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7-Plus-NGM Digest November 2003

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:50:23 -0700
From: "Chuck Hoelzen"

Subject: Re: Groovy Track



I am using "flat bar" welded steel rail. It is soft enough to roll the inside edge after only 100 to 200 wheel passes. The sharp edge and ends do cause wheel flange wear until the edge is rolled round.

I have considered a grinder to take the corner off.

Wheel grove is, as I see, more from wheel slip than running.

Steel and cast iron wheels quickly work harden the sruface and the original hardness dosn't have much effect.

Chuck

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:44:26 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: Groovy Track???



We at the Mosquito Junction Railroad Have used the bar stock groovy system in the past. When we changed to running narrow gauge, the heavier engines tended to round off the rail and groove the tire and flange. We were certain to make sure the rounded edge on the bar stock was facing up and inward. Still to much wear. We found that using a fairly hardened steel to machine wheels from, lessened the wheel wear, but still wore out the bar stock (rail). So being ok to use on 1.5" or smaller gauges, our heavier trains now run on west coast aluminum rail of 6012 hardness. Steel rail, with prototype demensions, will run real heavy equipment, but it is very expensive.

Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 22:12:03 -0800
From: "R.David S. CORMIE"

Subject: RE: Groovy Track



Ok it's time for me to jump in to the fray regarding the bar stock rail.

We have it on our club track and have had so for nearly thirty years.

It will never wear out.

We try to install it with the rounded edge inside and up but if we miss a section we just run an angle grinder down the section to knock off the corner. Our gauge is 7 5/8 and if you have the proper filets and taper on the wheels they track well.

Now as for wheel wear. Some of our riding cars are just in the last few years had their wheels renewed after hundreds and hundreds of actual miles on them over decades of use. Not too shabby. We have a set of articulated riding cars that get regularly overloaded with over 500 lbs per axle and they did wear out, but after four years and hundreds of miles of use. We replaced them with steel. A couple of years on them now and just like new.

My own engine has steel wheels and is fine with no wear on the wheels after banging around our track for about a decade.

If you are going to invest thousands of $$$ in an engine it just seems odd that you wouldn't invest a hundred bucks and a few evenings to put steel tires on the old gleaming beauty.

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:05:21 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Vancover Live Steamers



Yes that looks like the one that I was shown at Burnaby some years back very simple and works great. I was on your web site, there is that fellow, John Yardly, holding some sort of award, gee should be a paint brush as he and Steve made the passenger car at Train Mountain white, now the next time he comes up I wonder what color he will use? Gold like the award? Those two did a terrific job of painting on that by the way a great pair of guys.
Another thing that Woody asked about was the wear on wheels, from what I have heard and seen very little as hot rolled bar stock is somewhat round not square cornered like cold rolled which would wear wheels very bad. Am shure that you could verify this as you have lots of miles on some of your equipment there.
Boyd.

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 09:10:50 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Ties



I would put a section in with plastic ties, say on a curve and run it thru one season befor deciding to use them as once they give I dont think that they will return like wood will where the groove is for the rail.Just an idea to try befor going too far and having to redo things.
Boyd.

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 12:44:59 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Steel Wheels , Steel Rail and plastic ties



The reality is, tracks are getting longer, locomotive mileage is increasing and the trend is towards steel track generally.

Dennis Weaver's C19, Geoff Robinson's Big Boy and my Beyer-Garratt have all been fitted with 4140 steel tires during initial construction as a response to this trend.

My China Rail Pacific is now in the shop after a very busy high mileage season and will be fitted with Box Poc drivers and steel tires this winter.

The inconsistency of wood and of the preservatives to protect it. "Plastic ties" are simply the way to go.

Steel wheels, Steel Rail and "Plastic ties" only makes sense for those who prefer running their loco's to working on them and the on track.

Regards,

Trevor Heath

Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:55:32 -0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: Billmeyer and Small



Group,

I have always been interested in the very early years of Colorado narrow gauge, especially the D&RG. I have decided that my winter project (in addition to finishing my two locos and a flat car) will be a class 8 drop bottom gondola.
I have several questions that maybe someone on this list can answer.
First issue I see is the Billmeyer and Small link and pin pockets.
Does anyone make a casting for these?
Second is the chain that lifts and holds the doors.
Is there a source for super-small single-link chain? (preferably welded) I will need to wrap it around a 3/8" rod.

