drawing will give you an idea of the appearance of the train. The prototype used 30" rails so 7.5" gauge will be 3" scale (1/4). The scale length of the ore cars is 24" but your 29" may work.


This is one car which I found on a web search which might work.


I would like to get drawings for the 29" version of the car similar to what is on the web site for the 37" version.

The $525 price (+ shipping & couplers) is a little daunting for me since I may want seven or eight of these to reproduce the prototype. The man who is going to fabricate the dummy locomotive and electrically-powered tender (like the prototype) will probably make 3 or 4 of these. I don't know how many ore cars we will want in total but the cost is definitely a factor in that decision.

I was hoping to get one or two flat car kits for my wife and I to work on.
However, I was also hoping for something in the $200-$250 range apiece so we could devote funds and time into building the rest of the car. I figure that this could let us have something to take to the local layout while we work on the locomotive and tender. Some of the full-size flatcar kits are in the range I mention.

If you have suggestions for ways for us to safely economize on this, let me know.

Based on the size of the car, I think that we will have the rider sit on a cushion on top of the car and use some sort of foot peg arrangement. Again, having something to work with would make it possible to assess whether this is even feasible.

James D. Keeline
San Diego, CA

Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:30:27 +1200
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: Electric Switcher

Yes Please!

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:20:38 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Firebox Arch's


Does anyone have any tips on how to locate in place a stainless steel arch in a firebox already mounted on the frames?

Loco is my G.W.R. King, boiler is copper. I can feed the arch through the ash pan but cannot come up with a method to hold it in place without removing the boiler from the frames.

Thanks in advance.


Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:41:27 -0000
From: "Thomas H. Knox"

Subject: building flat bar switches

I am so very pleased with the discussion of groovy track. Now please let us hear about the building of flat bar switches. I will attempt the construction of my first switch this weekend. This group has been so helpful and enjoyable in it's discussions. I think the switch will be a welded product. I have milled a couple of 15 degree points on some 3/8 x 1 flatbar. Only takes a few minutes. My major concern is how to pivot the movable rail. Thanks

Tom Knox
Speed NC
140 ft track and growing!

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:44:31 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Auction in Wisconsin


October 23, 2004
Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin
See website for listing & photos
Larry Finley, Auctioneer 920-261-6184

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:25:00 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Firebox Arch's

1st suggestion Sky hook :o)

2nd. Is it possible to mount a couple of cast iron Hibachi style cooking grate holders along the sides and hold your arch up with those? If you worked it right your arch could be adjustable.

kind regards

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:51:20 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

Thomas, i've just added a photo to the photo section called "groovy turnout". we have built about 24 so far in both right and left hand.

this is for the track at Wales West.
we built a jig table 20 ft. long to make both handed swithes. we welded clip angles at appropriate spots to clamp the rail in place and then weld bottom plates to hold it together. we used a larger plate at the frog area. the points are made in a second jig. we cut all the parts for 10 switches at a time in one day then we can build a switch in 4 to 5 hours.

we also modified a drum sanding machine to mount 2 dado blades set at 7 9/16" and groove the ties 20 at a time. we take 8' 2x4's cut them to length on a radial saw and split them on a table saw then load them into the slotting machine. we can make about 600 ties/day.
good luck,
fred v

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:59:29 -0400
From: "Thomas Knox"

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

Thank you, we all appreciate you efforts.

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:43:17 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Arch support

Have you considered using 'legs'from the ashpan/grate area to the arch to position and hold it?
I hope you are using a high temperature rated alloy for the arch plate, typical Stainless Steel will not survive the normal firebox heat in an uncooled application. There are High Temperature resistant alloys that will, but you willneed to special order the piece and it will be more expensive.
The firebox environment is variable, with lower temperatures when 'idleing' and varing from Oxidizing to Reducing conditions depending on the firing.
Good luck in your application.
Best Regards,
Wiliam J. Stewart.

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:44:40 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

What did you mean by "15 Degree" points?
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:43:32 -0500
From: "Fred Rorex"

Subject: RE: Firebox Arch's

There was an article in the last 3 or 4 Live Steam mags that had an arch for a LE Atlantic. You should be able to scale up the technique that they used to work for what you have.

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:16:07 -0400
From: "TKONC"

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

I turned the vice in the mill 15 degrees and milled a sharp point.
Put two of those together and you get a 30 degree "point'


Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:40:27 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

Tom I have built several out of bar and if interested let me know, I built one today and have four more to deliver to a gentleman here in Texas. Here is a link to the first one that was built in pieces and torn apart later once the dimensions were in place to keep from having welded splices.


Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700
From: "R.David S. CORMIE"

Subject: RE: Re: building flat bar switches

We build all flat bar switches at VIME and have one #8 diamond for leads into the steaming bay. All work great but tend to have a 'hump' from the heat from welding.

Do you have the same problem? How do you fix this small annoyance or stop it from happening? It takes about 3 hours from start to finish on a switch including the BS and coffee. The diamond took a couple of days for one of the members to draw and make the jig and six hours cut and fit to make. Looks great and you can barely feel the transit. It was good fun to make.

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:27:22 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

That equates to a #5 frog.

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:26:16 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

I have never built just one start to finish to check my time and mill my frogs from solid 1''x 4'' steel bar and the 24'' points from either 1/2'' x 1'' solid bar or 1'' c channel. My type do take longer just from the frog standpoint but I have had them around my shop and drove over them all the time with loaded semi-trucks before selling my trucking company and going full time welding and machining for the hobby. I didn't grove my ties and used 1/4''x2'' flat bar welded to the bottom of the rail for a lifetime of fun and never any maintenance. My heavy 20' long jig may help that but try welding up-hill on the joints. Are your frogs made from rail? I have five to make now but made up twenty sets of points and extra items so I really dont know how long I have invested in each but I should be able to make one in a day start to stop but my time killer is the frogs. I usually just set it up and go about other things and just check on it when I can. I took about three hours to weld one up this afternoon but everything was already machined. This batch is all number 9 frogs and it takes almost 20' to make them look good and that may be why I dont get a hump in them as they are so long you are on them long before the frog. I will try to take a picture or two if anyone is interested.

Vance Nickerson