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7-Plus-NGM Digest October 2004

Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:07:20 -0400
From: "Thomas Knox"

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches


Please take several pictures. One picture is worth a lot "o" words.I Ihave decided to make me a jig table for the turn outs. I will put legs on it at waist high. I have a 20 ft frame in the back of the shop made from 2 x 2 tube already made up.

If I make a good turnout I will weld jig blocks to the "table" and the next one wil be a "groovy snap" ha ha (smiling ans I type) They are call me to go to work!

I am planning to run my new switcher at Apex this weekend I will tke pictures.

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 15:47:49 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: Firebox Archs; a solution

Trevor - I faced a very similar situation when trying to improve the combustion on C&S #10, which has a very long narrow firebox. The fire tended to burn well only in the center of the grate and there was a lot of carryover of cinders and ash into the flues and smoke box.

#10 had a one piece grate that was removed by disconnecting the tender and then pulling a spring loaded holder the allowed the rear end of the grate to drop down where it could be grasped by a pair of pliers and pulled out "backwards".

I removed the last one inch or so of the two outside grate bars at the front of the grate and then drilled a hole across the remaining bars in the center of the space provided. I then obtained a plate of 1/4" thick stainless which I cut to the same width as the grate and about the same length. One end of the plate was milled out to form a square cutout with two "legs" that were just the width of the gaps on either side of the grate where the bars had been removed.

These legs were then torch heated and forged into two round "eyes" that would receive a pin that would go through them and the previously drilled hole in the front of the remaining grate bars. Once I had this assembly working to my satisfaction, so that the "arch" could be laid out flat in front of the grate yet would hinge (rotate) up to form a 90 degree angle to the grate, I welded on a couple of stops to prevent it from folding any further over.

Next I again heated the plate with a torch in the center area and "blacksmith" it into a curved shape so that when installed it would curve rearwards away from the bottom row of flues so as not to block them and then continued upwards and back so that when in place in the firebox it cleared the underside of the crown sheet by about an inch. Once it was properly formed and assembled, the arch/grate assembly could then be inserted into the proper position by sliding the arch in first, then reaching in through the fire door and "tipping" it up, then pushing the grate in after it and allowing the arch to tip on over into it's proper 90 degree installed position.

This procedure was usually performed amidst much contortioning, body english, and some rather choice cuss words, but it worked. Removal was always done that next day after steaming when everything was again good and cool and had shrunk to allow some room; trying to remove it when hot was an exercise in futility due to expansion.

The arch needed to be removable to allow proper flue sweeping and washing. While it did not cure the flue and front end fouling by ash and cinders, those were considerably reduced and good hard 8 to 12 hour runs became practical.

I would have liked to have added a cross piece at the rear end of the arch to better force the air backwards and up against the crown sheet but could never come up with a practical method. Over the years the arch sagged a bit from thermal fatigue and I had to weld on a couple of stiffeners in the center, and the ablative effects of the fire did eat away at the stainless so that today it is less than 1/4" thick in the center area and some corners and edges are somewhat rounded that were once sharp, but all in all it has served very well and still has some years of life left.

Better alloys? You bet there are! Inconel X would be ideal, and perhaps Titanium, but these are very expensive and hard to obtain unless you have access to a Boeing or other aerospace scrap yard. Using such alloys would allow a thinner, lighter, easier to form and handle arch...but the old 300 stainless has lasted for hundreds of hours of operation and I am very satisfied....

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:00:50 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

i made a jig that sets the frog parts laid flat in the mill vice but slopped at 15deg. so i could end mill them rather than side mill them.
fred v

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:03:04 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: ILSN site

Dear ILSers,

I have been working on restoring the ILSN web site. The University went through a major server upgrade and all web services were re-evaluated. The ILSN web site will have a new home as soon as I can get the space on the web server. The web site data is not lost.

The Newsletter will be delayed until I get the web site operational.

I didn't send out a request for information for the ILSN because of this situation. If you have something to add to the newsletter please send it to me so I can get started on the October 1st issue. As of today I have nothing to print.