Roy Stevens

Date: 7 Nov 2003 00:58:04 -0000
From: 7-plus-NGM

Subject: New file uploaded to 7-plus-NGM



Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the 7-plus-NGM group.

File: Scale Dimension Conversions Too.pdf

Regards,

mrb37211

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 18:17:30 -0500 (EST)
From: "jim fieffer"

Subject: getting started



Hello, I have been a member of this group for a long time but am getting around to getting deeper into the hobby.
I would like to build a 2.5" K-27.
My son wants a 2.5" C-19.
Who supplies castings for these engines?
No, I can't afford to build both but I would like to contact the supplyers to see what is out there and how much it will cost.
If you guys have an opinion on one supplyer being better than another, I would also like to here about that.
I would appciate any help that you could provide.

Thanks, jim.

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:35:16 -0800
From: "Matt"

Subject: Re: getting started



Jim,

For the C-19 Coles' Power Models has the drawing and the paterns for the castings.
They are currently redoing the drawings on AutoCAD and they should be done with them by now.
I bought some drawings from them for a C&S Mogul and found them great to deal with.

The K-27 may be harder to track down.
I have heard that Ulin Locomotive Works was offering plans and castings, but I can't seem to find any current information for them right now.
The last address I had for them was:
1160 Lilac St.
Broomfield, CO 80020.
(303) 466-8241.
I don't know if this is current but probably a good place to start.
Truson Buegel also has plans for this locomotive as well as the K-36 and K-37.
However, I have found that he does not send the drawings after you place the order.
I sent him $300 for drawings and have been wating for them for the last 10 months!!!!
I WOULD NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM HIM!

Good Luck

Matt

Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:16:40 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: getting started



Jim;

I think Rudy may know where some pictures of Rich Ulin's K-27 are posted on the Internet. He just completed K-27, #464, a couple months ago and delivered it to a buyer in California.

David Hannah, III

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:09:17 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: 2.5 Scale



I think that Rudy at Como Roundhouse is offering some of the Conway items in that scale. Rich Uhln is offering the K-27 castings, they will be lost wax and beautiful like all of his offerings, you should see the engine marker lights he offers. The web sites can be found if they are available on the Train Mountain web site. Also the John Maxwell drawings of the Colorado and New Mexico narrow gauge equipment are still available. Rich also has a new steam engine available to get your feet wet in the hobby with, I haven't seen it yet but is a rocking beam one so the ones of us with clubs for hands can operate it without damaging anything. Boyd.

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:21:17 -0800
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Please HELP to identify the usual suspects



Hello All,

We are working up the "Special Features" of the Train Mountain 2003 Triennial DVD. We are going to be showing the Parade of Engines" in the form of still images taken from the video.

We could just show the photos and let everyone guess the identities of those on the screen, but we thought it would be more enjoyable for viewers to know who they're looking at.

If you had a free moment, we'd REALLY appreciate your input on the names of the engineers and the info on the engines. (Many of the engineers were clearly not the owners of the engines.)

The photos are on three web pages, beginning with:
http://www.7plusrailroader.com/parade/parade.html

Gratefully,
Greg Robinson

The Grand Scales Quarterly
7+ RAILROADER
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:16:22 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Please HELP to identify the usual suspects



Greg,
How much and when?? Some of the people I knew are on a separate post.
kind regards

Dennis

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:16:10 -0800
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Mistakes on TM captions



Dear All,

While we're on the subject of getting captions correct . . .

We'll be printing corrections on the mistaken identities in the Triennial article in 7+ RAILROADER Vol 11 #4.

Page 25 (top) Engineer on the point is Kevin Doe, not Dan Rankin as stated.

Page 25 (bottom) That Cli-Shay belongs to Rodney Cogliati, not Bill Jarvis nor Bill's Cascade Scenic RR. In the photo are Rodney and his wife Suzy.

