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7-Plus-NGM Digest November 2002

Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:25:18 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: K-27



matt,
i do have copies of almost all the original shop drawings and blue-prints of the various versions of the K-27's, since i'm working on a 2.5" scale model of the #454.
let me know if you still need any info.

soni

Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:44:45 EST
From: bgwmoxie@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: K-27

If anyone can get ahold of John Darby, the previous owner to Darby's Railroad Supply; I know he was building by contract a couple of these mud hens a few years back.
Regards,
Chris

Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:04:18 EST
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 643



can i buy copies,i collect drawings Ray Mueller

Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:08:08 EST
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 643



Can I buy copies? Icollect drawings Thanks Ray Mueller

Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 20:57:47 -0800
From: "Matt LeBorgne"

Subject: Re: Re: K-27



Soni,

I still would be interested in getting drawings for the k-27.

Thanks

Matt

Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:02:40 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 643



dear ray,

i have about 180 drawings and blueprints for the K-27.
if you are interested,i can find out what it would cost to copy them.
i would guess around $200.00 since they are mostly large prints.
let me know if you want me to check.

soni

Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:11:26 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: K-27



dear matt,

as i told ray, there is about 180 drawings and blueprints.
it would probably be cheaper if you can tell me wich prints you are looking for.

let me know.

soni

Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 07:25:30 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: K-27



-matt,
are you looking for all the drawings and prints i have?
it might be cheaper if you tell me wich parts you need the drawings of.
let me know.

soni

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:33:22 EST
From: radixauto@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 643



Does anybody know a source for K-28 drawings?
Dave S.

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:14:06 -0800
From: "Matt LeBorgne"

Subject: Re: Re: K-27



Soni,

I want to produce a really detailed 2.5" scale model of 463 so I am willing to purchase all of the drawings of any relevance to that locomotive.

Matt

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:18:33 -0800
From: "Matt LeBorgne"

Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 643



Does anyone have drawings for a 200# Westinghouse Crosscompound air pump used on a D&RGW k-27,k-36,k-37. I was also looking for plans on a consolodated pop safety valve as well as a Nathan simplex lifting injector.

Matt

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:32:54 -0500
From: Grice Dale-MGI1833

Subject: RE: Re: Digest Number 643



Are you looking for outline drawings on the air pump or the entire set including innards. I may have a scale drawing of the outline.

Dale

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:44:23 -0500
From: Grice Dale-MGI1833

Subject: RE: Re: K-27



Hi Soni,

I have been working on scanning blue prints that an old time railroader friend of mine has before he passes the prints on to a museum. I contacted a local blueprint company and they have scanned large and small prints and saved them to tiff files on a CD for me. Results to date have been great. I even plotted an erecting drawing on my employer's plotter that was 107" long and it came out better than the original.

I have been considering building a K-27 and am also interested in your prints. If Matt is willing to get them on CD, maybe there are enough of us out here that would defray the scanning cost.

My next suggestion would probably scare you all the way down to your boots.
If you are interested, you could send me your prints and I can scan them at the blueprint shop, send you the prints and a CD back. I would feel antsy about sending my prints off to somebody that I did not know. I could send you a payment of whatever amount you feel is safe and when you get your prints back, send me the money back. I can also give you the name of several references.

Dale

Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 15:53:57 -0700
From: "ulrich honegger"

Subject: Re: Re: Digest Number 643



matt,
i have a extra set of castings (silicon bronze) in 2.5"scale if you are interested,or i can supply you with the prints.

soni

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 21:24:26 EST
From: smuel10363@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 644



Dear Soni

I have a large machine shop with the latest in copy equipment and could make copies plus an extra set for you. I would be happy to give you a deposit on them so you feel ok about it.
Maybe send a few at a time?
You can callme collect if you like.
314-837-9650
Ray Mueller

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:25:15 -0800
From: "Matt LeBorgne"

Subject: Re: Re: air pump



Dale,

I was looking for the entire set of drawings for air pump including the innards as well as for the governer.

Matt

Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:21:07 -0800
From: "Matt LeBorgne"

Subject: Re: Re: K-27



Soni,

I would prefer to just purchase the drawings. Let me know if we can work out a price.

Matt

Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:35:14 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Re: K-27



Matt,

I presume you are aware that Ulin Locomotive Works in CO, , is producing parts and plans for the K-27. From my catalog he is up to 13+ pages at $35 each now. The plans are provided free if you buy the castings from him. The web site above does not show the K-27 yet but his catalog does.

Regards,

Jim Hoback Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:26:11 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: K-27's



Count me in for helping with the cost if the CD of scans is produced.

Roy Stevens

Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:35:14 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: K-27's



I will will to help pay some of cost also, on the scanning of the K-27 plans.

David Hannah, III

Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:17:29 -0000
From: "Richard"

Subject: 3 3/4" Scale



Hello Everybody:

I'm seriously considering building a 3 3/4" scale model of Lucky 7 that was published in Live Steam about 25 years ago.Has anybody built Lucky 7 in this scale? Does anybody have any idea of a supplier of castings for 3 3/4" scale besides Rolls Models. Any and all infromation on this subject along with thoughts and ideas would be welcomed. Please contact me at RJL92105@aol.com .
Thanks and best wishes to all......
Richard

Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 07:19:13 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: K-27



matt,
james hoback is right,ulin has drawings for the K-27 with the 2.5" scale dimensions already on it.
my drawings are copies of the original D&RGW shop drawings and therefor all the dimensions have to be divided by 4.8 to get to 2.5" scale.

let me know wich way you want to go.

soni

Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 07:27:26 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: K-27's



to everybody who is interested in the drawings being scaned on CD, i can not send my drawings of to anybody at this point,because i,m using them every day.
i will check what it would cost to have it done localy. as soon as i find out,i will let you guys know.

soni

Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:17:24 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



RMI (Roll Models) has introduced 2 1/2" scale arch bar trucks. I had an opportunity to see a pair at the recent Maricopia Live Steamers Fall Meet in Phoenix. The trucks are really nice, heavily constructed, with CNC machined journal boxes, ball bearings, and nicely detailed ribbed wheels with "DENVER GRIFFIN" in raised letters.

In discussions with Paul Garin at the meet, he stated that the arch bar trucks are now available and can be purchased in several ways, from single components such as journal boxes, bearings, springs, etc. for the do it yourselfer, to complete RTR trucks. RMI offers several options in between, such as fully machined, bolt together kits (with or without their wheels). RMI was handing out their latest price list at the meet which contains detailed pricing on the various arch bar truck offerings. I was pleased to also note that they have added a lot more detail items in 2 1/2" scale to their price list, things like reefer door hinges (two styles), turnbuckles, hand brake wheel/ratchet/pawl set, and lots more.