Mike Blaisdell
ILSN Editor

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:21:42 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

are you sure that's 15 deg.(1/2 angle)? You end up with a #2 frog angle.
Extremely sharp and small radius turnout.

Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:23:11 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

I've been following this chatter about bar track and switches for the last little bit. My aged but furtive mind keeps nagging at me that, lo these many years ago, there was a big article in one of the hobby mags on this question.
Imperfect memory insists that the piece, or pieces, was,were in Live Steam and perhaps talking about the track and it's construction at the Zinzinatti Zinder Znifferz.

Is this random thought anywhere near correct, or might I be looking for a 42 long strait jacket?

Cam Brown
The two footer

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 00:58:34 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

Dear Cam,
I don't think you will need the straight jacket as I also remember that someone mentioned the article(s) on an earlier thread about sar stock trackwork.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 21:36:44 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

I will take a couple of pictures and I forgot to add the time I take to roll the 1/2'' x 1'' flat bar to a smooth 75' radius that you could fly through and not think twice about it picking the points or frog.


Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 16:46:45 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

no, not sure what the actual angle was. i just said 15 because someone else had used that number. i was just making the point of machining it laid in the other direction.
fred v

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 18:11:40 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Images from down under

Those with a general interest in Model Engineering might be interested in this report from Australia.



Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 11:55:41 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

Hi Cam, Folks:

I think you can keep your strait-jacket in the closet for now :>) There was a long series in "Model Engineer" maybe 10/15 years ago. As I recall, it was called "Making Tracks", or something like that. It ran to 20 or so issues, and was from a dual-gauge (5" & 7-1/4") Society line. They showed how everything was done, including the "swing-nose" frogs that we have out on the BN. I copied the series...and if I could remember which pile it's in, I could come up with the dates. By the way....the swing-nose, or moveable-point, frog is a good solution to the 7-1/4"/7-1/2" problem, there are no guard rails on those switches. I also remember another....probably more recent article (maybe a short series) in...most likely..."Live Steam" about the subject too, but I can't bring the title to mind.


Mike Decker
Erskine Tramway, 7-1/2"

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 11:09:49 -0700
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: [coals] coal fired steam engines


I have taken the liberty of forwarding your request to a few groups similar to COALS. If there is any engines out there I would expect that you will hear from one of the group members. May I suggest that if you do make these purchases and get the project going that you take lots of pictures and do an article for AME magazine as I'm sure lots will enjoy reading about the project. Good luck with your endeavours.
AME can be reached through http://www.ameng.com.au/main.htm

kind regards

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:43:54 -0000
From: "Thomas H. Knox"

Subject: Allen Models

I tried to call allen Models today and the tele co said the number is disconnected. Is Mr. Allen ok? I am looking for a set of 2 1/2 " scale Chloe castings.

Tom Knox

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 22:05:40 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: [coals] coal fired steam engines

Try Steam Automobile Club of America, They have members with everything from a 189X Locomobile to modern vehicle conversions, some even use a VW engine as the basis for a steam power unit.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 22:10:28 -0000
From: "jcborshard"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

Hello Mike, Cam, and Group!

Your description sounds like the frogs I have seen on American Flyer S-guage switches. In a photo folder titled "Swing-nose Frog Switches" there are examples of an AF switch and an older 3-rail switch. Mike, would you add some pics so we could see what you use on the BN?

As the "toy" photos show, the swinging rails could meet the frog as stubbed [AF] or guided [antique, tapered end against the converging rails]. It appears that the converging rails could also be "stubbed" to the swinging rails, eliminating the work of milling the rail ends to converge to a point, but probably increasing maintainance required to keep everything aligned.

What has been the BN's experience regarding construction and operating advantages/compromises?

Does anyone know where the swing-nose frog originated and to what-- if any--extent it was employed, and with which rail-end options? Or were toy-makers innovating rather than imitating?