Page 30 (top right) That Galloping Goose belongs to Marie Weaver, not Mike Moran.

Our apologies to everyone. If you are aware of more errors anywhere else in the magazine, please let us know.

Sincerely,
Greg R.

The Grand Scales Quarterly
7+ RAILROADER
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:00:18 -0800
From: "Charlie Meinershagen-Susan Weale"

Subject: Re: Please HELP to identify the usual suspects



Greg,

P.087a: Suasn Weale-Meinershagen
Redding, Calif.

P.087b:1925, Baldwin/Westingthouse, Class-D, Steeple Cab, Electric Locomotive
Owner: Charlie Meinershagen, Redding, Calif.

Charlie

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 09:14:20 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Mistakes on TM captions



Re: Caption Corrections Do I remember that therewas a recent article on the Anniversary run at the Pioneer valley Live Steamers in MA, fairly sure it was in 7+, where on the last page there were two uncaptioneds pictures. Pity. Top picture was of the estimable Russ Steeves sometime President and one ofthe leading dynamos of the Waushakum (sp?) Live Steamers. The litle beauty he is astride is #5, in my jaundiced opinion one of the best interpretations of the Fitchburg Northern Mogul class of live steam models.

I hope Russ or his friends see this so that I may urge him on to completing his current project, a Portland 0-4-4t Maine Two Footer. Introducing one of my favorite rants, as with the Fitchburg class, one cheats a bit on the down side. Rather than the technically correct 3 3/4" per foot, Russ is interpreting this (maybe Phillips and Rangely #1) so that ruling scale is the loading gauge on getting her into the back of his van. Be assured, from the bits and pieces I saw a couple of years ago, she'll have the proper extra narrow gauge look.

Cam Brown

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:25:31 -0000
From: "traincrazychapple"

Subject: building groovy track switch tracks



Hi everyone:
What welder system would be adequate to build a groovy switch as shown on the grovvy track website? Especially for a novice, which system would have the least learning curve?

Also, has anyone built a groovy stub switch? Grooving the ties for all the rails? It looks like it may be possible.
Thanks
Dick

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:37:12 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: building groovy track switch tracks



Any welder with ac or dc will be able to handle the needs but I would stay away from the little 110 volt units as they cant produce enough current to get good penetration.

If you have any trouble with the switch let me know.
They are built with flat bar welded on the bottom for ties and then the wood CrossTies are screwed on.

Vance,

Nickerson Welding & Repair
All Types & Machining Services
Full Service Repair & Construction
Of Large Scale Locomotives & Rolling Stock.
119 York Dr. Madisonville, TX. 77864
Day# 936-348-9444
Night# 936-348-2504

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:03:29 +1300
From: "Chris Draper"

Subject: RE: building groovy track switch tracks

Hi Dick,

I have built several Groovy track switches in various ways including grooving the sleepers to match the rest of the track etc. The best way so far is as follows:

Draw out the switch on a suitable flat surface - I have a large piece of Ply that I reuse each time

Lay out where all the sleepers will go and cut lengths of thin flat bar long enough to span all the rails at that location

Cut Straight Stock rail to length, drill for joiner holes and weld it to the steel 'sleepers' right above the line previously drawn.

As for welders - I use a relatively cheap 10A 220v single phase welder cranked up slightly higher than it should be for 2.5mm rods - but hey - we're welding real solid bar here! I'm more worried about penetration than blowing a hole (I use 30mmx10mm bar for the rails)

Then fabricate the frog and weld into place above your lines, but actually measuring off the already in place straight stock rail

Then I cut/drill/bend the curved stock rail and measuring from the straight stock rail and the frog weld it in place.

I have had a friend with a milling machine mill me some point closure rails - basically these are about 450mm long and the top 10mm of the bar is milled in a taper from a point at one end to the full width of the bar 300mm (1 foot) down the length. At this point I partially cut through the bar and bend it so the taper lines up with the rest of the bar and weld the cut closed again. You will need a matching pair of left-hand and right-hand blades for each switch.

The closure rails are made in a similar fashion - partially cut through the bar at each required 'kink' - bend it and reweld. Weld these into place measuring from their respective stock rails.

