7+-NGM-logo The

7-Plus-NGM Digest December 2001

Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 18:56:57 -0000
From: minrail@hotmail.com

Subject: RMI Railworks Website Update

See the updated Roll Models website for some great pictures of new products!


Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:29:23 -0000
From: thesteamshed@mweb.co.za

Subject: Just Joined!

Greeting to all list members!

I've just joined this "group" / "list" and I hope I will gain further knowledge on large scale Live Steam modelling and railroading!

I currently busy building a South African Railways Class 6A (4-6-0) tender loco, to run on 7.25" gauge. (approx. 1/6th scale).

Should anybody would like to know more about SAR locomotive please place you message on this "group" / "list", and I'll try my best to help the guys out.

Steamy Greeting, from a hot and sunny South Africa.
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:17:48 +1300
From: "Hansen-Hill"
Subject: Fw: [PT] Digest Number 208

Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 04:32:04 -0600
From: Darrell Klompmaker
Subject: 15" Gauge Steam Locomotive Available

For those of you who are familiar with Delton Schrock and The Old Wakarusa Railroad (Hoot Toot & Whistle American Standard built by Sandley). The steam engine has not been sold if any one is interested they can contact me off the list for the contact information.

Darrell Klompmaker

Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 19:06:32 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Getting back in the steam saddle...

"If my life weren't so close to a tragedy I'd be a comedy of errors."

That's enough griping about the past few months of my life.

Just this past weekend I finally got back to doing some serious CAD work and wanted to toot my own horn a little. Yes, I take pride in my work even if it's just electrons & paper.

A friend is a serious "gear head" and wants to build a West Side Lumber Co. #10, so a couple of years ago he dumpped a pile of Lima blueprints in my lap. While regathering my papers on Baldwin 4-4-0s I found the Lima prints and let them divert me for a few hours.

I've put 5 CAD rendered images in the Photo section of the group of some early returns on frame design. (http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/7-plus-NGM/lst)

Some statistics on the engine to-be:

70ton 3 Truck Shay of 1928 (Possibly worlds largest 3' gauge shay)
Buit for Pickering Lumber Co. (Later "West Side Lumber Co.")

Scale: 2.5"
Gauge: 7.5"

Bore: 2.5"
Stroke: 3.125"

Rigid Wheel Base: 10.83" (each of the 3 trucks)
Driving Wheel Base: 100.5"

Drive Wheel Dia: 7.1"
Gear Ratio: 1:2.25
Speed at normal (400rpm) operation: 3.75mph
(2 hours 56 Minutes for the 11 mile Trainmountain Mainline)

Indicated Horsepower @ 140psi.: 3.1hp
Calculated Tractive effort @ 140psi.: 558lbs

Engine Frame: 3" I-Beam 82.45" long.
Engine Width: 21.25"

Boiler: 12" Dia. pipe with 1st course reduced to match 10" Dia. pipe.

Only a few detail parts (coupler pockets, polling pockets, truss rod castings) from Richard Ulin's shays will fit this engine, the rest my friend plans to carve from solid or weld up. Unfortunatly he's not interreted in any type of production run for this engine, which could also make a WSL #8, #9 or Oahu Railway & Land Co. #44. :-(

Well, thank you all for reading this far, I do appreciate it. :-)

Happy Holidays,
Curtis F.

Isometric view of the engine and tender fames.

Looking Forward from the rear.

Dead on side view of the frames.

Isometric close-up view of the tender.

View of the tender frame from an earlier stage.

Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:32:38 -0600
From: "Ron Koehler"

Subject: Re: Getting back in the steam saddle...

Rich Ulin
1160 Lilac St.
Broomfield, Co 80020
(303) 466-8241

He offers castings for such a locomotive.

Ron Koehler

Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:48:22 -0000
From: "Ronald"

Subject: Hi all out there I need your help


I Ronald up to now have build a 0-4-4 O&K 0-4-4 O&K like they use in JAVA and a 0-6-6 Decauville from 1 WW all on 7 1/4 with injectors, steam braking etc last 12 yaers

NOW me and my friend we have 35 acres ground near the ocean in France


so we need a plan for a good performer, passenger hauling steam engine, sorry but not western style but a small big one can be Plantation up to K 27,28,36,38 well I know sometime a small 040 or 030 can be a better performer as a big beauty and be even bigger than ......
It should be a big one as on the ground will be a small steam museum, and the train has to run all the days.....


Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:27:44 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Getting back in the steam saddle...


May want to consider changing the ratio to 1.50/1 then won't hold up traffic on the TrainMountain run.

Last month at the Riverside Live Steamer Fall Meet, there was a two truck shay running, but the ratio was almost 1/1, so the locomotive was very fast.

Just may thoughts.

David Hannah, III

Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:33:01 EST
From: davidh8602@aol.com

Subject: Re: Hi all out there I need your help


Some RLS members are building an Allen Mogul in 3" scale to run on 15" gauge track and I think someone may build the Railroad Supply Mikado in 3" scale also.

Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 05:15:50 -0000
From: "Curtis S. Ferrington"

Subject: Re: Hi all out there I need your help


FYI Alexander Gramm Bell originally wanted people to answer his phone with "Ahoy." It was Thomas Edision that convinced him that "Hello" might be a better choice. Edison got "Hello" from time that he spent in the Appalchian (is that spelled correctly?) Mountains where the people would communicate by hollering across the valleys, and the way to get someones attention was by yelling "Ha-lo". Science later showed that the "h" and "l" sounds are amongst the top sounds that will travel long distances.

Anyway, on to 15" gauge!

You need to ask this in the 5inchsteamtrains yahoo group, I know you're a member there and there's more grand scale people over there.

Have you tried the Hillcrest Shops? http://5inchsteam.8k.com/

AND Historic Railway Consultants? http://home.earthlink.net/~wsflco/hrc.htm

H.R.C. and Hillrest advertise a 5" scale 15" gauge 0-4-0, but they don't advertise the custom work that they can do. These guys, thanks to an extensive network of friends, can build just about anything you want. And if you want english stylings and they say they can't do it, have them contact me (they have my phone number) and I'll show them what needs to be done. ;-)

Try giving them a hollar,

Curtis F.

Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:34:38 -0800
From: Russ Wood

Subject: Re: Getting back in the steam saddle...

David, Curtis,

There are plnety of sidings to duck into to let the speeders by! :o) The only problem I would have with a very slow speed engine is that the 3 1/2 hour ride would become reeeeeaaaallllyyyy long! :o)

Russ Wood
Chiloquin, Oregon

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:30:03 -0800
From: "Pat Turner"

Subject: Free Time on my Hands!

To all, as of today I am temporally UNemployed! I expect this to last a couple of months, but no longer. I hope to back to work by March 1st at the very latest.
What does this mean to you? Well, I could use some work/income if you need anything done? Models built? Web pages? Photography? Anyone have need of a real FRA qualified RR engineer/conductor? Please reply off line with any offers/questions to: fecrr@mindspring.com
Beyond that it means I will be doing some real modeling after I get some Honey-Do's done! Starting to work on some trains today, don't tell my wife though.

Pat Turner
NMRA/SER Piedmont Div. Super.

Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:52:07 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Just Joined!

Welcome Gabby!

We're always interested in the oddball (I have license to apply this term to others as I am a Maine 2 ft. freak) modelers on 7+ gauge model track. Eternally regret having lost a tape of a Maxi #7 running in SA. Always eager to promote this sort of activity can you, nay will you contact me off list toexchange newsa, with pix is to be hoped on your 1/6 sized ten wheeler. Bob Williams , ed of a ng newsletter "7+ Railroader" is always trying to pry copy out of me.

Cam Brown

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:47:28 +1300
From: "Grant Alexander"

Subject: Latest on my Petrol Electric Loco

Hi Guys and Gals,

It's been a while since I brought up a bunch of questions about running direct petrol/electric without going through a battery, well thanks to a whole lot of good advice and encouragement, tonight the loco moved under it's own power for the first time, and I even tried sitting on it and it moved me too, a momentous occassion at Squirrel Valley Railway. My first truly scratchbuilt loco, and it runs.