Regards, Jerry

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 20:05:35 -0400
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Re: Allen Models

I talked to him a couple of weeks ago...doubt that the phone would be disconnected this soon even if there was a problem. Are you sure you dialed the correct number?

don orr

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 22:31:38 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: flat bar switches

I have a picture of the steel bar switches I built that can be seen to those that want to see it.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 20:40:40 -0600
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Re: building flat bar switches

Hi Jerry:

I'll have to look and see if I've got any photos of our swing-nose frogs.
They aren't anything like the tinplate switches. The only part that moves (other than the regular points) is the actual point of the frog. They look pretty much like a regular frog, except that one side is solid with the stock rail coming into the heel of the frog, and the other rail has a sliding joint. There is a switch machine on the frog, and it literally bends the solid side over to fit into a "jog" in the wing rail, providing a continuous running surface. They're not like the spring frogs we have on "back-track" switches, on those frogs, the wing rail is spring loaded against the point of the frog, and the flanges push it open when you go into the back-track.

The main thing you have to remember with the swing-nose frogs is that....when you take a switch "on hand", or "off power", don't forget to throw the frog too :>) If you trail though one of them when it's not lined for your move, it really tears them up. And....one morning, I went out to relieve the local after the crew was taken out of service because they got in a hurry, and didn't throw the frog the second time they went into Main1 at Moorcroft. The Engineer was going so fast....obviously well over "Restricted Speed"....that he split the frog and put one-and-a-half GP-40's over the frog, and squeezed the two main tracks together :>)

The switches come from England....apparently, they have been in service over there on BR for a long time. The Company seems to be replacing them with long radius switches with 50 foot long points for higher speeds through the turnouts....but mainly after a derailment tears one up. They just put a new point/wing rail set into the frog at Marietta, and we have several others still in service. If I see our Engineer who used to be a welder, I'll ask him if they were any more trouble than the plain frog switches. I know the Company spends a lot of time building up the plain frog points with weld.



Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 21:52:38 -0700
From: "Robert Morris"

Subject: RE: Allen Models

Hello Tom,

Gene is just fine! I just spoke with him last week and he will be shipping my remaining Chloe Castings out this week. He said that everything was in stock.. I believe the correct phone number is:

(805) 967-2095

I hope this works!

Robert M.

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 08:22:14 EDT
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: [coals] coal fired steam engines

This reply may be out of order but, being an old, not completely crotchety engineer, permit me to spill this idle thought.

When the world, and myself, were slightly younger, I picked up a copy of a great, blue colored eome called, as I recall, Dykes(or better spelled) Automotive Encyclopedia. After several moves, career shifts. basement cleanings, heaven knows where it is now. Was great browsing-through book.It has, had, all sorts of stuff on the older steam cars.

Which brings me to the point. Steam engies for cars and trucks were a breed apart from our hobby choo-choos. A good source of info for this inquiry mifht be the Stanley Steamer Museum in Kingfield (or is it in Phillips) Maine.Probably findable on the web.

Cam Brown
The Two Foot Geek, hence aware of this other steam conected outfit.

Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2004 17:42:33 -0000
From: "fredvv44"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

the problem i see with those designs for 7+ ga. is the strength required. our engines put a lot of stress on the rails. the switchable frog design pivots in the middle. this looks like a weak point. the standard turnout used by most tracks has been around for a long time and has proven itself.
fred v

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 00:37:41 -0000
From: "Richard"

Subject: Sweet Creek

Hello to all,I'm Richard.
I'm a new member to the group and a member of the CVLS here in the Chula Vista area. I'm currently gathering materials to start construction of Sweet Creek and would like to correspond with others who have built this locomotive, in the process of building or planning to build. It would be nice if a group could be formed for those interested in this locomotive.
Best wishes to all.

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:28:23 -0700
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: Question or two

Good day to all of you,

I have just joined and am here to learn more about this awesome hobby.

Could someone give me a little info regarding Backyard Rails? I do know that they are out of business and have been for sometime. I like their Wide Vision caboose and would like to try my hand at building one.