Once all the welding is done, I screw the assembly to wooden sleepers under each thin bar, and any other sleepers required to make the switch look 'right' can be glues in place under the rail - they only have to stay there until the switch is in place and ballasted - two pot epoxy works for me.

I can fabricate a switch from scratch in about eight hours using only a drill press, welder and angle grinder with a cut-off disk

Happy to snap a few pictures through the process of building the next one if you or anyone else is interested. As for you others that have done this - I would love to hear about any timesaving techniques you may have.

Chris Draper

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:17:51 -0700
From: "Richard H Chapple Sr"

Subject: RE: building groovy track switch tracks



Thanks Chris:
Yes, I'd sure like to see some photos of switch building in progress.
Thanks
Dick

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:21:07 -0700
From: "Richard H Chapple Sr"

Subject: RE: building groovy track switch tracks



Thanks Vance:
I'm looking at possibly buying an oxy/acetylene setup for a minimum learning curve, I guess the trick with gas, other than all the safety precautions and care of equipment startup and shutdown is to get both metals heated evenly??

Thanks
Dick

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:35:20 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: building groovy track switch tracks



Skip the torch idea for welding and get a small 225 amp welder to weld with.

I have used the bar rail with super success in a portable 80' x 160' and it can be built in the shop and used anywhere.

I rolled several different radiuses and built them in jigs to hold them perfectly in place.

I used two different types of joining the rails with great luck on my second design.

It was 1/2'' x 1'' hot rolled and with many miles down neither my loco or rail is showing any wear.

Vance,

Nickerson Welding & Repair
All Types & Machining Services
Full Service Repair & Construction
Of Large Scale Locomotives & Rolling Stock.
119 York Dr. Madisonville, TX. 77864
Day# 936-348-9444
Night# 936-348-2504

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:42:15 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: building groovy track switch tracks



Dick I forgot to mention that I will be glad to build them for you if you would like.

Vance,

Nickerson Welding & Repair
All Types & Machining Services
Full Service Repair & Construction
Of Large Scale Locomotives & Rolling Stock.
119 York Dr. Madisonville, TX. 77864
Day# 936-348-9444
Night# 936-348-2504

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:19:13 -0700
From: "Richard H Chapple Sr"

Subject: RE: building groovy track switch tracks



What would be the costs of building one??
Thanks for your fast replies Vance.
Dick
PS some people would say if I had to ask, I probably can't afford it but…..I have to ask, I'm getting' old and Grandpa and Granddaughter have some train playing to do.
I'm looking at 7 ½" gauge probably; 5" gauge is a distant second right now.

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:30:44 EST
From: VANCENICK@aol.com

Subject: Re: building groovy track switch tracks



Dick it took the better part of a day and a half to make one so to make one with say 42' radius would be about $350.00 either left or right.

Vance,

Nickerson Welding & Repair
All Types & Machining Services
Full Service Repair & Construction
Of Large Scale Locomotives & Rolling Stock.
119 York Dr. Madisonville, TX. 77864
Day# 936-348-9444
Night# 936-348-2504

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:15:20 -0800
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Re: Mistakes on TM captions



Cam,
Thanks for the input. We'll put that in the file to run. Any suggestions on a caption for the second photo?

All the Best,
Greg

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:32:43 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Welding



The quality 110v units that are on the market work quite well for small projects as was demonstrated by my welding instructor at the community college here.
These were wire feed models using .030 wire,no wire doesn't penetrate but will work for what we do as good as stick welding. For boilers that is another story best left to the pros only in my book. I have both and am certed in stick low high.
The best is to take a course in welding before doing it as even something like a little weld on track can cause serious injury if it fails always keep that in mind.
Good luck.
Boyd Butler

Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:49:27 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: FW: China Steam Books



Many of you have asked about China Steam and the photo's I pass along, here is a place to obtain two really excellent photograph books on the subject.
Standard gage and Narrow Gage.

These two books plus the brief reference to Steam on 4 Continents Vol 4 China would have to be considered the photographic reference for China.

TH

21st Century Extreme Steam has sold very well and I have taken the opportunity when reordering to restock with the original Extreme Steam.