There's still a heap of work to do, but I can definitly advise that 100% yes, you can control an alternator by direct control of the field windings, and the speed of the loco can successfully be controlled from here. It's a pity that reversing can't be affected so easily as the output of the alternator is rectified AC, and it doesn't matter which way round the field windings are powered, the final DC output is the same. But, I was sent a great big relay from a WW2 plane that operates on 24V and has HUGE contacts which will be my reversing relay.

As for the body work, the painting is nearly finished, in fact it's just the stripes that remain to do, I have the handrails then to install, and from there it's just basically detail's, lots of details. And most importantly, the cab space has remained clear of obstructions, so I will be able to detail the cab afterall.

Will post photo's in the archive section when I get some!

Grant Alexander,
Squirrel Valley,
New Zealand.

Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 08:52:38 -0800
From: "Rudolph P. van Wingen"

Subject: FW: Armed Forces Pay

On 12 Oct, Ms Cindy Williams (from Laverne and Shirley TV show) wrote a piece for the Washington Times denouncing the pay raise(s) coming to service members this year - citing that the stated 13% wage gap was bogus.

A young airman from Hill AFB responds to her article below. He ought to get a bonus for this!

Ms. Williams: I just had the pleasure of reading your column of 12 Oct, "Our GIs earn enough" and I am a bit confused. Frankly, I'm wondering where this vaunted overpayment is going, because as far as I can tell, it disappears every month between DFAS (The Defense Finance and Accounting Service) and my bank account. Checking my latest leave and earnings statement LES), see that I make $1,117.80, before taxes. After taxes, I take home $874.20. When I run that through Windows' Calculator, I come up with an annual salary of $13,413.60 before taxes, and $10,490.40 after.

I work in the Air Force Network Control Center (AFNCC), where I am part of the team responsible for the administration of a 25,000-host computer network. I am involved with infrastructure segments, specifically with Cisco Systems equipment. A quick check under jobs for Network Technicians in the Washington, DC area reveals a position in my career field, requiring three years experience with my job. Amazingly, this job does NOT pay $13,413.60 a year, nor does it pay less than this. No, this job is being offered at $70,000 to $80,000 per annum. I'm sure you can draw the obvious conclusions.

Also, you tout increases to Basic Allowance for Housing and Basic Allowance for Subsistence (housing and food allowances, respectively) as being a further boon to an already overcompensated force. Again, I'm curious as to where this money has gone, as BAH and BAS were both slashed 15% in the Hill AFB area effective in January 00.

Given the tenor of your column, I would assume that you have NEVER had the pleasure of serving your country in her armed forces. Before you take it upon yourself to once more castigate congressional and DOD leadership for attempting to get the families in the military's lowest pay brackets off AFDC, WIC, and food stamps, I suggest that you join a group of deploying soldiers headed for Saudi. I leave the choice of service branch up to you.

Whatever choice you make, though, opt for the SIX month rotation: it will guarantee you the longest possible time away from your family and friends, thus giving you full "deployment experience."

As your group prepares to board the plane, make sure to note the spouses and children who are saying good-bye to their loved ones. Also take care to note that several families are still unsure of how they'll be able to make ends meet while the primary breadwinner is gone-obviously they've been squandering the vast piles of cash the DOD has been giving them.

Try to deploy over a major holiday; Christmas and Thanksgiving are perennial favorites. And when you're actually over there, sitting in a DFP (Defensive Fire Position, the modern-day foxhole), shivering against the cold desert night, and the flight sergeant tells you that there aren't enough people on shift to relieve you for chow, remember this: trade whatever MRE you manage to get for the tuna noodle casserole or cheese tortellini, and add Tabasco to everything.

Talk to your loved ones as often as you are permitted; it won't nearly be long enough or often enough, but take what you can get and be thankful for it.

You may have picked up on the fact that I disagree with most of the points you present in your op-ed piece. But, tomorrow from Sarajevo, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

You see, I am an American fighting man, a guarantor of your First Amendment rights and every other right you cherish. On a daily basis, my brother and sister soldiers worldwide ensure that you and people like you can thumb your collective nose at us, all on a salary that is nothing short of pitiful and under conditions that would make most people cringe. We hemorrhage our best and brightest into the private sector because we can't offer the stability and pay of civilian companies. And you, Ms. Williams, have the gall to say that we make more than we deserve?