As far as owning any piece of equipment, I have a Rail Rider Supply speeder and like it alot. It has given me alot of pleasure. Oh by the way I am one of those ugh (diesel) guys too.


Robert N. Bowman
Selah, WA

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:17:51 -0000
From: "aitchcain"

Subject: Information please

I remember seeing someone that had a train operation on a farm, out West I believe. Track was strap iron, iron bar stock laid on edge. Infor had a web site with pictures of the operation. Best as I remember gauge was 18" or 24". Real fine looking setup. Anyone have information on this, would appreciate a "thread" or other lead to it.
Thanks in advance,
Hugh Cain

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:02:44 -0600
From: "Chuck Hoelzen"

Subject: Re: Information please

I am building 15" steel layout. See details at:



Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "jim fieffer"

Subject: 2 1/5" C-19 castings

If I wanted to buy castings for a C-19, who should I get in touch with?
thanks, jim

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 22:42:30 -0700
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings

Conway C-19 paterns are now with Coles Power Models.
Ken Burns

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:57:35 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings

Ken, what is:
(dead address)

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:46:07 +0100
From: "Andrew Walton"

Subject: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings

Hi Jim
Not sure where you are in the world i am in the UK
I am just building a C-19 in 7 1/4 guage at the moment which is well advanced
I am working to Milner drawings
Castings are available in the UK from Reeves 2000 at a cost of around 3500 pounds sterling
The only fault with the drawings is the lack of Baldwin signs Axel box cover detail smokebox side plates and door plate
can any body help with those

Regards Andy Walton
Denver Light Railway
Locomotive Engineer

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 08:01:58 -0400
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings


AS stated, cole's has the CONWAY castings. You might also contact Rudy Van Wingen at COMO Roundhouse as I think he has a few of the C19 parts.

I started building one a few years back and was going to use MILNER castings and drawings. I had barely started (Had flame-cut blanchard ground frames for the milner, and the CONWAY castings) and had the good fortune to meet Dave Conway. What I found out was that in my naivte (?)
I had not discovered that the milner design was, AT BEST, a poor copy of the C19. It was so far from a scale version that milner could not have copied anything other than the outline of the engine, and thats what you got. To get the milner frames to "close" to scale I had to do a LOT of welding and machining. Dave's engine (and now Cole's) was/is right on the money as the place I met Dave was in the museum where he was taking diimensions from the prototype. Have no idea what the current Cole's status of the drawings is tho. Dave's drawings were barely satisfactory for construction if you were an experienced builder and knew what you were doing. These were Dave's exact (more-or-less) words to me when I first called him about building the engine. When I told him I had just finished an Allen mogul, he said I "might" be able to build from his drawings. ANyway, At Train Mountian last year Cole's had the first of their new CAD drawings for the engine, but I have no iudea if they were ever finished. Perhaps someone else on the board will be able to tell us.

I sold my chassis when it was partially finished as I just didn't have the time to put to the project that it deserved. It is a beautiful engine, and I wish you luck in your project!

don orr

Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 23:57:49 -0000
From: "thesyndicate88"

Subject: Chloe Questions????

Hello Group,

My Dad has recently purchased a Allen Models Chloe That was built sometime back in the 90's. The builder's plate has "SOMERS" on it and I believe it was from the Los Angles area?? This engine is very nice and actually ran quite well the other weekend after some fiddling....
I think it was more of fiddling with my technique rather than the loco but ya never know.... It's been many years since I have had the joy of shoveling coal! What a hoot! These engines need 6" boilers and larger water tanks...... At least that's the way I will finish my castings someday!

So I now have the little beast up on the stand in my shop and I have been making some much-needed updates. The oil supply lines to the cylinders were cracked and the steam oil was spending it's time on the outside of the cylinders instead of in the bore where it belongs!