These are available at a considerable discount to the recommended retail price:

21st Century Extreme Steam GBP £ 30, U$ 51, Euros 43
Extreme Steam GBP £ 15, U$ 26, Euros 22
Both books together just GBP £ 40, U$ 68, Euros 58

These prices are for surface mail anywhere in the world, airmail rates on application.

As usual I can accept payment by sterling or U$ cheque (a small surcharge will apply for the latter), PayPal (please specify GBP) or appropriate cash (use registered mail.

I also have just two copies left of "Steam on Four Continents, Volume 4 China". This book is now effectively out of print. GBP £ 15, U$ 26, Euros 22, surface mail anywhere in the world.

Rob Dickinson
My sites: http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/internat.htm
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/javatour/java1997.htm
Email: robdickinson@dial.pipex.com
Home: 5, Ash Lane, Monmouth, NP25 5FJ, UK
Tel/Fax: +(44) 1600 713 405

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 06:50:22 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: Riding Rules



Well there goes what was always in the back of everyone mind at LALS, I do hope that things don't come north of the border like so many have and that others have to live with. Now lets see if we can prevent the same from happening to other tracks in other states. This is what Quentin was talking about preventing.
Boyd.

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 08:45:09 -0800
From: "Geoffrey Kail"

Subject: RE: Riding Rules



What are you referring to Boyd?
Geoff

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:07:28 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: RE: Riding Rules



I'm with you on that one.
I strongly believe in deleting unnecessary portions in replies, but not quoting anything at all is not too helful either.
Arno

(sig. line) To ALL:
Please TOP quote by adding your reply to the bottom of the message, after deleting unnecessary portions.
Also, check your options to add the > (greater than chevron) automatically to every line of quoted text.

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:28:47 -0000
From: "traincrazychapple"

Subject: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



Hi Friends:
I am building a backyard railroad, I can squeeze out up to 15 foot radius curves in the back yard, around the house I may get up to 25 foot radius. I will do both, however the backyard is the best bet to start with.
I know this is really tight but what is the maximum size equipment I can possibly run on 15 ft radius? Would I be able to run short two truck diesels? Rolling stock, 4 ft, 5 ft, what's the max lentgh on these to run?
Or will I have to go to 1" scale?
Thanks for your help.
Dick

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:07:40 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Re: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



Dick,
I have a picture that i could scan and send of one ugly slightly chubby engineer (me) running a Hunslet at fellow VIME member Parker Williams track up Island from Victoria. His whole railroad is located in the side yard of his house on a standard lot and it is 7 1/2" gauge. No problems with his radii which i believe is 13' also. Lemme know if you want to see the picture.
kind regards
Dennis

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 14:13:42 -0800
From: "Hugh Smith"

Subject: Re: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



Dick,

The limiting factor in determining what will negotiate a 15' radius is not the car or engine length, but rather the rigid wheel base( the distance between the axles).
Take a freight car for example.
In 1-1/2" scale the rigid wheel base of a typical truck is 10" - 12".
The car could be 10' long and it would still negotiate 30' curves.
You mentioned a small diesel switcher type of loco.
As long as the rigid wheel base is small it'll turn fine.
With a diesel, however, you have to be concerned with the drive mechanism.
If it's a shaft drive, the universal joints need a long slip spline because the shaft is going to get longer on the curves.
Look at a Shay's drive shafts to see what I mean.
Chain or belt drives probably won't work.
Hydraulic, as long as the motor is on the truck, would be ideal.
I don't have any numbers as to how big a wheel base will fit a 30' curve, but I know a 12" will.
Been there, done that.

Hugh Smith

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:16:52 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



Dennis,
when you post it, send me a copy please.
Arno

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 16:13:35 -0800
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: TM parade photos



Much thanks to all who have helped in identifying many of the folks in the TM parade of engines.
Almost a third of them have been given a positive ID. That only leaves about a hundred engines and engineers. Any additional names you could share with us would be greatly appreciated.

The updated photo page with the remaining ULSO's (unidentified live steam operators) is at:
http://www.7plusrailroader.com/parade/parade.html

Please feel free to forward the link to your friends.