Bill Laird
General Superintendent of Operations
Wimberley, Blanco & Southern Railroad
"The Bluebonnet Route"

Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:57:02 -0800
From: "Matt LeBorgne"

Subject: Re: K-27



Soni,

I would rather have the original drawings for the K-27.

Matt

Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 19:47:04 -0500
From: "Pat@On30.org"

Subject: Re: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



Any prices you can pass along? Any pics anywhere on the web?

Pat Turner

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 03:13:49 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Re: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



Pat,

Your picture is next to rubber-gauger in the model railroad dictionary.
RTR D&RGW 3'7" Arch Bar Style w/ 5.5" Spiral Back Wheels - Price Each $425

The individual castings were not on the list I received last week, but I requested an updated one today.

Roy Stevens 3' narrow gauge in 1:4.8 and 1:160, why bother with anything in the middle? ;)

Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 22:28:03 -0500
From: "Pat@On30.org"

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



Thanks for the price, the machined kit price should be a bargain!

The term you are looking for is MSD (Multiple Scale Disease). There is no cure, it is not treatable. Lucky it is not fatal!

As far as the scales in the middle may I recommend Sn3, On30, HOn3, HOn30 & 1:20.3 as a few I can that I have tried and liked.

Pat Turner

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:29:02 EST
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



Having seen all the e/mails on the RMI archbars I thought I would give my 2cents worth.
Was at the RMI factory last week in Fresno, and saw the 2.5" archbars. They look great, and have plenty of flexability built in for rough track. So I bought a pair. For all you hard core D&RGW fans this set of trucks will work. For those of us who model in the rest of the world, I will still continue to use, along with the RMI products, the 2.5" scale trucks from Craig Adams in Medford, Oregon.
At $495 a pair ( thats right 2 trucks) its a bargain and the 3pairs I have are the best rolling, free wheeling I have of all my rolling stock.
They are generic, cast sideframe archbars.
Very flexible.
Craig also makes a 3.75" scale sideframe too.
At a recent narrow gauge meet at the Bitter Creek & Western in Arroyo Grande, CA, Barry Hauge had adapted brakes to the Adams trucks that will work wonderful. The kit should be out soon.

At $850.00 per pair for RMI D&RGW RTR trucks, all of us narrowgaugers have a choice. The minute I saw them, I knew I had to have them.

Well enough said for now...
JB
modelling in ON-30, 1:20.3, 2.5"-4" scales its a disease!

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:30:39 -0500
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



Do you ave an email address for Craig Adams?

don orr www.locoparts.net

Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:35:25 EST
From: btflco@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: 2.5" Scale Arch Bar Trucks



Don, Criag's e/mail is innergroup@wave.net. He is travelling right now, as I talked to him just a while ago.
See his ad in Discover Live Steam

Jeff

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:26:09 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: K-27 and K-28's



In re. the discussions on the above locomotives, castings, drawings, etc....

Richard Ulin of Ulin Locomotive Works is currently producing a K-27 in kit and finished form. Write to him at 1160 Lilac Street, Broomfiled, CO 80020 for more information.

For those of you who have had an opportunity to see his Mason Bogie or Mich-Cal 3 truck shay run will know that they are "Nit Pickers Delights". Richard is too busy building locomotives and running them to bother with a 'puter.

Harry Haas Jr. has built a K-28 which has been running for several years with a string of coaches and it too is a delight to the eye. I don't know if Jr. has email but his Dad is very active and I am sure that some of you may have met him...

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:32:16 EST
From: crpnut@cs.com

Subject: K-27



What scale is the K-27 built in ? Charles Robbins

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:34:06 EST
From: crpnut@cs.com

Subject: Re: K-27



I get a reply but see no answer, what is going on here ? CR

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:40:28 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: K-27



Charles;

I have seen the K-28 and have operated it a couple time at Riverside and Bitter Creek & Western RR. I believe the K-27 Ulin is building is 2-1/2" scale. The same for the K-28. I have also operated Tom Miller's K-36's in Oregon, they are also 2-1/2" scale. I was running the second locomotive of a triple headed latch up, which was a K-28, (Harry Hass, Jr.) a K-36, (Miller's, ) and another K-36, (Bart's). I have many pictures of this fine running set up, and I'm sure Harry Haas Sr. as some pictures also.

Maybe next year we can put Ulin's K-27 in the front of the "Triple Headed" set up. Won't that be beautiful.

David Hannah, III

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:36:16 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



I am trying to do some research into common practices regarding the color and use of marker and classification lights on narrow gauge locomotives.

From my research I have found the following as regards to these lights in the standard gauge world.

Classification lights were mounted high on the smokebox and displayed one of the following indications while the locomotive was operating:

1) White lights displayed forward and to the side to indicate that the train was an "extra" movement and thus not on the timetable.
2) Green lights displayed forward and to the side to indicate that the second, or multiple, sections of the scheduled train follow.
3) Not lit when neither of condition 1 or 2 existed.


The Pennsylvania Railroad removed classification lights from yard and freight locomotives (with some exceptions) in 1929. In 1940 the PRR removed them from all locomotives in passenger service.

Marker lights on locomotives were located on either side of the pilot beam and displayed red to the front and (at least on the Pennsylvania Railroad) amber displayed on the other three sides of the marker lights until 1935 when the inside facing lense was blanked out and in 1950 the remaining amber lenses facing outward and rearward were blanked out.

Marker lights on tenders were located on the rear of the tender and displayed red to the rear and (again on the PRR) displayed amber on the other three sides. The changes made to the amber lenses on the tender marker lights were the same as the ones made over time to the locomotive markers.

My question is, did narrow gauge railroads follow the same or similar display of classification and marker lights?

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas

Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:17:18 -0700

From: "ulrich honegger"

Subject: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights

bill,
i can only comment on the D&RGW and RGS practices.
the classification lights were used the same as you discribed for the PRR.
as far as the marker lights goes, they used them like the PRR until around the turn of the century.
after that, they quit using the ones on the pilot beam.
the ones on the tender were used until the end of narrow gauge steam.

i hope that answers some of your question.

soni

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:11:52 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



Soni,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the information.