The next item that I need to start tonight is the addition of Foot pegs to the loco. My plan is to run 1/4"X1" flat bar down the sides of the rear frame extension bolting thru in various locations. I will add a bracket to either side that will allow me to slide a section of round bar thru to form the foot pegs. This bar can be removed for photo ops and for transport but I believe it should serve as a great footrest. I was going to aim for locating this right at the back of the cab? Does this sound like a feasible solution?

Now that the cylinder rework is complete the foot pegs are my biggest project of the week.... After that it will get a new pressure gauge, revised safety chains, a clean job for the injector, repaired boiler bands, and a nice show polish! All of this by Friday night because I'm off to Sacramento on Saturday AM to take another crack at it!
What fun!


Robert M.

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:36:24 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings

Jim et. al. -

Sure hope all of you correspondents on this issue really mean a 2-1/2" (two and one half inch) scale model and not a 2-1/5" scale as written...

Como Roundhouse Products has all of the Conway coupler patterns and all his truck patterns (freight car, tender, and passenger car). In addition we have his C-19 lead truck wheel and frame pattern and cylinder saddle pattern. These were in exchange for a bad debt that Conway was unable to pay.

All of the rest of the patterns were "given" to Martin Becker (now deceased) who had earlier purchased Cole's Power Models. Whether or not Cole's will continue in business and the Conway parts ever become available for sale is unknown to me. It would be nice if someone "in the know" would let the live steam hobby know. As far as I know Martin was the "sparkplug" behind the live steam aspect of this since his company otherwise had no connection to the hobby.

In the meantime, anyone wanting Conway couplers, trucks or the other parts I mentioned please contact me at the above email address. Do not expect to pay the prices in Conway's catalog; they bore little or no resemblance to the reality of foundry costs in today's market, hence Conway's financial difficulties!

Rudy van WIngen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 16:52:07 -0000
From: "mtgcql"

Subject: Re: building flat bar switches

The article you are refering to was written by Dennis Monk about the Derby Society of Model and Experimental Engineers track. This line is dual gauge - but 3.5" and 5". The society has never had involvement in any larger scales.

Dennis was a good friend of mine and had a wealth of practicle engineering knowledge having been at Derby loco works in both LMS and British Rail days. The track he designed was fine for even large 5" locos (1/4 size models of 2' gauge 2-6-2T's were the biggest) But nothing near 7.25/7.5" gauge locos.

I have built points since in 7.25 gauge for use on our commercial line www.devonrailwaycentre.co.ukto similar designs but without the swing nose. I can take photos if anyone wishes. They have served well for 5 years and have had no work to them as yet. We also have a four way point built from bar but it is a bit unorthodox but is fine for shed roads.

Sorry to have not said anything sooner but I have been rather tied up of late.



Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 10:21:36 -0700 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: C-19 Parts

While its not exacty the same engine some of the detail parts I think are. For the engine marker lights see Rich Uhln as he has the ones for his K-27 that he built and supplys beautiful castings for in lost wax. He is out of Broomfield Co.
Boyd Butler

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 12:45:55 -0500 From: "Fred Rorex"

Subject: RE: C-19 Parts

I got to meet Rich and his wife last weekend. He came down here to Texas with a couple of his engines. Beautiful equipment. I have some pictures that I will post here this week or next.


Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 07:28:11 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: New images

New images from the meet at the Wimberley, Blanco and Southern in Texas last weekend are in the photo section of www.livesteaming.com

Also there you will find images from the grand opening of the DBC-Graz (Graz Live Steamers) in Graz, Austria.

Additionally, you will find in the technical section, a link to Glenn Peterson's new web site and his work on super elevation.


Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:31:27 -0500
From: "David Hannah III"

Subject: Re: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings


Is there any chance of you getting all the C-19 casting and parts under one roof, your shop?

Maybe you need to find someone to act has a middle man and see what can be accomplished and hopefully you could sell the complete casting set so all of us locomotive nuts could give "COMO" the new business.

David Hannah, III

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:09:43 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: 2 1/5" C-19 castings - Maybe you need to fine someone...

David -

Great idea! Are you volunteering?