Thanks a million,
Greg Robinson

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:57:42 -0500
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Re: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



How about posting it to the list so we all can see.

Pat

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:40:45 -0700
From: "Richard H Chapple Sr"

Subject: RE: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



Yes Dennis, that would be great.
Thanks
Dick

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:59:47 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Tight Curves



Hi all, There is a file called tight curves in the photos section if you care to peak. The locomotive "Suzi" and the railroad are the principals. The fat guy just happened to be there when the shutter was snapped.
kind regards
Dennis

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:06:36 +0200
From: "Johan"

Subject: RE: Smallest radius practical in 7 1/2" gauge.



Dennis,

Sorry to be so forward, but could you please "cc" a copy to me as well?

Johan.

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:35:26 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
From: "Boyd Butler"

Subject: To All This is What I was Refering To About Riding Rules



Los Angeles Live Steamers
P.O. Box 2156
Toluca Lake, CA 91610-0156

November 13, 2003

Dear Fellow LALS Member,

As you have probably heard, an incident occurred at LALS on November 2, 2003 involving a train hauling the public. Your Board of Directors wants you to know what happened, what the current situation is, and what we are doing about it.

On Sunday, November 2, a train hauling the public derailed near Minden. A small number of passengers got some scrapes, cuts, and abrasions. We called 911. The passengers were all treated by city paramedics and taken to Providence St. Joseph's Hospital in Burbank. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries and everybody was sent home following treatment. Park rangers, LAPD and paramedics were at the scene. The press covered the incident. We promptly notified our insurance company.

The State of California, Division of Occupational Safety and Health, Permanent Amusement Ride Unit (DOSH) contacted LALS the next day. DOSH was established by state law to monitor rides at amusement parks like Disneyland, Magic Mountain, etc. After visiting the facility and inspecting the railroad, DOSH asserted jurisdiction over LALS as an "amusement ride" and, as a result, they have determined that operations involving the public are subject to their regulation and control.
DOSH is also preparing a formal accident report on the incident. Although they were responding to this accident, DOSH representatives acknowledged that they had intended to commence regulating live steam groups throughout the State of California. The accident merely hastened what may have been the inevitable.

Significantly for LALS, DOSH is requiring that LALS now comply with their extensive safety requirements and equipment and facilities inspection and certification program. Pending DOSH's certification of LALS' compliance with these requirements, DOSH has requested that we suspend our Sunday public operation and all activities involving the public. Frankly, to fully comply with what DOSH is requesting would be quite onerous and costly. We do not know how long it would take us to comply and, consequently, how long we would have to remain closed to the public. The Los Angeles Recreation and Parks Department is also involved in the matter, and has been very supportive of LALS.

LALS has responded in a number of ways. Already, several members have spent many hours over a number of days with DOSH field personnel onsite assisting them in the accident investigation and explaining who we are and what we do. The LALS Board of Directors has appointed a committee comprised of Ron Bergmann, Jay Carsman, Rowland Fogarty, Dave Johnson and Peter Fuad to oversee and coordinate our response. We are working with DOSH and the city to develop a safety program that we can live with. At the same time, we are exploring other issues, such as whether DOSH's rules and regulations should be applicable to an operation such as ours. We are also addressing the financial impact to LALS.

For the time being, in view of the foregoing, here are the restrictions on LALS operations:

1. Only members and immediate family members may ride and operate trains at any time. There will be no public hauling operation.
2. The Walt Disney Barn and the Steam Plant will continue to be open to the public from 11 am to 3 pm on the third Sunday of each month. During the hours that they are open and operating, there will be no train operations of any kind, including operation by members.
3. Any party will be limited only to members and their immediate family. Unfortunately, this means that members may not invite friends and the like as guests to their parties, whether or not any trains are operating at that time. We are requesting that members keep a list of the name of each party guest.
4. These restrictions may change even during the suspension period. Other than the above, LALS is open for operation to members.


Your Board of Directors has decided to be very proactive in addressing the situation. We are aware that this matter could have a severe impact on us and on the live steaming hobby statewide and, for that matter, nationwide. I am confident that we are doing all that can be done to address the situation we are in. We believe that LALS' reputation for safety and public service over the past 47 years will be a significant help.