Bill

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:23:14 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



Hi Bill:

In addition to the class lamps, during daylight hours, they would carry cloth flags of the appropriate color in the smokebox brackets.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:42:15 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



Hi Bill:

Here's some more Class light info. Condition 3 was the normal condition for a scheduled train, of First (passenger), Second (generally, mixed consist), or Third (usually freight) Class. The Green flags would be displayed by all except the final section of a scheduled train, to notify trains that were to be met or passed that the "train" they were to see was not complete until the last (no flags, or lamps) had arrived. We still had classified trains on the BN when I started here in 1977...the "High Line" to deadwood was a Second class train, and had to be cleared as required by the Code.

The Rio Grande apparently used permanently mounted lights until the end, because the ones I can remember were hard wired into the electrical system. The 346 is that way. I have a spherical Handlan-Buck "portable" class lamp that has a plug on the end of the cord. The Pennsey probably removed the permanently mounted lamps, but would still have used removeable lamps. They were a signatory to the Standard Code of Operating Rules when I started forty years ago, and the Code required the display of class lamps. Using removable lamps would have been an economy measure.

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:18:04 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



Bill -

FYI Como Roundhouse Products is in the process of producing a 2-1/2" scale Adlake Marker/Switch lantern with internal battery powered LED lighting. The prototype model that we have currently uses one of the "25 size" computer batteries and runs about 24 hours continuously on one low cost battery; longer if turned off between uses (up to 48 hours).

The lantern is made up of investment castings, chemically milled parts, and wire forms, and an injection mold was made for the Fresnel lenses. The Fresnel feature actually functions and the lenses throw a very bright beam of light.

The lenses are available in all of the normal RR colors, Red, Green, Amber, Clear and Blue, and are cast in Lexan so as to withstand the heat of a smokebox when used thereon. CRP ntends to make these lenses available separately for those that want to make their own lanterns. They come in two diameters, 7/8" and 1", since the protoype lantern CRP chose to model had two different diameter lenses.

Since the components are costly and the assembly labor even more so, CRP will offer these in finsihed and kit form. The price is yet to be determined but will be well over $100.00/lantern.

Both switch stand mounting castings and car mounting bracket and castings will be available. I will post photos to the site as soon as the finished product is complete...

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:50:03 -0700
From: robert_morris@agilent.com

Subject: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Hello All,

I would like to know the correct tread surface for blind drivers. My 2.5" scale 2-6-0 will run with blind center drivers and I am about ready to turn my tread/flange profiles for them. Should I continue the tapered portion all the way to the back surface, or do I need to make part of the surface flat? Can anyone show me the light on this one????

Thanks Much,

Robert M.

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:58:47 -0800
From: Peter Moseley

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Robert:
Our blind drivers on our C-16's are flat all the way across (with a rounded edge for appearance).

The taper on flanged wheels is to accommodate for the change in differential surface feet per minute caused by the outer rail being at a larger radius than the inner on a curve. Centrifugal force pushes the outer wheel up onto a larger diamter and the inner wheel rides to a smaller diameter, thus reducing wheel wear.


The rails "slide" tangentially under the flat blind drivers as a curve is encountered.

Peter Moseley

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:35:04 -0800
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



I have seen the preproduction marker lamp and it is great. Based on that I immediately got my name on the list for 2 of the lamps. They will adorne my 2.5" caboose, as soon as I build it.
Ken Burns

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:20:14 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Robert and Peter,

If you want the blind drivers to look realistic, cup them. The ones I have seen were not flat or tapered. :-)

Cheers,

Jim Hoback
Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:47:03 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Trying to locate...



Does anyone have an email address, snail mail address or telephone number for a Mark Stevenson who lives in New Mexico?

I have a C-19 tender kit for him that Dave Conway of Conway Locomotive Co. gave to me to ship to him but Dave has lost his file and does not have his address. Mark has apparently paid a substantial amount toward the kit and I am sure he would like to have it.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 02:09:29 EST
From: GengH@aol.com

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Jim Hoback writes that the blind drivers he has seen are cupped. To me this means he has seen worn blind drivers as this is the way they would wear (just like flanged drivers). I'm no authority on blind driver profiles but I doubt they were turned other than flat.
George Hoke

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 05:12:14 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Two Footer's Two Cents: Pictures I recall of unintentionally upside down Moguls and Praires reveal flat footed blind drivers.

Cam Brown

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 05:15:54 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: NG Locomotive Marker and Classification Lights



Two Footer Again: I've seen the Como R'house marker/switch stand lights.
These jiggets are beautiful! Jewelry almost. Necklace yes - too big for earrings.

C?H

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:50:11 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Trying to find...found!



I had some bad information. Turns out it was Mark E. Stevens of Las Cruces, NM, not Stevenson. I now have a phone # for Mark but no email address. If anyone has that I would appreciate getting it; I have left a tel. ms. but no reply to date...

For those of you who may have been looking to help me locate Stevenson, my apologies and thanks.

Thanks also to Ken Burns and Cam Brown for the good words about my Adlake lantern. I will send your commissions next month, gents!

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhous Products

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:56:10 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Robert -

I too have observed the photos of upside down locos, particularly some in tMac Poor's DSP&P Pictorial book, and some of the blind drivers appeared to have a partial flange. The ones I saw had the normal taper and the beginning of the flange radius but the flange appeared as though it was about 1/4 of the normal height.

I will go and re look for the specific page references if you can't find them your self.

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:00:11 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



dear robert,
on your question about the blind center drivers:
i have old D&RGW shop blue-prints from back when the K-27s had blind center drivers.
they show the tires for the 4 center drivers to be flat all the way across and to be 1" wider then the ones on the ends.

soni

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:15:43 -0800
From: James Hoback

Subject: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



George,

My remark about cupped blind drivers was of course just my feeble attempt at humor. I put a little smiling emoticon after the sentence but this was apparently not enough. Sorry.

The ones I have seen were cupped, from wear.

Regards,

Jim Hoback Sonora Short Line Ry.
Sonora, CA, U.S.A.

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:58:29 -0700
From: robert_morris@agilent.com

Subject: RE: Re: Tread Surface for blind drivers???



Hello Group,

Thanks for all the feed back regarding the blind drivers!

Jim, I was in the process of typing in the CNC code for that cupped profile when I realized it was a joke!!! HA HA HA!! Just Kidding!
It's like trying to wear out the engine before it's even done.... Don't they call that weathering in the small electric choo choo world????

