7+-NGM-logo The

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 19:38:25 -0000
From: "Bill C."

Subject: Re: Boiler flue rollers

I cannot seem to open the link, wonder why? Is my machine taking charge again or what? I'd like to see the shop made flue tube roller by FLS.

Bill Clemens

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 13:17:18 -0800
From: Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

Subject: Train Mountain DVD

Bruce, Greg et al,
I've been trying to find out how to buy on of these DVDs. They seem to be very exclusive as no one has come forward with required detail. Is it "If you weren't there you don't get one??" Actually I'm kidding but it would be nice to have one as I've yet to make it to Train Mountain after all these years of living on the correct (left) side of the continent.
kind regards
Secretary Vancouver Island Model Engineers
Envision whirled peas. Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:59:31 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: Train Mountain DVD Video

Anyone wanting the new DvD of Train Mountain can order online at http://www.discoverlivesteam.com >or from the pages of 7+ Narrow Gauge magazine, by Robinson Associates.
7-Plus-NGM Digest December 2003

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 23:31:36 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: Dead

Where has all the people gone, long time passing

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 01:46:59 -0000
From: "chevwilliam"

Subject: Re: Dead

I suspect they are all busy with the holiday planning and preparation, "Honey Dos", and sundry other time eaters.
I have been busy cleaning out my e-mail boxes as they are getting bloated, one had over 500 messages waiting.
Oh well, maybe they will be back in Time to wish everyone "Happy Holidays" for the appropriate holiday(s).
Best regards,
William J. Stewart.

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:31:10 -0000
From: "mulinux"

Subject: Re: Dead

They've all been waylaid by a certain narrowgauge group.........just kidding Bill


Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 09:33:34 -0700
From: "Chris Lane"

Subject: Re: Dead

At least some of us are over on the narrowgaugebuilders list gathering up the info for the 2-4-0.

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:35:32 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Re: Dead


I think, they are all on the Narrowgaugebuilders-List following and writing ;-))))


Moderator of the 7-plus-ngm - mailing list

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:57:07 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Narrow Gage Calendar

Thought this might be of interest. Sample photo is pretty good



Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:22:51 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"

Subject: Speeder back on rail ;-)))

Hello all,

in some minutes it will be 5 month ago, that I derailed with my speeder at Bitter Creek & Western and damaged the chain-tensioner.

Since arriving back in Germany, the speeder was sitting on the workbench awaiting the needed repair.

During the past days I removed the bent staybolds, produced new and installed them today. I also changed the gauge back to 7.25" for use over here and installed the 24 volt motor and the drive-chain.

Next I have to do is to produce one new running-board and to install it to the body. And than the speeder will be back in the condition as it was during the Train Mountain Triennial.

I hope, that I will be able to return to Train Mountain with my speeder one day, but that seems to be far away.

All the best from Germany

Moderator of the 7-plus-ngm - mailing list

Visit my 3" scale railroad under http://www.7-plus-ngm.org/pcr">

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:04:46 +0000
From: "Roy Stevens"

Subject: RE: Speeder back on rail ;-)))

Great to hear, now all you need is a flatbed tool car to ride on. :)
Hopefully you make it to our side of the pond again sometime soon.

Roy Stevens
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:17:47 +0100
From: "Hubert Wetekamp"
Subject: Re: Speeder back on rail ;-)))

Hello Roy,

Great to hear, now all you need is a flatbed tool car to ride on. :)

thank you, but I have a riding-car from my other train. And also a couple of 4-wheel-cars, which can be modified to a riding-car.

Hopefully you make it to our side of the pond again sometime soon.

I will come back, but I don't know when. Might be, that I will be able to make a dream true and to come over with my Vanagon and it's travel-trailer (www.thegallopinggoose.de).
Since I now have to Vanagons (I bought in august a cargo-van with airbrush on both sides - a steam-passenger-train from the 19th century with an american leading) it might be possible in future, to ship the second Vanagon and the trailer over and than to travel around the states for a couple of weeks.
And with shipping the Vanagon over it might be possible to put the Speeder into the car, which will cost no additional fees ;-)))

Thank you


Visit my 3" scale railroad

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:06:05 -0000
From: "Chris Allan"

Subject: Joshua Tree and Southern GSD workdays.

Notice: Joshua Tree and Southern Grand Scale Division (15" gauge) workdays are now scheduled for the 2nd Saturday of each month, except June, July, and August. This should give everyone plenty of time to plan a trip out to our beautiful desert. Come out for some hard work, good clean fun, and bring some meat for the evening BBQ! - Chris Allan
For more info email me at wsflco@earthlink.net
GSD homepage
JT&S RR Museum mainsite

Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:07:06 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: Steam news from around the world

Rob Dickinson has been to China where there has been a recent discovery (by Westerner's) of a coal mining system on the far north east coast at Nanpiao.


His usual entertaining report contains some really good photography.... and, includes a report of a narrow gage cable operated tramway.



In Cuba, most of the steam fleet is now retired due to a reduced global demand for sugar and, an influx of Canadian diesels.

The report below gives an idea of what is left on the various gages and further discusses some recent steam festivals.