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:15:23 -0700
From: "Bob & Faith"

Subject: BYR cabooses

Good Day,

Just a thank you to Matt of the Shasta Pacific railroad. He gave me a little info regarding the Back Yard Railroad wide vision caboose. His web site gave me the info I was looking for.

Thanks again,


Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:34:13 -0400

Subject: Better oil burners


I have started working on a Mogul that needs a bit of TLC to get running again.

The Mogul is currently an oil-fired beast of burden, using a "pot burner." (I'm still new to the hobby, so I'm not sure of all of the terms, and I'm going off of what more knowledgable people are saying.) I have gotten varying reports as to how great or lousy the Mogul's performance was before being laid up. (Since I wasn't around when it last ran, I can neither confirm nor deny reports of the current system's performance.)

I know that there's always the option to convert to propane for easier use, but what would be a "decent" burner to get were I to decide to stay with oil? What would a new burner run, and what sort of labor would I be encountering?

Any insight into this matter would be appreciated.


Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:10:08 EDT
From: Mikado8@aol.com

Subject: Re: Better oil burners

Erik, I purchased an Allen 4-6-0 that was oil fired using a pot. It has 2 drip tubes feeding the tray, one on each side. I was lucky it ran at all. It could not make enough steam and I was getting sick. It seemed as if it was not getting enough air. I opened the fire box holes as large as I could. This helped some but not enough. It had a restrictor in the stack and I was told to remove it by a fellow at the Aderondac Club. This helped some but I was still getting plugged flues. It was so dirty I was always covered with soot. Still I didn't give up. I found out that the heavier load it pulled the better it ran. We started to run with the blower on most of the time. Now IM smiling, the engine runs fine and I can run the entire weekend without cleaning the tubes. Bottom line, as far as IM concerned, pot burners are nice. It just takes some time to get to operate them properly. I don't have a lot of noise, I have great regulation and abundant steam. Besides, there is no smell as from propane but I do miss the smell of coal.
Bill C.
Beaver Creek railway
Lockport, NY

Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:23:39 -0700
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Better oil burners


I am assuming that your Mogul is an Allen Mogul. If that is the case I believe that boiler has a fire box large enough for an atomizer type oil burner. One source of a plan for these burners is the Joseph Foster Nelson book So You Want To Build A Live Steam Locomotive which is still available both new and used. (I sure wish Nelson had chosen a shorter title. It's a pain in the tush to type out) :-)

I believe you will get more heat out of an atomizer, however many people have gotten good results from a good running pot burner. I have used both types.


Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 09:10:17 +0200
From: "Johan"

Subject: RE: Better oil burners

Hi Bill C. & Erik,
It is with interest that I' reading your topic on "Oil Burners". As I'm primarily a coal burning modeller, I would like to take this opportunaty to be a freshman and ask two questions to set my mind at ease.

1) What is a "Pot burner"?
2) As I'm busy building a 2' gauge "Sugar Cane" loco, I am thinking maybe to run this baby on oil. Could you be so kind as to put a drawing of sorts, on this site?

Thanking you in advance,

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:51:29 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: ILSN site - SECOND NOTICE

Dear ILSers,

I have been working on restoring the ILSN web site. The University went through a major server upgrade and all web services were re-evaluated. The ILSN web site will have a new home as soon as I can get the space on the web server. The web site data is not lost.

The Newsletter will be delayed until I get the web site operational.

Mike Blaisdell ILSN Editor

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 21:24:53 -0700
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Sacramento Fall Meet Pixs

A week ago this past Saturday & Sunday Sacramento Live Steamers Held their Fall Meet. The meet was well attended and the weather was cool but clear on Saturday, Sunday proved to be rainy. Non the less a great time was had by all that attended. Check out these and other pixs at "Live Steaming In The Pacific Northwest"


Dan Morris

FYI: This posting was delayed by a major computer crash, not fun for sure!

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:53:01 -0000
From: "ncngrr"

Subject: Wheel steel?