And another question I have is:

Why the reference to upside down loco's????

Thanks,

Robert M.

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:30:02 -0800
From: "John May"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 652



Robert,

I have a reproduction of an 1881 drawing of a D&RGR consolidation that shows drivers #2 & #3 are blind with flat tread.

John May

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:24:04 -0800
From: Ken Burns

Subject: Re: Trying to find...found!



Make mine in the form of product!!
Ken

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:55:12 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: RE: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly!



Robert,
I just checked my 1930 Locomotive Cyclopedia. For a 6 inch wide, blind locomotive tire the inner and outer 1 1/4" of the tire is tapered 1/8". That is an angle of 5.7 degrees (angles don;t scale down)for a distance of slightly over 1/4" for a 2 1/2" scale loco. Also, the outer and inner edge is given a 1/4" radius. That translates to .050" in 2 1/2" scale.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:09:29 EST
From: yrfavsob@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 652



As others are saying the blind driver tires are flat. At least on D&RG and F& CC driver prints the blind tires were 1" wider than the flanged variety (i.e., 6.5 " vs 5.5").

Dennis O'Berry

Date: 15 Nov 2002 01:56:15 -0000
From: 7-plus-NGM

Subject: New file uploaded to 7-plus-NGM



Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the 7-plus-NGM group.


Uploaded by : cal_ng_nut
Description : Reguardless of gauge, or railroad, or what is shown on reproduction blueprints, this is the profile of "Blind Drivers", just adjust width to suit and maintain the tapers.

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:54:15 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly!



curtis,

can you explain how a tapered axle would fix the differential problem between the inside and outside wheel when going around sharp curves?
maybe i'm misunderstanding your statement.
to me it sounds like the center of the axle being of a smaller diameter is supposed to let the wheels move at different speeds?
please let me know where i'm mistaken.

thanks soni

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:44:13 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly !



Hi Soni:

I looked in my copy of "Science of Railways" to find something on the taper in car axles, but came up with no explanation for the practice. There were the reaults of flexing tests on various steel and iron axles, but no reason for the taper on the axle. I do agree with Curtis about the taper of the wheel tread...it is to center the wheels on the track so as to avoid the flanges rubbing on the rail. The big railroads go to great lengths to avoid flange contact with the rail, or to provide lubrication where contact is unavoidable. As a practical matter, one wheel slides a little when rounding a curve. The SD-70MAC's that we operate have even gone so far as to "re-invent" Sir Arthur Heywood's radiating axle arrangement, which allows the center axle on a six-wheel truck to slide sideways on a curve....pulling the outside axles into a (more or less) radial angle to the curve. EMD even patented the idea....I guess their patent attorneys didn't go back over a hundred years to check and see if it had been done before :>)

Best,

Mike Decker

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:11:48 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly!



Soni,

Can you explain how a tapered axle would fix the differential problem between the inside and outside wheel when going around sharp curves?

Nope, I can't. :-) It doesn't fix the problem, what the tapered axle does is allow the axle to flex so that it's less likly to snap when experiencing the differential forces.

The only solution to the differential forces applied to a wheel set in a curve is to make one (or both) of the wheels free rolling on the axle. However this does make for a more dangerious braking situation, and a much more expensive wheel set, hence why you only see such things on "bullet" trains and the ilk.

Please let me know where I'm mistaken.>

You are not mistaken. You are quite right. In the world of railroading the only real innovation to help with the problem of differential forces in a wheel set when going through a curve was the taperd axle. It did't fix the problem, or even alleviate the problem, it just cured one of the symptoms of the problem.

Cheers,

Curtis

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:58:14 -0000
From: "Surrey Light Railway"

Subject: Re: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly!



Hi,

I always understood that it was the taper on the WHEELS that helped railway loco and stock wheels go round curves easier. As the centrifugal force pushes the vehicle "outwards" going round a curve this has the effect of moving the "outer" wheel onto a slightly larger diameter of wheel tread, whilst at the same time, the "inner" wheel moves on to a slightly smaller diameter area of the tread, thus creating the "differential" effect. So, although the wheels are revolving at the same rate, the distance the "outer" wheel travels is greater than the "inner" wheel travels. I hope this makes sense!

In Britain we have industrial railways in brickworks where the drying cars only ever traverse straight track. In order to reduce manufacturing costs these are made with non-tapering treads. If you try running these round curves they nearly always derail because of this lack of "differential".

Regards,
John Crosskey

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:22:48 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Message 3006 correction...



As my good friend Mike Green has very gently pointed out, the Ulin 3 truck Shay is not Mich-Cal but Westside Lumber Company's...I stand humbly corrected and beg everyone's pardon for rushing to print unprepared!

It is still a magnificent machine, though!

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products.

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:31:19 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: 3 3/4" Scale



Anyone who wants to do 3 3/4" scale can't be all bad. Excuse delay in answering. Contact me off line. My brain is yours to pick.

Cam Brown

Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:01:07 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly!



Is it really the lack of a differential action, or is it the lack of a fillet?

Arno

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:59:06 -0000
From: "adriansant"

Subject: DMOZ Directory



Dear Members,

Can I remind you that if you own or know of a miniature railway website, that you want others to know about, please submit it to DMOZ.

Go to http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Trains_and_Railroads/Miniature/ to submit your site or look at the ones already there.

Many other search engines use DMOZ as a source.

Please contact me if you have any difficulty.

Thank you.

Adrian Sant
Editor

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:13:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Jones

Subject: Fitchburg Northern



This question goes out to anyone who can answer it. Is the Fitchbug Northern a good first steam loco to build, and if so, how much can it pull, and how well do they run?
Thanks to any responders, -Tim

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:46:29 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern



Tim,
The Fitchburg Nothern is a good first locomotive for a person with some machine shop experience. You will need a lathe and a milling machine to make the parts. (this is not a "drill press and file" locomotive) Most of the parts are simple. A few can be a little tricky but by taking your time and thinking things through, even those can be made without much trouble. I have seen Russ Steves' origional Fitchburg Northern run (At the Waushakum Livesteamers track) and it does run well. It was pulling a few cars and didn't seem to have much trouble with making steam or traction. I have begun to build the Fitchburg Northern myself (although not my first locomotive). With a handfull of parts already completed, it looks like it's going to be a fun loco to build. I always liked the looks of the F/N and had the plans for a few years. This is the year I will build it.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:15:00 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Fitchburg Northern Mogul



I'd replied to Tim off line but guess I should clutter up the group mailing with what was said as I see other responses. Now if I can solve the eternal mystery of attachments you shall get my remarks. Lost again. I suggested that Tim contact Russ Steves, builder of an early FN Mogul #5, beautiful little machine. Russ may have made some important modifications to the instructions in the construction series; I THINK he upped the cylinder bore a bit.
Cam Brown

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:17:52 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern Mogul



List,

I hope that somone would post the changes that were made.