I shall be traveling from January 5th to February 9th in New Zealand and Australia. I would like to take this opportunity to wish you all Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year.


Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:27:47 -0000
From: "Bill C."

Subject: Copper and stainless

Has anyone ever tried silver soldering a copper firebox to the mudring of a welded stainless steel boiler? Heat conductivity would be good with the copper firebox and flues along with the corrosion resistance of a stainless steel shell. I'm wondering about the thermal expansion over time on the bond line...

Bill Clemens

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:24:15 -0800
From: George Potter

Subject: Re: Copper and stainless

HI Bill,

Why A Stainless Steel Shell? There have been several threads on the unsuitability for stainless in boilers (on the Live Steamers List at least) .........

The second part of my question is, if you do a copper firebox (and I assume flues), so that only the shell is steel (not stainless) you shouldn't have a longevity problem (of the shell).

I'm working (with a group) restoring a Shay (1907) that ran for almost 50 years (and sitting since) ..... and the boiler shell is still in good condition. I believe that if you talk to others who have had to repair / replace boilers on their live steamers, the failures weren't of the shell, but principally tube & tube sheet failures.

Kind of answering your question .... I have silver soldered copper tubes to a tube sheet (1/2" steel plate), and my only comment is that it takes lots of heat (rosebud tip on oxyacetalene, at least) (and probably some supplemental heating - I had a ring of fire surrounding the boiler - natural gas fired to help heat the entire tube sheet) ...... you have to be very carefull not to burn what your trying to heat (heat concentrated on 1 spot).

George Potter
Placerville, California

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:51:31 -0000
From: billsand@cox.net

Subject: Re: Copper and stainless

Hello George,

What sort of unsuitability do you speak of about stainless steel?

I was inquiring about a situation, or more; a specific application of copper, silver soldered to a corrosive resistant grade of stainless steel in an environment of rising and falling temperatures. The joint on flat, long, narrow areas such as the mud ring of a small boiler would be subject to the thermal expansion from ambient temperature to about 320(?) degrees at 100 lbs of steam pressure. The expansion coefficient is within 10% (better would be 5%) between the 110 copper and say 316 stainless.
Is this a fatigue situation that will crack the joint, or is the coefficient close enough to allow uniform expansion with the copper, silver solder and stainless steel as a unit? Anyone?

Silver soldering copper flue tubes to steel or copper flue sheets is a bit different than what I was inquiring about. I also realize that carbon steel of a good grade is fine for a boiler but again, it has little to do with this question.

The thought is that stainless has poor thermal conductivity so it would be a poor firebox or transferer of heat. Copper is the opposite; good thermal conductivity and some grades expand at the same rate as some grades of stainless. So why not construct a small boiler utilizing the best of both elements as a unit? - stainless shell and copper heat transfer areas inside, firebox and flues - why not?

Your second question seems to regard galvonic corrosion. Carbon steel and copper in a wet, conductive environment will self destruct, but in the level of our small boilers much time would be needed to do noticable damage. The margin of safety in these small boilers is so much greater than full sized; you cannot scale tensile strength, likewise the effects of galvonic corrosion. Scale thickness sheets and tubes? - no way! That would be substantially below the margin!

Thanks again! I appreciate the advice and info,
Bill Clemens

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:05:44 -0000
From: mosquitojunction@netscape.net

Subject: RE: Copper and Stainless

I have been building boilers for about 30 years. My advice is DON'T DO IT...... The copper will expand and contract at an alarming rate, Whilst the stainless is less responsive to heat. Also stainless can crack under sever heat. We have built stainless boilers, 3/8 thick and the flue sheets and crown sheet SS. The copper flues were rolled in and not soldered. If you solder them, they will expand, and the joint will not allow for it.
I hope this helps,
Stay safe, Bill
Southern Locomotive Works, and The Mosquito Junction & Western R/R

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 20:07:07 -0000
From: chevwilliam@earthlink.net

Subject: Re: copper firebox in a stainless boiler...

several years ago Tom Miller had a UP4-8-8-4 built in England, it had a stainless steel boiler.
I believe tom looked into alloys and chose either 321 or 327 for suitable characteristics for boiler use. He also stated that he would ALWAYS use boiler treeatments to avoid clord stress cracking and other problems associated with stainless steels, heat and boiling water, especially tap water, at elevated pressures.
As to differences between copper, silver solder, and stainless steel, The firebox gets much hotter than the mud ring gets hotter than the shell. As the Shell is only heated by the boiling water inside the boiler, and the mud ring has added conductive heating from the firebox in contact with it, I would guess that the actual expansions for equal Temperature coefficent of expansions would differ.
I guess that is why Licensed Professional Engineers get so much money for their work.
Anyway, If you take the relative temperatures into consideration and choose your alloys carefully, you should be able to minimise the differential expansion, at least at some particular temperature or temperature range. you would need to bring the shell, mud ring, and firebox to a common temperature at the time of joining in order to get things to minimum differential under operating conditions after soldering/brazing the joint(s).
Using various metals in a boiler environment is possible but you need to be very knowledgable of the possible interactions with hot water/contaminants, hot gasses, etc over time, after all a boiler failure under operating pressure and temperature could give us all a bad time.
Best Regards,
William J. Stewart.
PS: using scale sizes for boiler components is not necessarily bad, it depends on the original and the scale. We do NOT operate at the same pressures of most full size steam locomotives of the 20th century. WJS.
I have seen the results of cloride stress corrosion on some stainless steel (result of salt spray on outside of an exhaust pipe) and it

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 01:25:14 -0000
From: mosquitojunction@netscape.net

Subject: Boiler flue rollers

For those interested, Live steam, and Modeltec, both have had rollrs and flue expanders in thier mags. Check back issues.