Rubbish! A1C Michael Bragg Hill AFB AFNCC



Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:04:24 -0000
From: "fredhaskey"

Subject: Re: FW: Armed Forces Pay

Er, Um, No,

Check out http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/cindywilliams.htm

In summary, wrong Cindy Williams, wrong date, wrong paper. Nice response from the airman though...

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:08:44 -0800
From: "Ken Burns"

Subject: Re: Re: FW: Armed Forces Pay

Well this Cindy Williams has shown that she is terribly over educated to the point of being an air head! As I recall, I made the lofty sum of $120 per month which included combat duty pay in Vietnam in '68. And yes, "Nice response from the airman though..."
Ken Burns

Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 19:21:14 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Re: FW: Armed Forces Pay - an apology

To all 7+ NGM Members - AN APOLOGY

Please accept my apology for posting this bogus message to the Group; I never intendted to do that. My intent was to send it to BOB WILLIAMS, Editor of the 7+ Railroader but I have just installed a new SPAM eliminator and it posted the 7+ NGM address to my mail box.

I do not believe that this or any group is the place to post such items, bogus or not...


Rudy van Wingen

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:20:02 +1300
From: "Robert S Logan"

Subject: Re: Digest Number 447

Regards Armed Forces Pay, What has that to do with Model Engineering?
Railways in Miniature, or a Narrow Gauge Enthusiast Forum?
Bob Logan,
N Z Railways.
New Zealand

Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:10:21 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: Re: FW: Armed Forces Pay - an apology

Great Latin.


Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:00:08 -0600
From: Tom Artzberger

Subject: construction on the RGS20's starting

Hi Fellow narrow gaugers

I just wanted to let everyone know that I will be starting the frame parts for the Rio Grande Southern #20 in a couple of weeks. If anyone is interested in any parts for this locomotive now would be a good time to contact me. You can get more information on my Pike lake and Eastern Hartford Shops web page at http://www.nconnect.net/~artzberger.


Tom Artzberger
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 22:24:44 -0500
From: John Pilling
Subject: Re: Free Time on my Hands!

Hi Pat,
Saw your post concerning being out of work. Sorry I don't have anything to have you do. I'm out of work also recovering from back and foot surgery.
My reason for writing is the result of seeing your interest in Sn3.
Would like your opinion on whether or not there might be a market in Sn3 for domes to fit the various imported steam locomotives similiar to what I've been doing in On3. Would appreciate hearing from you.
Pilling Scale Models

Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:13:28 -0000
From: "dmmcomo"

Subject: Forward from DSP&P List - 7+ needs to follow suit

Date: Tue Dec 11, 2001 9:48 am
From: hatch@r...
Subject: Long old messagees

Everyone please pay attention.

Several members are including the old text when they reply to a message.


It clogs the archive files.
It makes it VERY dificult to download the meassages on a sticky server.
All you have to do is use your delete key and get rid of the old message when you reply. This is very disrespectfull of the olther members who have to wade through all the old message that they've ALLREADY READ.
Please please please stop doing this. And stop right now.
No More.
Very very bad form on this list.
Thankyou for your co-operation.
-Stephen Hatch
List administrator

Forwarded by
Rudy van Wingen

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:47:39 +1300
From: "Grant Alexander"

Subject: New Loco at Squirrel Valley Railway

The good news is that we completed our first track trials of the new loco last weekend and basically it went very well. The loco is a true Petrol/Electric loco, 7 gauge built to 2" scale to represent a 3'6" prototype loco. There are a few pictures of it's construction in the 7+ archives, but I have yet to post a finished picture of it. All up weight came out at 210kg.

I found the loco to be very powerfull even tho it's only running 24V 20 amp motors, but there are FOUR of them. The alternator I located is ex-army and is rated to give 28V and 140 amps, and driving this is a new Briggs and Stratton 3.5HP 4 stroke motor. Although technically this is perhaps a little underpowered, in reality it does everything required of it (so far) at only about half power. Remember here in New Zealand we rarly haul more than two passenger cars (as well as my engineers trolley and a caboose) so the drawbar loading isn't that great.