In the meantime, the Board needs your support, patience and understanding.
The committee we have appointed is coordinating all our efforts. If you have any suggestions or comments, please contact one of the committee members. As you can imagine, the telephones of Board and committee members are ringing off the hook right now, so please send your suggestions by email or in written notes.

As there are significant further developments, we will keep you informed.

Sincerely,
/s/ Lew Soilbelman
President
Los Angeles Live Steamers

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:35:36 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Tight Curves



Trust you to mention 'tight curves' and 'Suzi' and then show us a picture of yourself.
;-.)
Thanks,
Arno

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:52:44 -0800
From: "Geoffrey Kail"

Subject: RE: To All This is What I was Refering To About Riding Rules



Thank you for the follow up Boyd, I must agree that this is not a good thing.
Geoff

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:19:21 -0800
From: Greg Robinson

Subject: Almost there



Again, we cannot thank everyone enough for taking so much time to identify the people in the TM Parade. In the last 24 hours we have checked off over 50 more engineers and engines.

There are only another 50 to go. But these will be the hardest ones . . . those not as well known by so many people. Please share the link below with your friends who might know these faces and engines.
We'd hate to have these good folks listed as "unknown" in the video.
http://www.7plusrailroader.com/parade/parade.html

If you've looked at the page before, remember to hit "Reload" or "Refresh" so that you get the updated page with only those photos not yet identified.

Thanks a Million,
Greg Robinson

7+ RAILROADER
The Grand Scales Quarterly
Robinson & Associates
P.O. Box 8953,
Red Bluff, CA 96080
USA
530-527-0141
fax 530-527-0420

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:06:14 -0000
From: "tebee2"

Subject: more tight curves



Hi folks

Just to add to the discussion on minimum radius curves for 7+ gauges I've put a photo into the tight curves folder of the photos section of a French 7.25 (well 184mm actually) line.



Found this on another Yahoo group. It shows a train about to go round a 2.7 meter ( about 9 ft) radius curve. To make life more interesting it on a very precarious bridge suspended over a pond! One wonders how many passengers need to learn how to swim. There are several more photo of the line in the voiemetrique group incuding one of a point(switch) of 2m (6.5ft) radius!

Tom

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:03:31 -0700
From: "Richard H Chapple Sr"

Subject: RE: more tight curves



Hi again folks:
I have been going through my back issues of Live Steam and found a backyard 7 ½" gauge railroad with 5 foot radius, 6 foot radius and even a 4.5 foot radius curves.
This is the Banana Junction Tramway written up in Live steam Mar 1987. Nice article.
This trolley was 24" wide by 9 foot long also, and very stable. The gentleman had added some concrete below the floor to give more stability. His note on minimum curves was" curves as low as a 4-foot radius are practical for wheelbases up to 18", provided every curve is guarded and broad-gauged up to 1/8" over the standard 7 ½"."
So it appears that I would be okay with 12.5 foot radius curves running normal to short rolling stock and an Sw of some kind, or box cab etc.
Thanks for the neat pictures posted as well of the tight radius track.
Dick

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 01:11:18 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: more tight curves



Many years ago in the mid to late 1970's LALS had a 20ft. radius "Trash Siding" off of "Webb yard". It had a Right hand point switch with a spiral easment to 20ft. Radius at the frog point. Then a curve to another spiral easement to a short straight at 90 degrees to the Webb yard track it came from. David Rohrer tried his rigid chassis SR&RL 0-4-4(T) on it and initially could get to the frog before the blind rear drivers were in danger of derailing. We then added a pair of rails adjacent to the running rails toward the inside of the turn and streaching from the frog wing nd guard rails to about the middle of the exit curve near the shoort straight. after the addition, the 0-4-4(T) would go all the way to the short straight endl of siding with out derailing. David later modified the engine to reduce the rigid length and put flanges on all drivers so the added rails became redundant.
At one time I was planning to put a track around my home using 20ft. radius curves but ran into a clearance problem with a 18in Dia Magnolia "Tree" shading the bedroom side of the house. My Mother decided I would not remove the tree so I abandoned the track plan. I had researched a NG 2-6-6-2(T)(Uintah Railway) that ran on 66 degree of curve (angle subtended by a 100ft chord) and 7.5percent grade uncompensated.
In 2.5in scale that would have been about 18ft radius with some interesting overhangs in the curves.
If you use spirial easements between tangent and curve track and widen the gauge slightly within the curve you should have no porblem with short wheel base trucks going around the curves. The length of cars will determine the minimum inside and outside clearances required to run. for very tight radiuses you may need to use radius mount couplers, and radius ended cars (see interurban or streetcar designs).
I hope this is of use to you.
Best Regards,
William j. Stewart