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:14:19 -0600
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern



Tim:

A lot of good advise on the list here. I would always call Gene Allen 805-967-2095 and ask as many questions as you can think of. A great GREAT wealth of info and he will tell you "like it is"! I myself am starting a locomotive which shares many of the same parts as the Fitchburg . . . the Chloe.

Curtis H.

Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:17:31 -0600
From: Curtis Hustace

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern



Also,

The Chloe can pull about 5-6 people on straight and level track. The Chloe is 200 lbs and the Fitchburg is 300 lbs if built exactly from the kit. So I would guess the Fitchburg could to better than the Chloe.

Curtis H.

Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 03:03:29 EST
From: GengH@aol.com

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern



More on the Fitchburg Northern:
I have almost completed mine. I can't comment much on the hauling capacity although I've run Roy Anderson's Fitchburg at Train Mountain. His runs great and tracks beautifully.
For me it has been a good first locomotive. Gene Allen sells good castings and is helpful and accomodating. I've done all the work on a 9" lathe and a Grizzley bench mill.
I've made many changes as I've gone along. The cab and tender are all aluminum. I designed a propane fired Briggs boiler and included two large tubes for a superheater. The burner is what is becoming a Pacific Northwest standard. It uses 1/2" EMT steel tubing with slots or holes. It burns clean and very quiet.
My main advice would be on the boiler and frame. On the boiler I'd avoid the one shown on the drawings which is the same one in the Live Steam articles. This boiler has a fire-box that is too narrow for rolling tubes and it has a lot of non-code welds. Either buy a boiler or get one designed by someone competent in this field.
On the frame I'd advise looking into a plate frame. I've not seen one with a plate frame but the frame as designed will not allow a single set of drivers to be dropped. It's a major operation to drop a driver.
The rear spring hanger needs to be modified.
Good luck.
George Hoke

Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:16:39 -0500
From: Russell G Steeves

Subject: Re: Fitchburg Northern



Hi Tim,

The Fitchburg Northern was my first engine and I am not a machinist. I still think it was a great choice after 9 seasons of running. I changed a few things. I made the fire box 4 1/2" wide. This allowed me to use the Allen Mogul fire door and is perhaps the reason I have been able to use anthracite pea coal so successfully. When I initially tried to use soft coal the small 1/2 inch tubes plugged up in about two hours. Now I almost never need to clean my flues. You could consider larger tubes. The Chloe cylinders may be a little small for the FN 300lb. wt. but there isn't much room to bore them out. Mine are stock size. I found that setting the safeties to ~ 120psi. is adequate. My FN was works hard but can pull 12 adults on four cars on Waushakum's 1.2% grades. My tender tank is 2" longer and 1" lower. Besides looking better to my eye it gave me a lower more rearward seating position for better cab and firing access. It also permitted positioning the foot rest on the tender vs. the engine. Good Luck!

Russ Steeves
Fitchburg Northern #5
Chelmsford, MA

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:12:21 -0500
From: "Casy Jones"

Subject: (unknown)



Hi All,
I'm coming to the Los Angeles area on 12/31/02 and leaving on 1/05/03. Anybody want to get together while I'm there? I'm staying in a hotel right downtown, near the convention center and won't have a car until 1/03, but would sure like to know what to see out there. I plan on getting to LALS on Sunday before flying back to Michigan.

Any info and suggestions would be appreciated.

Jim Gould
Ann Arbor, Mich.

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:35:37 -0000
From: "crown36gage"

Subject: help save steam in georgia



Word is now official that Six Flags Over Georgia Amusement Park in Atlanta plans to gut their steamers and convert them to diesel this winter. The engines are 36" gage oil burning 5/8 size replicas of the General and the Texas built for the park in 1966 by Harpur Locomotive of Wilmington, California. A letter and e-mail campaign is under way to try to preserve them. If you can help by writing a DIPLOMATIC (not angry) letter, please address it to:

Six Flags Over Georgia
275 Riverside Parkway
Austell, GA 30168
PH: 770-948-9290
or
www.sixflags.com
or
Mr. John Odem
General Manager
Six Flags Over Georgia
P.O. Box 43187
Atlanta, Georgia 30336

Thanks,
Denis Larrick

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:53:19 -0800
From: cj.trainer@juno.com

Subject: Re:help save steam in georgia



Denis
I have forwarded your message to the members of the Canton, St.Paul and Pacific Railway in Canton, GA. Bob Harpur is one of our members. I've already written my letter.
Charlton Jones
Secretary, CStPP Ry

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:58:10 EST
From: bgwmoxie@aol.com

Subject: Re: 3 3/4" Scale



Are You looking for a 7-1/2" gauge engine?
Lucky 7?

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:21:33 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Drawing(s) needed...



Does anyone out there have a drawing of drawings of the F&CC Victor Gold Mining car that they can send me as a JPEG or PDF attachment? The question has come up regarding the type of coupler pocket used on the prototype and I would sure appreciate some info.

I know I saw drawings of the car several years ago but I think they were from an HOn3 kit...

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Procucts

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:24:58 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Drawing(s) needed...



Rudy;

Check the annual of Narrow Gauge magazine, "Fine Scale". They have what you are looking for.

David Hannah, III

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:03:02 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Drawing(s) needed...



There are drawings of two of the Victor Gold Mining Company gondolas (F&CC #348 and F&CC #3350) on page 83 of The 2003 Finescale Railroader Narrow Gauge Annual, published September 2002. However, the drawings do not show anything regarding couplers. On page 84 there is a photograph of one of the cars (F&CC #350) as a load on a flat car. The caption under the photograph states, in part, "The original couplers are of the Sams automatic link-and-pin design", and the coupler is visible in the photograph on one end of the gondola.

The Carstens book, "Slim Gauge Cars", published in 1991, shows side and end plans of F&CC #350 on page 23. The couplers are shown in these views and the technical data under the drawings state "Automatic Cast-Iron Couplers".