I'm interested in milling/turning 2-1/2" scale freight car wheels out of steel. My first experience involved having some scrap 1" steel plate torch-cut into 6" disks with a 1/2" hole in the center. Since the torch hardened the steel (so I believe and was told), I had the disks annealed so that I could machine them. I bored out the axle hole easily enough, but when I went to turning the disks down, it seems that the steel is still pretty hard and doesn't machine nearly as easily as I thought it would. (I'm using a carbide-tipped AR8 cutting tool I purchased from Shop Tools... I don't know their country of origin [USA, China, etc.])

So... I have some newbie questions:

Where did I go wrong with my assumptions/approach?

What type of steel should I be looking for?


Colorado Springs

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:46:51 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Wheel steel?

exactly how did you "anneal" the steel?

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:49:19 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Wheel steel?

Scott, I make all my wheels from super hard 4140 round drops from a local oil field company machine shop. Skip all the carbide brazed tool bits and spend the money on a good indexable holder and cutting tips and turn away. I have a problem if I take heavy cuts with tape no matter what I do sometimes. I have learned the hard way that inserts are as different as the amount of money you spend on them. I ordered some inserts with the proper radius and with my compound set at 2 degrees and my insert set at 10 degrees so there is one setting for the tread and flange with the radius all in one stroke.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:51:23 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Wheel steel?

I forgot to say Scott dont worry about the edges and just grind the slag of and happy turning.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:26:07 -0600
From: "Scott Hahn"

Subject: RE: Wheel steel?

Rich D,

I took them to a business that, among other things, makes a living by annealing steel. I didn't watch the procedure, but as I understand it, they heated the "wheels" to a really high temperature and then let them cool down slowly.

That probably doesn't answer your question adequately, but that's all I know.


Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:26:07 -0600
From: "Scott Hahn"

Subject: RE: Wheel steel?


Thanks much.

Do you have any specific suggestions for inserts/holders? Manufacturer and part numbers, for example?


Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:33:16 -0400
From: RichD

Subject: Re: Wheel steel?

Scott, ok, that's the "correct" answer for annealing. :-))
Next ? is what, in fact, steel is it.
plain old 1018 mild steel, A36 structural steel, etc is a bear to machine on small machines (home shop). Lots of cutting fluid and sharp tooling. If you have a better than average (tight) large lathe, carbide insert tooling will help. Watch out for the blue chips!

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:48:35 -0500
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Annealing Steel (was Wheel steel?)

In a previous post, RichD asked 'exactly how do you "anneal" the steel?'

There are a couple of factors to consider in annealing steel. First, is the temperature to which the steel should be heated, and second, the rate of cooling.

The annealing temperature is dependent primarily on the carbon content of the steel and to a lesser degree on the alloys in the steel.

< 0.12% Carbon 1600 - 1700 deg F
>= 0.12% <= 0.29% Carbon 1550 - 1600 deg F
>= 0.30% <= 0.49% Carbon 1500 - 1550 deg F
>= 0.50% <= 1% Carbon 1450 - 1500 deg F

Slightly lower temperatures may be used in steel with > 0.75% manganese.

Heating is usually done in a furnace and monitored by pyrometer. Heating must be uniform throughout. Cooling should be done slowly enough to permit the development of the desired softness and ductility, in general, the slower the cooling rate the softer and more ductile the steel. The higher the carbon content and higher the alloy content, the slower the steel must be cooled.

For a more complete description of the annealing process, including the metallurgy involved, see references on the heat treating of steel such as the chapter on the subject in "Machinery's Handbook" or the book "Hardening, Tempering & Heat Treatment" by Tubal Can, Workshop Practice Series Number 1 published by Nexus Special Interests.

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:16:53 -0700
From: "Robert Morris"

Subject: RE: Wheel steel?

Hey Scott,

I have employed many methods of obtaining wheels for live steamers but my most recent is very similar to yours. My latest locomotive has wheels torch cut from solid disks of A36 plate. I didn't perform an annealing process to the disks and proceeded to chuck them up and go to town. The first 1/16" OD was quite a bear but after that they are nice and soft just like I was expecting. I used carbide inserts to perform all of the machining operations so far and have had great results. You can have a look see at the following web-site if you like?