I did experience a couple of problems, firstly, after my completing a few laps being very carefull I tried winding it up some. Well, it went VERY fast and cornered like it was on rails! Actually it IS on rails I guess but you know what I mean! Anyway, after I realised I was going a bit quick i shut the controller down and there was a bit of a *POP* and that was it! Upon closer examination I discovered that I had let the smoke out of the FET's and a big diode in the controller, in fact you could see the holes on the FET's where the smoke had escaped. Seems the back EMF pulse from the alternators field windings was bigger than I had anticipated and it took out the protecting diode, and then of course anything else in the controller it could find.

Well, that was a little dissappointing but it didn't stop me cause I simply wired first 12V then 24V direct across the field windings. This really made the loco fly, but of couse with the subsequent "jack rabbit" starts something had to give, and it was the fanbelt between the petrol motor and the alternator. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted, and I now have a belt tensioner so that's another problem overcome.

So, all in all a most successful first run and it definitly encourages me to persue this further.

Grant Alexander
Squirrel Valley Railway,
New Zealand.

Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:11:40 -0700
From: "farside"

Subject: Re: New Loco at Squirrel Valley Railway

The problem is very common, you should have a LARGE henry coil to absob the kick back power, this happens in welders also.Contact a welding supply house. You need this inline of your current system, if not your altenator will burnn also. Be aware that the henry or choke coil gets really hot. Put a blower and houseing by the engineer for heat in the winter.

Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:06:10 +1300
From: "Grant Alexander"

Subject: Re: New Loco at Squirrel Valley Railway

A large "Henry" coil? You mean an inductor? Isn't the problem caused by the field windings already being an inductor, won't this just make it worse, or am I severly ignorant? I hoped that a big reverse biased diode (35amps, 400V) across the windings would shunt this surge down.


Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:53:58 -0700
From: "farside"

Subject: Re: New Loco at Squirrel Valley Railway

Same thing different school. If (I remember my design ) your kick back amprege is close to 4 times the rated power. So 20amps can peak to 80 amps. This is why "The Coil" Heats and absorbs the 1 second of high amprege. Each time you produce more power than you use you get kick back. Thats why regenerative breaking is nice on 1-1 scale units. The excessive power is stored in traction batteries and then to resistence units.
I once worked on an electric car we used a 5.5 hp briggs engine to a generator then to a battery bank then a "chopper" and the to the electric motors. We used NO Electronics to speak of, Even handmade on own voltage chopper. The car could crawl at a pace slower than you could walk and could go 70MPH. Range was around 30 miles if you didnt burn the wheels off. I belive I still have all the original drawings, schematics and notes. Gas was to cheap then to make it pay off. Sorry for rambling hope this helps

Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 09:35:48 -0800
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Merry Christmas To One And All!

Wishing You All A Merry Christmas and A Happy Year In 2002!

A Christmas Card To Everyone...............

Look for more pixs of Live Steaming in the coming year and beyond.

Dan Morris

Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:01:38 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Holiday greetings

Hello all,

first, let me wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and a peaceful holiday season.

Now, that the end of the year is approaching really fast, I wish to thank you all for making the 7-plus-ngm mailing-list such a great success for me. We are nearing the 300 line of subscribers, and the second year isn't over.

As I started this list in 2000, I never expected to get so much subscribers for such a specialized group. Narrow Gauge on 7.25" gauge and wider, that are so hugh models.
But all of you seem to love this scale's, and so I'm happy.

If I sometimes fail to stop some thread - like the discussion "Armed Forces Pay" - I wish to apologize. But my main-goal is to let the list run really free and only to supervise it. I think, we are rouled enough by others, so we should have some free in our hobby.
On the other hand, living on the other side of the pond in Germany, I get my daily-digest one day later, so often I'm not able to interrupt something earlier.
But the good thing is, that most time the group clears it by itself.

So, let me close with the best wishes for the next week and the hope to see some of you sometimes again. Hope to come over in june 2003 for the Train Mountain Triennial.

Sincerely yours

Hubert Wetekamp
Owner of the 7-plus-ngm-mailing-list