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:38:59 -0800 (PST)
From: paul garin

Subject: Re: Digest Number 890



HI DICK,
WE PRODUCE TRACK DOWN TO 12.5' RADIUS. WE HAVE ACTUALLY PRODUCED PANELS DOWN TO 6 3/4' RADIUS (GREAT FOR AROUND THE CHRISMAS TREE). IT WORKS - KIND OF - BUT NOT RECCOMENDED. 10' SEEMS TO BE THE PRACTICAL, MINIUM LIMIT. AS LONG AS THE RIGID WHEEL BASE OF ALL TRUCKS IS 12" OR LESS, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY TROUBLE.
I WOULD WOULD STICK TO CARS 5' OR SHORTER. THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS MOST OFTEN INSUFFICIENT COUPLER SWING,OR COUPLER SHAFT LENGTH, CAUSING CAR CORNERS TO COLLIDE. LACK OF EITHER IS A SURE DERAILMENT! SMALL RADIUS INDUSTRIAL RAILROADS CAN BE A LOT OF FUN.
BEST OF LUCK,
PAUL GARIN

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 08:00:03 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: tight curves



`If you are running on less than a 20" radius, i would not use anything but an 0-4-0. I have some 20" curves that the kids engines run on three of them 0-4-0's and one 0-6-0 with the center drivers blind.
All engines are 5' and under in length.
When we have some BIG engines, such as our 2-6-0 Sweet Creek and the 4-8-4 northern we need a minimum of 48 and 50' radius.
This is just my two cents worth.

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:07:47 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: more tight curves



More two cents worth:
Re Dave Rohmer's two foot prototype 0-4-4T and tight curves-
Too many years ago with the late Don Marshall, and his machine shop doing the heavy lifting, I started "doing" one of the little Maine two foot Forneys. I think it was Dave I talked too re navigating tight curvs ( there is a 55 + or minus at ALS and I was worried about the long wheelbase) I recall that he had "Masonized" his engine pivoting the engine part of the loco under the boiler. Again recalling, he had experianced considerable flange wear before the "Masonization" which solved that problem.

Cam Brown

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:30:42 -0500
From: Arno Martens

Subject: Re: Re: more tight curves



That's interesting, Cam, how did he solve the flexing steam pipe sealing?
Arno

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:38:08 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: more tight curves



Dunno. Ask Dave.

Cam Brown

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:12:08 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: Narrow Gauge 0-4-0 or 0-4-0T



Is anyone in this group, that does not have an engine, or is contiplating building one??
I started a group that will have a construction series on the 2 1/2" scale engine Elda. I have two of these engines in an american style, and starting to build a third for my 8 y.o. grandson, so i can have mine back.
The group is in yahoo at:

groups.yahoo.com/group/narrowgaugebuilders

And welcome to all.

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:04:56 +0000
From: Michael Adams

Subject: Relaying Newliston Railway



I have posted some pictures showing the ongoing work relaying the complete railway.
The original was in 3 1/2 & 5' gauge only in a circle with passing sidings (loops) It was decided that 7 1/4 was needed so an outer circle was agreed in 5" & 7 1/4 The weather has been very kind to us having very little rain in the UK this year, so that progress has been very rapid and we have kept the original track running.
The engine is battery electric which I built a number of years ago but has not seen much use so far but with 7 1/4 on this track hopefully this will change.

Regards Mike Adams