Best Regards,
Robert M.

Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 10:42:42 -0400
From: "Michael Blaisdell"

Subject: Charity Train Ride

A message from Randy....

Hi Mike,

Since no one at all showed up for the last meet at Kenny Kings and since I have not been contacted by anyone with regards to the Charity Train Ride that I had scheduled, I wasn't sure if I should send this notice or not, but I've had to cancel the Charity Train Ride at Kennys.

He has some serious health problems. Because of the organization needed for this event, I had to decide a couple of months ago weather or not to procede. At the time things were looking very bad for Kenny and I thought that there was no way he would be able to participate in the event. Thank God he's doing better, but he's still not in great shape and the decision was already made to cancel.

If you want, you can e-mail the ils members just to state that the event has been canceled, but I don't know how much I'm supposed to say about Kenny's condition.

Just for the record, Kenny offered the use of his track, no matter what. I just didn't think it was practical to procede without his participation.

We will see what next year brings.

Thanks for all your efforts,


Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:43:19 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Rhodesia Railways Outline drawings now available



The drawings already available are for locomotives and steam cranes (side and end elevations are given):

Small class locos (2 drawings)

6th class
7th class
8th class
9th class
9A class
9B class
10 class (3 drawings)
11th class (2 drawings)
12th class (2 drawings)
12A clas
12B class
13th class
14th class
14A class
15th class (2 drawings)
15A class
16th class
16A class
17th class
18th class
19th class (2 drawings)
19B class
19C class
20th class
20A class
Class DE1
Class DE2
Class DE3
Class DE4 (2 drawings)
Class DE5
Class DE6
Class DE7
Class DE8
Class DE8A
Class DE8B
Class DE9
Class DE 9A
Class DE10A
Class DE11A
Class EL1
Booth Bros Crane
Cowan Sheldon Crane
Klochner Crane
Ransome and Rapier Crane

The cost as already mentioned will be 50p per drawing plus postage and packing. For further information please contact Geoff Cook in England or Chas Rickwood in Zimbabwe .

Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 21:48:37 EDT
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: Wheel steel?

Give me a call at the shop and I will give you the MSC part numbers for the tool bits with the corect radius to speed up the wheel turning process.

Vance Nickerson

Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 03:41:06 -0000
From: "Trevor Heath"

Subject: Garratt's in Kenya

Those with an interest in Garratt's might enjoy this image taken today in Narirobi, Kenya by Graham Roberts.

http://www.livesteaming.com/Nairobi Garratt's.htm


Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 07:44:07 -0700
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Thermojet printing


Some of the British boiler fittings for the Garratt are proving to be "unobtainable".

Therefore we are making 3D models with a view of having them converted to wax in a thermojet printer then cast.

Does anyone know of a person or company with a Thermojet printer who is friendly to our hobby and would be willing to make just a couple of boiler checks, a steam turret and a fire hole door. Maybe just two sets?

Thanks in advance


Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:06:36 -0600
From: Rupert Wenig

Subject: Re: Thermojet printing

Hello Trevor,
Give Rod Granthams a call. He produced a video on the subject of investment casting using a similar process to make the original patterns. The video is well worth the price in my opinion.
I haven't tried making patterns yet using his process but if I understood correctly, an inkjet printer will work also.
I cc'd a copy of this message to Rod so I'm sure he will correct me if I made a mistake. :-)

Rupert Wenig
Camrose, Alberta, Canada.

Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 15:25:29 -0800
From: "Hugh Smith"

Subject: Dog House

Hi All,

I'm looking for the dimensions of the brakeman's dog house that sits on the top of D&RGW tenders. I've got pictures of it but none that are scalable.

Looking at my pictures I'm guessing that is 2' wide 3' deep and 4'-5' tall and is offset to the fireman's side of the tender.
Anyone have the numbers, or a good guess.

Hugh Smith