Bill Laird
General Superintendent of Operations
Wimberley, Blanco & Southern Railroad
"The Bluebonnet Route"

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:50:08 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Drawings no longer needed...



Thanks to the usual rapid and complete response of the 7+NGM members I now have a great copy of the F&CC Victor Gold Belt gondola car which contains all the information required.

Thanks guys!

Rudy van Wingen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:12:51 -0800
From: Greg & Susan Robinson

Subject: Reader's Choice Awards



Hi All,

Was very intrigued with the talk lately of "rating" the vendors in the live steam hobby (would have replied sooner, but was away playing for the weekend, helping a railroad lay a yard).

Perhaps a publisher in the hobby should take on the task of such a project (with a bit of a twist).

The 7+ RAILROADER is happy to announce here first that we are now taking "votes" for the Reader's Choice Awards to recognize outstanding vendors in the live steam hobby. The top three winners will receive free advertising and snazzy plaques.

This will be an unscientific process, based solely on the replies received (you don't need to be a subscriber to the 7+ RAILROADER to vote . . . we encourage _everyone_ to participate.)

Copies of the form will soon be available on our web site. Or you can e-mail us right now and we'll reply-mail a txt form to you.

Only positive comments will be accepted. We want to emphasize what is good in the hobby, and (like Chuck), we don't have the resources to track down the validity of every criticism. If there is a vendor that you think should be on the black list, the best strategy for this contest is to cheer for your favorites and remain tactfully silent about the crooks. We feel strongly that if there is a broad base of positive comments about the reputable vendors, this will shine a happy light on the good guys.

Paper forms will be sent to all of our readers and to all of the vendors we are aware of, with the suggestion that they send copies of the form to their happy customers. The results will be published in the 7+ RAILROADER and on our web site. If practical, we will anonymously post the positive comments on the web site.

The good vendors deserve your praise. Please let us know what you think. And we encourage you to tell everyone you know in the hobby about this as well.

We'll accept replies up to Dec 31, 2002.

All the Best,
Greg Robinson

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953, Red Bluff, CA 96080 USA 530-527-0141 fax 530-527-0420

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:21:48 EST
From: douglasandcj@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: Blind drivers??? - Tread Lighly!



You are so right on the difference between the flange side of a wheel as it relates to circumference and the outside of a wheel. If everything were designed perfectly and the field conditions were perfect no flange is needed on a wheel on tangent or curved track up to 2860 foot radius running at equalibriam speed.

In reality the difference in diameters of the parts of wheels don't actually take up all the differential and the low or high side wheel will slip/slide around the curve. The difference on which side of the wheel set slip/slides is related to the coefficient of friction on the wheel contact portion of the rail head, the wear on both the rail and wheel set as well as over or underspeed of the vehicle while traversing the track. This can happen on tangent track as well if one side is out of gauge or has a coefficient of friction quite different than the other side.

A wheel set makes an angle of attack on either the high or low rail as well as tangent track that affects the ability of the wheel set to track well and affects the ride quality of the vehicle in many situations. The wheel and rail interface is more criitical as weights and speeds go up and track/wheel conditions conditions deteriorate. All wheels will eventually take the shape of the rail they are running on, this has the effect of creating a cupped profile of the wheel with a false flange forming on the field side of the tread. When this situation is allowed to approach maximum allowable deviation from accepted profile the wheel takes on the condition of having no differential and its steering and resulting damage to track and ride quality is seriously affected.

In steam days the blind driver or blind wheel on a multi wheel bogie needed to be more flat than tapered but was done either way depending of the owners preference. The industry standards varied by road and opinion of the Master Mechanic. In reality the blind driver profile should be more flat as its blind purpose is to allow the wheel to move laterally across the head of a rail allowing a long wheel base locomotive to traverse sharper curves than a similiar locomotive without blind drivers or to lessen the pounding lateral forces being applied to the rail when under power and pulling.

Many 8 and 10 coupled locomotives exhibitied extremely heavy lateral forces when under power and the track structure as well as bridges had to be beefed up to accomodate these forces or in some cases some of the locomotive drivers were manufactured blind and maintained that way so as to lessen these forces. A slight decrease in tractive effort would occur as less of the blind flange wheel would be contacting the railhead.

In our model world we tend to concentrate on moving around tight curves and tight turnouts when applying blind drivers.

Doug De Berg
Ch. Mech. Officer
Shoal Creek Railway

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:35:31 -0800
From: "DOUGLAS F WILKINSON, SHIRLEY WILKINSON"

Subject: Re: Reader's Choice Awards



Greg/Susan,
It may sound fun to do such a rating but we all should be happy to have all the suppliers we can get on board helping us in our individual hobby pursuits. Categorizing or listing in any type of order may have an unhappy result of shunning a new startup or small supplier from the already short list of modeling suppliers. I trust that the results of any input you may receive is not published. I would agree that there needs to be a way of communicating who the bad apples in the supplier field are but hopefully there could be a different way of doing it.

Doug from Seattle

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:51:07 -0800
From: Greg & Susan Robinson

Subject: Re: Reader's Choice Awards



It may sound fun to do such a rating but we all should be happy to have all the suppliers we can get on board helping us in our individual hobby pursuits.

I agree entirely that we need as many vendors as possible.

Categorizing or listing in any type of order may have an unhappy result of shunning a new startup or small supplier from the already short list of modeling suppliers.

We are working hard to make it as fair as possible. A number of revisions have already been made to the process (the last one as recently as an hour ago) to make sure that vendors are not penalized for being new or small.

I trust that the results of any input you may receive is not published.

They will be published in a very delicate manner emphasizing that those with the best ratings are the ones who have earned the very highest praise from their customers.

I would agree that there needs to be a way of communicating who the bad apples in the supplier field are but hopefully there could be a different way of doing it.

I would be much more afraid of unhappy results if we or anyone else tried to make a list of the "worst suppliers" as opposed to seeking praise for the best.

It is a tough call. We are on a slippery slope, taking on such a project. And it may very well come back to bite us. But our motives are to serve the hobby and the vendors by trying to acknowledge superior products and service.

There will still be another twenty-four hours before the final details are etched in stone. We are open to input.

All the Best,
Greg

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953, Red Bluff, CA 96080 USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:23:02 -0800
From: "DOUGLAS F WILKINSON, SHIRLEY WILKINSON"

Subject: Re: Re: Reader's Choice Awards



Thank you for responding and for taking great care and giving consideration that we are all people and as such many of us are very sensitive to criticism. Granted one might not be wise to be in a commercial field if that person was sensitive to much of anything but never the less, the hobby commercial field does have many in it that are not really stone cold commercial type people, so I would believe that sensitive care is required.