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:59:36 -0800
From: "Daniel F. Morris"

Subject: Railfanning Radio Frequencies/Streaming Audio

At the KLS lunch bunch today I made mention of an outstanding railfanning web site. This site has streaming live audio of communications such as BNSF's Seattle Sub and track detectors. This excellent site also covers railroads in other parts of the U.S. that maybe of interest? Check out this site at: http://www.railroadradio.net/index.php


Dan Morris

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:58:40 +0200
From: "Johan"

Subject: RE: Boiler flue rollers

As previously mentioned.....i do not have any of the Magazines mentioned. Is it maybe possible to, either, e-mail me the drawings or place it in the "Files" section. Better still...could it be uploaded to the UK site.? http://narrowgaugebuilders.serverbox.org/


Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 09:56:55 -0500
From: Kenneth Chenard

Subject: Re: Boiler flue rollers

Johan and List,

A design for a shop made roller can be found at:


Ken Chenard

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:41:17 +0200
From: "Johan"

Subject: RE: Boiler flue rollers

Hi Ken,
Thanks a million for the information, it sure as "heck" will come in handy.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:33:39 -0000
From: "mosquitojunction"

Subject: RE: Boiler flue rollers

Thanks Ken,
Johan, I am a member of the FLS ( Florida Live Steamers) and this is the flue roller that i use. I was going to put it up when the time came to use it in our group. We are still aways from the boiler. I hope you got everything needed so far. Did you get the e-mail from me??
OK, I'll see you all on the other group.

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:17:06 -0800
From: Trevor Heath

Subject: RE: Digest Number 906

He still has the loco. It still has its Stainless boiler. The loco is now over 20 years old.


Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:04:16 -0000
From: "Tim Couling"

Subject: Now we're getting somewhere.....

Evening all,

I have just attached the latest photo of "Athelstan", in the file of the same name, which is being built at the Moors Valley Railway, Dorset, UK.

It's starting to take shape at last, with only the boiler wrapper, cab roof and cylinder covers remaining before the cosmetic side is complete. However much of the mechanical side is still to be done, all of which centres around the cab controls. They have been intentionally left to this stage because until now I have had little idea of how much space would be available in the cab.

Nevertheless plasma cuts have been ordered for steam brake & handbrake components and assembly started of the (lever) reverser.
Still on track for steaming at Easter 2004.....just.

Happy steaming (or dieseling, petrolling, paraffining, pushing!) for 2004.



Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:11:42 -0700
From: "Lewis, Woody"

Subject: RE: The following note is for Robert Morris

Hello All,

Does anyone have the url for the "NarrowGaugeBuilders" Website?

Woody Lewis Colorado Springs

Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:40:50 -0800
From: "Robert Morris"

Subject: RE: The following note is for Robert Morris

Hello Woody,

You should be able to access it here:


If this doesn't work I would just go to the main Yahoo Groups Web-Site and search for it.

Happy Holliday's,

Robert M.

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:39:14 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: A question for Texas or Oklahoma Members

Hi Folks:

A friend of mine is moving to Amarillo, Texas in his job as a Signal Supervisor for the BNsf. He has a 7-1/2" gauge Little Engines Pacific and some track, which he is removing from his property up here. Is there a club or group in the Amarillo area that he could get acquainted with?


Mike Decker

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 17:48:56 EST
From: Jubilatede@aol.com

Subject: Re: A question for Texas or Oklahoma Members

Is the lower case sf cirect in the BNsf context?

Cam Brown

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:57:12 -0600
From: "Bill Laird"

Subject: Re: A question for Texas or Oklahoma Members


The Southwest Live Steamers are a group that hold meets throughout the year at various tracks in Texas and Oklahoma. Check out their web site at: http://www.swlsonline.org/

We would also welcome your friend at the Wimberley, Blanco and Southern, a private 7 1/2" gauge track with a 6500' double tracked mainline, located about halfway between Austin and San Antonio. It would be a bit far for him to commute each weekend, about an 8 or 10 hour drive, but perhaps he could come check us out some weekend. Just have him contact me for an invite.

The invitation to visit the WB&S is open to all live steamers, please just contact us first to make sure someone will be at the track to meet you.

Bill Laird
General Superintendent of Operations
Wimberley, Blanco & Southern Railroad
"The Bluebonnet Route"

Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 20:53:07 -0700
From: "Mike Decker"

Subject: Re: A question for Texas or Oklahoma Members

Hi Cam:

It is if you work on the BN :>)

Mike Decker