Thanks,

Doug from Seattle

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:10:59 -0500
From: "Bruce Mowbray"

Subject: Re: Re: Reader's Choice Awards



=>It is a tough call. We are on a slippery slope, taking on such a project. And it may very well come back to bite us. But our motives are to serve the hobby and the vendors by trying to acknowledge superior products and service.

This Statement alone, especially if there is a chance that it will bite us in the end is a good reason NOT to do it. You are willing to take a chance with what few vendors we have? I think time would be spent better on a different new feature of a magazine. WHat other new item can the readers come up with? I know there are a few vendors who would close up shop if just one more person with a gripe comes knocking on their door with a non-realistic complaint. And, with you standing there, how do you know the complaint is a valid one.

Be careful of what you say/write/post

Bruce Mowbray
TMB Manufacturing and Locomotive Works
1 1/2" Scale & 2 1/2" Scale (Narrow Gauge) Live Steamer

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 05:49:38 -0800
From: "Howard Springer"

Subject: Re: Re: Reader's Choice Awards



REPLY TO GREG ROBINSON:
I feel that your proposed "rating" no matter how well intended, would result in more problems than it could possibly eliminate. Currently there is an "underground network" that spreads the word - and our branch of the hobby is not so large that word of mouth won't do the job. I'd much rather see your efforts devoted to reinstating the "centerfold plans" that Bob's issues carried.
Keep on steaming - Howard Springer

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:13:10 EST
From: steamin10@aol.com

Subject: Re: Digest Number 661



Hickory Ridge. I have recently been in contact with the operators of Hickory Ridge. In their defense it seems they are in a legal quagmire over their property and rental space for their shop.. It will be interesting to see if they can get restarted after this next court apearance scheduled for January...

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:35:32 -0000
From: "Ron"

Subject: Hickory Ridge



I will lay to rest some rumors that have circulated. I am the operational partner of Hickory Ridge. Last December I had a personal family problem that required me to leave on a moments notice. When one of the partners came to the landlord in the beginning of February to pay the rent, the landlord had changed the locks sometime in January and refused to give the new keys to us but still was demanding the rent. After seeking legal counsel, the lawyer recommended that we wait for the landlord to file the necessary papers in Magistrate Court. It was not until April that he filed them and his attorney failed to give us notice. To make this short, this has escalated to a full blown legal battle. Our cost to date has exceeded five digits.

We have every intention of moving the business but are unable to do this since we have been locked out. They are still refusing to give us access.

We have an enormous amount of time, materials, and not to mention money invested into this business. However, our commitment to the hobby is still strong.

Under advice of counsel, I really cannot say anymore.

However, my take on the publishing of the Readers Choice Awards is not with overwhelming enthusiasm. We always seem to hear the bad experiences that consumers have with a vendor, regardless of the market the vendor supplies. I for one, do not like to see the competition bad mouthed. Every supplier has problems, it is how the supplier deals with them that count. That is what word of mouth does as well as quality of the product and availability. This hobby cannot afford the loss of ANY vendor, regardless of who he/she is. Not all vendors can supply everything, I believe that each vendor is unique and fills voids within the market.

Personnally, I feel that any publication that goes beyond a "Product Review" could be tampering with libel/slander actions. Just make sure that the facts stated are true and accurate and are not just hearsay. Suppliers or vendors, usually have enormous amounts of time and/or money invested in their business. The market will dictate who survives in business and that is the burden of the level of service provided.

I have found that most, if not all vendors, are in this business out of the love of the hobby and not for financial gains. How many other markets can say that?

I agree with what Bruce Mowbray and Howard Springer have posted and my humble advice is to watch that slippery slope.

Best wishes to all for the holidays.

Ron

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:44:48 EST
From: douglasandcj@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hickory Ridge



I was a steady but not large monthly customer of Hickory Ridge and found the product that I was being supplied extremely good. I hope that the difficulties can be ironed out and the business can return and be a part of our program once again.

Doug De Berg

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:04:51 -0500
From: "don@locoparts.net"

Subject: Re: Hickory Ridge



ROn

I am glad to hear that salvation is around the corner as we have all missed you.

Your comments on the "Readers Choice Awards" are right on target, and apply to all of us. Many thanks to you, Bruce, and Howard for injecting a modicum of reality into the discussion. Many of the vendors...me included...depend upon all of our customers to make our work and our future better.

Thanks also to the many customers we all have who take the time to return positive comments to our fellow live steamers.

don orr
www.Locoparts.net

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:46:27 -0800
From: Greg & Susan Robinson

Subject: Re: Reader's Choice Awards --Stillborn?



Thank you for responding and for taking great care and giving consideration that we are all people and as such many of us are very sensitive to criticism.

The intent was to offer no criticism whatsoever. Only to praise those vendors who receive the highest marks. There are well over one hundred vendors in this hobby. We were hoping that it wouldn't be considered an "insult" not be in the top three (or five . . . or whatever).

Frankly, if someone else were holding the contest we wouldn't expect to place in the top rankings. We do try hard to communicate with our customers when there is a problem. But we miss our share of deadlines. I don't think it would hurt us a bit not to be one of the "TOP 5" (though it might be beneficial for those who are . . . and good service deserves to be rewarded).

This Statement alone, especially if there is a chance that it will bite us in the end is a good reason NOT to do it.

I was actually thinking that it might bite me / us at 7+ RAILROADER, if some people got their feelings hurt. I do think it would be a good thing for the hobby (as it is for nearly every other industry and hobby).

I know there are a few vendors who would close up shop if just one more person with a gripe comes knocking on their door with a non-realistic complaint.

It is a pervasive issue in the hobby. "Why does it have to cost so much?" "Why doesn't he keep three dozen of every casting in inventory all the time?" "I spend my time standing in front of the lathe for free . . . why doesn't that vendor do the same?" It has been touched on by the other magazines many times over the years. And I've had an editorial on the same subject stewing in the back of my brain for a while now. I wouldn't blame any vendor for being frustrated with some of our live steam brethren.

And, with you standing there, how do you know the complaint is a valid one.

But again, in these awards complaints would not be aired. There would be a request for readers to rate their satisfaction (1 to 10) with the vendors with whom they have experience. Only those vendors with the highest score would get mentioned. It is by definition and entirely subjective process: "Reader's Choice". Praise is given to the vendors with the very highest satisfaction level.

I feel that your proposed "rating" no matter how well intended, would result in more problems than it could possibly eliminate. Currently there is an "underground network" that spreads the word - and our branch of the hobby is not so large that word of mouth won't do the job.

We wouldn't plan on rating every vendor in a rank from 1. to 125. (or whatever). That would be unfair. It would cause great debate, raised voices, flared tempers, litigations, and probably my lynching.

And is it really best that praise only travel through the "underground network"? What about the hobbyist who doesn't belong to a club and doesn't live on the live steam lists? Maybe the grapevine is the best vehicle for this sort of thing. I'm looking for input here.

I'd much rather see your efforts devoted to reinstating the "centerfold plans" that Bob's issues carried.

I'm glad you like the plans. In the next issue there is a nice center two-page spread on a Porter 0-4-0T. It looked really nice on the blueline proof we just FedExed back to them.

I guess I am being naive about all this. Our plan it to do the survey then print a brief article that says, "The top five winners of the Reader's Choice Awards are companies A, B, C, D, and E. Congratulations for making your customers happy."

Will this harm the hobby?

We've sent off the data files for the form to the printer, but we're going to put the project on hold until we get more feedback. I have my own ideas, but our responsibility to serve the hobby in the way the hobby wants to be served. Please tell me what you all think (either on-list or off). If the consensus is that this really is a bad idea, we'll drop it like a hot cut-off tool.

All the Best,
Greg

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953, Red Bluff, CA 96080 USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:39:46 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: Hickory Ridge



Ron,

Good to hear from you again. Hope the family problem that precipitated all of this is behind you and that you are successful in getting Hickory Ridge back on track. I have sincerely missed you as a vendor.

Best of luck,

Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, TX

Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:22:40 EST
From: Jay W Stryker

Subject: Small Vendor's View was Re: Hickory Ridge



Hi Ron, and list,

... Amen.....

Just to add my own $0.02, or less, of comments.
I do repairs and prototypes, etc.
No advertising, just local stuff and word of mouth.
Mine is a small biz as an outgrowth of the hobby with no pretensions to grow to a transnational corportion. However, I often find that customers are accustomed to fast delivery, perhaps from using too many fast food restaurants..??
Example, a customer needs a replica of a 1912 "one-lunger" gas engine magnito mount.This is a project he has had going for the last three years. He brings me a mount from another engine to copy and to make slight modifications for his own engine. I estimate over two weeks to build, as it gets fitted within other projects. At the end of the first week he calls for a progress report (yes, it is about 1/2 done but still in the weldment stage), and then calls Wed and Thurs of the next week (and yes, more is done) and then says "has to have it for the weekend".
So now I shift project scheduling and get it finished Friday.
No call.
No show on Sat, Sun.
I call him Monday. No answer.
More messages left.
He calls back Thurs. Says "no hurry now, I won't need it until the next engine show (about in three months).
He eventually arrives - unannounced- and collects his two mounts and pays by check.
Check bounces... more calls... eventually I get another (good) check.
Lots of time and agrevation.
This all comes to about $3.25 per hour for me, minus the shop expenses.

I would be better off working as a janitor's apprentice...!!! B^)

This above is not a "gripe"... just how it is when dealing with the public, and even hobbyists.
And, I *still* take in jobs just because I love doing the work.
When doing some 7+ wheel sets for a customer I added my own set at the end of the job when the machines were still set up , so I actually get to work on my own projects as an "add on". (Separate billing, of course.)
This keep my own large scale project creeping towards completion!!

Cheers

Jay in western Massachusetts

Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:43:49 -0000
From: "mudhen461"

Subject: K-27 shop drawings



this message is for everybody which was interested in a set of my K-27 drawings.

as i mentioned before, these are about 180 copies of the original D&RGW shop drawings for the K-27, from early 1900 'till the 1950's. therefore they cover several stages of "mudhen evolution". the set is about 85% complete, with only minor parts missing. the sizes of the prints range from 16" x 18"to 24" x 36".
i can make copies of the set available to interested parties for US$ 450.00 a set.

to order a set please e-mail me at (mudhen461@hotmail.com)

soni

Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:30:08 -0800
From: Greg & Susan Robinson

Subject: (ad) New Live Steam Video



THE MAGIC OF GRAND SCALE RAILROADING
VHS. 80+ minutes. Color. Digitally Mastered. $29.95 +s/h

We have updated the GSQ website with the information on our new video. This production features shop tours, cab rids, interviews, and lots of action shots of some spectacular trains. The main features are the Whiskey River Railway at the Little A-Merrick-A park (16" gauge, Marshall, Wisconsin), Milwaukee Zoo RR (15", Milwaukee, WI), the Hesston Steam Museum (14", 7.5", 24", 36", Hesston, IN), the Live Oak Canyon RR (15", Redlands, CA).

The Whiskey River and the Live Oak Canyon in particular have a narrow gauge feel to them.

There is also bonus footage from over a dozen other railroads visited during the GSQ TOUR 2001 in the Midwest.
More information and on-line purchasing available at: http://www.grandscales.com/video/

Thanks,
Greg

P.S. You'll love the bloopers at the end of the show.

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953, Red Bluff, CA 96080 USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 07:04:05 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Just to add my own $0.02, or less, of comments

.

Right on! While fortunately few and far between, I think all of us dealing with the "hobbyist" have had similar experiences and have our own horror stories.

One of mine that comes to mind is a fellow, obviously an adult, that kept sending me CRAYON DRAWINGS, IN MULTI COLOR, of what he would like built...with no mention of the scale or track gauge...

There are some WIERD dudes out there!

Rudy van WIngen
Como Roundhouse Products

Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 15:06:33 -0500
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Just to add my own $0.02, or less, of comments.



SPEAKING OF WIERD ....

hI cALVIN. WE ARE AT OUR DAUGHTERS PLACE INpA FOR thanksgiving and see tat I have the same problem with caps down here on a convoluted net connetion to the internet as I have up home.

WEATHER TURNING LOUSY UP HERE. Caps agan. Ready for FL.

Glad Russ Steeves got on this group list a week or soago with his take on how he changed Fitchburgh Northern #5. Its a dandy little steam engine.

New tape out on the resurrection of the WW&F. Good propoganda for us properly narrow gauge types.

C/H